440 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

So the one Spider-specific test that was done with hit detection isn't reproducable anymore, which would imply that the issue was resolved, and what the problem is is just hit detection in general.

Of course, anyone who plays the game knows that Spiders are way tougher than they should be. So they must be bugged, right? Nope. The only unfair thing it has going for it is the sloppy hit detection that all mechs can get (though it is affected slightly more because it's so small).

So what gives? What makes the Spider special? It's all in the design. The Spider is not just small; it has very thin legs (that are also fairly close together which makes it easier to protect one leg), and it's a very vertical design - it doesn't have a long or wide body like the other lights; it has articulated arms that will protect the torso from at least some of the fire coming at it; and it has well-divided hitboxes that make it near impossible to target a specific component on the torso.


Let's take a look at the other lights.
Raven: Very long torso, and reasonably wide. It makes up for this by having long ST hitboxes that often cause torso damage to spread. What isn't made up for, is the Raven's gigantic leg hitboxes, which were introduced pre-HSR as a nerf to the 3L (the 2X and 4X just being collateral).
Verdict: Is a fairly good design, though the long torso makes CT-protecting difficult, and the giant legs really hold back its survivability. Also, it's fairly large for a light.

Jenner: Probably scaled a little smaller than it should be, but has very thick legs, and is basically nothing but CT. It has more total armour than the Spider, but its legs are huge in comparison, and it has a nigh-unmissable CT.
Verdict: Undersized, but doesn't matter, because most of the armour is rendered moot by its giant CT.

Commando: I haven't actually piloted the COM, and they're such a rare sight now, but from my experience, the Commando has very low armor, and a very wide torso. It's the only light mech that I can consistently target a side torso on the move.
Verdict: Oversized, under-armoured, and can't protect specific components to save its life.

Locust: Barely shorter than the Spider, with longer, thicker legs, a much longer and wider torso, and only about 60% of the armour.
Verdict: Grossly oversized, large legs, easy-to-hit torso, virtually no armour.


So yeah. The Spider just has the best design of all the lights. It's hard to hit, has great hitbox divisions, tiny legs, and gets Jumpjets and an ECM variant. It's not bugged. It's not broken. It just doesn't have a crippling drawback like every other light does.



Also, please stop using the AC20 as a frame of reference. It has absolutely terrible hit detection. I've put 3 AC20 shells into the rear CT of a nearly-stationary Atlas (and they did register as hits to me) and did basically no damage. Hit detection is bad, and the AC20 is even worse than usual.


Problem is, you can't re-engineer the Spider to be a worse design without redoing the whole mech, and the other lights are pretty well stuck as they are, though the Raven could use a hitbox-revert, and the Jenner could use a hitbox adjustment to help protect the CT a little bit.

If the spider needs a nerf, the easiest way would be to either make the CT hitbox larger, making it easier to core; or make it smaller, and make it easier to side-core, since pretty much everyone uses XL engines.

[FupDup]

The Spider's "hidden" flaw is its hardpoints: the ECM variant only gets 3 lasers and the MG variant...uses MGs. Jenners pack a lot more of a whallup than the Spidey does.

Edited by FupDup, 20 October 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Kitane]

Spider could be simply made larger. It is way too small compared to other light mechs.

A Commando is a bigger target from the front.
Jenner and Raven are chicken walkers that should be smaller at least from the front than a less efficient humanoid shape, even if it has ~13% less total mass. They are larger from the front, significantly larger from sides and just as tall.

[Sable Dove]

FupDup, on 20 October 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

The Spider's "hidden" flaw is its hardpoints: the ECM variant only gets 3 lasers and the MG variant...uses MGs. Jenners pack a lot more of a whallup than the Spidey does.

That's true, but I meant more a defensive flaw. No one complains that the Spiders have too much firepower. Jenner can fit 6 ML to the Spider's 3, but the Spider effectively has ~100 armour because it can spread damage, whereas the Jenner would be lucky to have 50 effective armour because it's hard not to hit the CT.

That said, anything with streaks will annihilate the 5K and 5V, and if they have BAP, the 5D won't do much better.

Edited by Sable Dove, 20 October 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Mycrus]

Spiders are broken, and I'm saying that on the basis of having mastered all light chassis and all variants (sans locusts which I'm still working on).

I'm not technical enough to say with certainty what exactly is causing the issue but we should not see spiders tanking damage way more than any of the lights should be able to do.

[Deathlike]

Outside of the strangeness of the hitboxes, the Spider is designed pretty well.

The ironic thing is that by comparison, the Commando is a lot more squishy than the Spider. The armor is obviously and naturally worse than the Spider, but it is easier to be taken down due it being a bit "wider"

[akpavker]

spiders will likely be fine when HSR is fix.....at a guess when/if they do fix HSR id say people will be on the forums complaining that they are to easy to kill.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Personally I find spiders broken in the sense that damage spreads out across them so much you have to do twice the damage of their armor+internals to kill one. This is coming from a medium pilot who regularly stays at base to defend and has to deal with multiple spiders. I'll look at the end damage once the match is over and think... what the heck, I did over 370+ against just two spiders and only one of them died.

Broken mechs indeed.

[Sable Dove]

akpavker, on 20 October 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

spiders will likely be fine when HSR is fix.....at a guess when/if they do fix HSR id say people will be on the forums complaining that they are to easy to kill.

I honestly doubt it. As I said, most of the Spider's toughness comes from its design. Though it does benefit a bit more from the bad hit detection, odds are it will still be the toughest light. Fixing HSR is going to hurt all lights to some extent. The Spider doesn't get so much more benefit than other lights that fixing HSR will make it suddenly weak in comparison.

[FupDup]

Sable Dove, on 20 October 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

I honestly doubt it. As I said, most of the Spider's toughness comes from its design. Though it does benefit a bit more from the bad hit detection, odds are it will still be the toughest light. Fixing HSR is going to hurt all lights to some extent. The Spider doesn't get so much more benefit than other lights that fixing HSR will make it suddenly weak in comparison.

The thing is, hits on the other lights already do register dramatically more often than they do against the Spidey. The Spider, on the other hand, may (or may not) see a sudden increase in damage received when this HSR mess is finally ironed out.

We should probably fix the hitreg bugs before we make any actual balancing changes, because balancing around bugs ends badly (i.e. 1.5 SRMs for several months due to borked splash damage, overbuffed PPCs for 6 months after they finally could register damage reliably, 0.9 LRMs in response to Lurmageddon, oversized Raven leg hitboxes, etc). It's a lurking variable that we're going to have to deal with before we do anything that might not turn out so well down the road.

Edited by FupDup, 20 October 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Spiders already fight against people with low ping who can aim so it won't be that different unless they fix HSR by adding a "close enough" feature.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Corwin Vickers, on 21 October 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Spiders already fight against people with low ping who can aim so it won't be that different unless they fix HSR by adding a "close enough" feature.

This game comes with a "close enough" feature. Try playing in 3rd person and you'll see it.

The first and only time I thought a guy was hacking, I watched the arm of his mech + beams as he discharged a LL alpha glance the ground near my mech then magically stick to one of my legs like a magnet and stay on it as I moved with pinpoint accuracy. With his 800+ ping I thought, no way that guy could have been that accurate until I noticed he was in 3rd person. After some testing of my own after that, I always switch to 3rd person to deal with spiders now. It helps in more ways than one.

Edited by lockwoodx, 21 October 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[Lupin]

First I have to ask if this is TROLL topic? Given the video evidence showing Spider not taking damage.

Playing on Crimson Strait yesterday in a BJ-3 with 3xER Lasers I played the whole game in combat with 1 Spider. Keeping it from being a pain to team.
Match results shows 250 damage. No kill.

Have no problem with Locusts, one good clean hit and down they go.
But even a well placed AC20 or 3xER Lasers 27pt in the back as Mech runs off is not right.

[Mehlan]

Lupin, on 21 October 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

First I have to ask if this is TROLL topic? Given the video evidence showing Spider not taking damage.

Playing on Crimson Strait yesterday in a BJ-3 with 3xER Lasers I played the whole game in combat with 1 Spider. Keeping it from being a pain to team.
Match results shows 250 damage. No kill.

Have no problem with Locusts, one good clean hit and down they go.
But even a well placed AC20 or 3xER Lasers 27pt in the back as Mech runs off is not right.

And ignoring the vids were they appear to be fine?

[MuonNeutrino]

Spider hitreg is not significantly worse than other mechs. The OP is right - it's simply that they are very small targets and don't have the same disproportionate hitboxes that other lights do. This is a good explanation of some of the issues:

http://mwomercs.com/...ossible-to-hit/

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=1CkiNvfy1vs


Yep, totally a well designed mech with no glaring flaws at all.

[DocBach]

Engineers designed the spider to be constructed from the same material they use in the 31st century make light poles and antennas therefore making them indestructible.

[Joseph Mallan]

For 30 years a spider was a POS. But that was only if you used it as-is-out-o-the-box. Even the 3050 upgrades sucked eggs.

[Roughneck45]

I agree.

People miss their shots against them more than anything else, then whine about hit reg. Sure, the hit reg needs a lot of work, but the spider is just a difficult target to land shots on. It's really the only advantage it has.

Edited by Roughneck45, 21 October 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

https://plus.google....sts/bW5qtbXVKDU