13 replies to this topic

[John Mechlane]

I noticed this a long time ago, still can't find an explanation.

I have a Cata 4x with quad AC2. Two kinds of groupings:

1.grouping: All four ACs are in group one, and shot at the same time - as fast as possible. 4 shots under 0.52s

2. grouping: Two ACs are in group one, the other two in group two. I shoot them as fast as i can, with group two delayed a little....let's say 0.25sec (for more dakka™ ) still only 4 shots under 0.52s

Why is it that if I shoot them all at once (grouping 1), I can send 3 times more shots downrange before overheating?

Could someone please explain?

(i know it has something to do with heat penalty, but why do i get penalized less, if i shoot them all together?)

Edited by JaniTheWeedman, 30 December 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Because Ghost Heat is bugged (and incredibly stupid) and they never bothered to fix it.

Then again, they never bothered to give it a UI either in-sim or in-mechlab, either.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

As I understand it, the AC/2 is also the reason they disabled the functionality of the 'Fast Fire' elite pilot skill. It's good to see that their efforts to balance skills, weapons and heat is so effective.

/sarcasm.

On a more serious note, this video and this thread show the same issue. I'm not sure there are any explicit plans to fix it.

[John Mechlane]

This kinda sucks. I loved my quad AC2 build before they implemented heat penalties. Now i can only shoot them together...but it's not the same

[Doctor Proctor]

Ghost Heat resets every .50 seconds. So, in the case of firing 4 at once, you get the penalty for one AC/2 over the limit, .50 seconds pass and then .02 and your 4xAC/2 goes off again, giving you the normal heat plus the penalty for one AC/2 over the limit.

In the case of scenario #2 Ghost Heat isn't resetting between bursts. So you're firing 2 AC/2's, .25 seconds later you fire 2 more (one of which triggers Ghost Heat) and .25 seconds later you fire 2 more (both of which trigger Ghost Heat because it's never reset) and .25 seconds later....well, you get the drift.

Think of it this way: remember the old 6 PPC Stalker? What if it fired one PPC, then .1 seconds later fired another, then .1 seconds fired another and so on? It would fire all 6 PPC's in .6 seconds, which would still be quite a bit more devastating than firing 2 PPC, .5 seconds later firing 2 more and then .5 seconds later firing 2 more. You would expect that it would incur Ghost Heat when using the .1 second interval though to prevent firing all 6 of them that fast. (Heck, with a macro you could go .01 seconds between shots so that they're all almost simultaneous). The only reason it seems counterintuitive is because the recycle time on AC/2's is very close to the reset time for Ghost Heat.

[John Mechlane]

Thank you all for the explanations. Now it's crystal clear. So nothing to do but wait for PGI to fix it....which could take...forever.

[Lord Letto]

Overheat on coldest map with just Dual AC/2:


AC/2 = Worse than ERPPC?

[John Mechlane]

I always liked the suppressive capabilities of the AC2s, but that's more effective with staggerfire. Most people hate on the poor AC2...they just don't understand it. Haters gonna hate...

Actually, I never had any problems with 6PPC stalkers (no, i never used one), they had insane alphas, but that came with a cost, as all boating does...especially on slow mechs like the stalker. This whole heat penalty is just a way from PGI to shut up the whiners

Edited by JaniTheWeedman, 30 December 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Victor Morson]

JaniTheWeedman, on 30 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Thank you all for the explanations. Now it's crystal clear. So nothing to do but wait for PGI to fix it....which could take...forever.

Your best bet is to swap to AC/5s, which don't even have a Ghost Heat limit.

Largely because there wasn't some sweeping, poorly understood change to them on the account nobody was whining about them. People used to cry about 6 AC/2s all the time despite the fact the config was never, ever good.

[QuimMorius]

JaniTheWeedman, on 30 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Thank you all for the explanations. Now it's crystal clear. So nothing to do but wait for PGI to fix it....which could take...forever.

It's not gonna be "fixed" as it is working as intended. They want us to avoid stagger fire because of server hit detection overload.

[990Dreams]

Victor Morson, on 30 December 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Because Ghost Heat is bugged (and incredibly stupid) and they never bothered to fix it.

How? Heat has an accumulative effect, cooling doesn't. It is as simple as that. More heat sinks would help to negate the accumulation though. That plus some other glitches causes me to agree that ghost heat is bugged,

JaniTheWeedman, on 30 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

This whole heat penalty is just a way from PGI to shut up the whiners

There is that too. People here never seem to understand that their complaints can easily be circumvented with a tactical review and revise. Instead, it is PGI/the game's fault.

[Fuggles]

You. Can fire up to 3 at the same time with no heat penalty. If you stager fire even 2, you will get escalating heat penalties.

So, with your 4x I suggest finding a similar loadout like 2ac5/2ac2 to replace it with, and make sure you fire the ac2s at the same time. There's lots of other options, uac5/ac2, lb10/ac2, 3xac2 / ac10, 4x ac5 etc.

I certainly do miss my 4xac2 builds(especially on my jager s) but the ones I listed are just as efffective.

[Reno Blade]

Doctor Proctor, on 30 December 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Ghost Heat resets every .50 seconds. So, in the case of firing 4 at once, you get the penalty for one AC/2 over the limit, .50 seconds pass and then .02 and your 4xAC/2 goes off again, giving you the normal heat plus the penalty for one AC/2 over the limit.

In the case of scenario #2 Ghost Heat isn't resetting between bursts. So you're firing 2 AC/2's, .25 seconds later you fire 2 more (one of which triggers Ghost Heat) and .25 seconds later you fire 2 more (both of which trigger Ghost Heat because it's never reset) and .25 seconds later....well, you get the drift.

Think of it this way: remember the old 6 PPC Stalker? What if it fired one PPC, then .1 seconds later fired another, then .1 seconds fired another and so on? It would fire all 6 PPC's in .6 seconds, which would still be quite a bit more devastating than firing 2 PPC, .5 seconds later firing 2 more and then .5 seconds later firing 2 more. You would expect that it would incur Ghost Heat when using the .1 second interval though to prevent firing all 6 of them that fast. (Heck, with a macro you could go .01 seconds between shots so that they're all almost simultaneous). The only reason it seems counterintuitive is because the recycle time on AC/2's is very close to the reset time for Ghost Heat.

All weapons affected by "Ghost Heat" resets if you do not shoot another one in the 0.5sec chainfire time.
In case of AC2, its easy to get a lot of ghost heat if you machine-gun fire multiple groups in intervalls below 0.5sec.
Do always shoot all your AC2s together (0.52 sec) and you will be fine.

In case of PPCs, its limit is 2 together in 0.5 sec.
If you shoot 6 PPCs without any >0.5s break, you will overheat like hell.

Here are some graphs for easy overview of how much heat you can expect for the weapons:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2577091

The official post back when the heat penalties were introduced can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

Since the PPCs got changed to 10 heat, you need to look at the orange curve here:

[Hex Pallett]

JaniTheWeedman, on 30 December 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

(i know it has something to do with heat penalty, but why do i get penalized less, if i shoot them all together?)

Because AC2 spam, especially with mouse macro, is annoying and exploitative. The hit sound and minor screen shake could basically impale the target from shooting with any accuracy.