87 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

LastPaladin, on 21 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

If MWO's business model is dependent on keeping C-bill income low in order to force people to buy premium time, then it's a losing model and the game will fail anyway. The ones hit hardest by low income are the newer players, and the newer players are the ones most likely to say "forget it" and go play another game. You need to win over those players and retain them first, THEN you try to put the squeeze on them for money once they are hooked. If you do it the other way, and put the squeeze on them before they are hooked on the game, they just walk.

That is why they put in the cadet bonus ... folks won't have a clue about the c-bill income until they have played 30 matches or so which is probably enough to decide whether they like the game or not.

[LastPaladin]

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Dunno where you get your economics. But I'm not seeing how people are forced to play and purchase Premium. I've been playing since closed beta and the only premium I've had was the one given with the Phoenix pack. No PGI enforcer squad showed up at my door and asked for "Premium protection money"

Hmm, in case you didn't notice, I was replying to the OP, who is the one that contended that the c-bill earnings need to be low in order to force people to buy premium time. So if you have a problem with that contention, then take it up with him, not me.

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

If the "purchase premium model to gain 50% more cred" is a losing model, Wargaming.net must be so hurting right now. I mean, they've been desperately trying to push version 8.11? and develop WoWp and WoBS. Gasp. The horror. They're so poor the CEO is spending money to dig up WW2 spitfires. PGI is goin down that aweful road with this model. NO!

I never said that premium time was a losing model, I said that keeping c-bill income low in order to force people into buying premium time would be a losing model. Maybe if you had grasped that distinction, you might have had a point.

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

By the way - the hardest hit catagory isn't that hard hit. The group of new players I've introduced aren't having much trouble with the Cadet bonus and premium they gave away over the holidays.

Yeah, and after they have spent that on one mech, they will be stuck in the grind with everyone else, except they won't have a reserve of c-bills built up during the glory days of easy money, or a garage full of mechs that they can scavenge for XL engines and other pricey parts when they want to customize. So, yes, they are still the hardest hit demographic in the game.

[LastPaladin]

Mawai, on 21 January 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

That is why they put in the cadet bonus ... folks won't have a clue about the c-bill income until they have played 30 matches or so which is probably enough to decide whether they like the game or not.

Sure, it's a band-aid, but I think it only delays a lot of the disillusionment. Especially when you consider that you'll get maybe one well equipped mech with that bonus, but you need at least 3 in order to really start getting an even footing with other players, since you need to unlock masteries. So the grind begins before they have even had a chance to fight without a handicap.

[KAT Ayanami]

This is beyond ridiculous.

The complaint most people have are 2.

- Paid items are TOO expensive.
- The game is going nowhere.

You know how much MW4 cost me back in the day? About $20. And I got a full game. Full of mechs, weapons, missions, objectives, gameplay, etc....
And you know the best part? I can still pick it up from the shelf and play it again.

To play MWO you need to spend about $200 or so. And what do you get? Some premium time? Some mech bays?? Maybe one or two Hero mechs?
And you know the best part? Once this game dies. You end up with nothing.


I am not against PGI making money. I would love for them to get even richer. What I am against is spending $20 on a single mech.

And for the love of God, stop talking about the Packs being a great deal!
If I sell you one peanut for $20, and then offer you 50 peanuts for $100, do not think is a great deal!!! One peanut is not worth $20 to begin with! Same with the mechs, colors or bays!

Now, back to MW4mercs.

[Dymlos2003]

KAT Ayanami, on 21 January 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

This is beyond ridiculous.

The complaint most people have are 2.

- Paid items are TOO expensive.
- The game is going nowhere.

You know how much MW4 cost me back in the day? About $20. And I got a full game. Full of mechs, weapons, missions, objectives, gameplay, etc....
And you know the best part? I can still pick it up from the shelf and play it again.

To play MWO you need to spend about $200 or so. And what do you get? Some premium time? Some mech bays?? Maybe one or two Hero mechs?
And you know the best part? Once this game dies. You end up with nothing.


I am not against PGI making money. I would love for them to get even richer. What I am against is spending $20 on a single mech.

And for the love of God, stop talking about the Packs being a great deal!
If I sell you one peanut for $20, and then offer you 50 peanuts for $100, do not think is a great deal!!! One peanut is not worth $20 to begin with! Same with the mechs, colors or bays!

Now, back to MW4mercs.

K bye

[Corvin Reinhardt]

I don't know what games you guys grew up playing but where I come from, paying real money for something as simple as a mech bay and a paint job seems ludicrous to me.

As much as I love this game and the battletech franchise, I have a hard time being able to comprehend forking out hundreds of dollars for something I don't even physically own. I have a business where people do something similar and I kinda just laugh while politely thanking them.

I bought Overlord Phoenix pack but felt it wasn't really worth the money. The $90(AUD) I spent could have bought enough groceries to feed me for a week.

Next time I open my wallet will be for the Mechs I absolutely adore if they are reasonably priced.

[rolly]

LastPaladin, on 21 January 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

I never said that premium time was a losing model, I said that keeping c-bill income low in order to force people into buying premium time would be a losing model. Maybe if you had grasped that distinction, you might have had a point.

....

Yeah, and after they have spent that on one mech, they will be stuck in the grind with everyone else, except they won't have a reserve of c-bills built up during the glory days of easy money, or a garage full of mechs that they can scavenge for XL engines and other pricey parts when they want to customize. So, yes, they are still the hardest hit demographic in the game.

Losing model - nope. Hasn't failed yet. I still don't see how people are "forced" to do anything, including play this or any other MMORPG game that is F2P. You know, Free to Play, not Forced to Pay/Play.

Perhaps you should clarify why and how exactly people are forced to hand over their credit card information to PGI? Frankly, there is nothing wrong with this system. It creates demand, and in any basic economy its how much the supply is worth.

I quote: "stuck in the grind WITH everyone else". Further more... so what? They join late, they miss the free drinks, resets and countless bugs since Closed Beta. In addition, this game is in Beta. Which often refers to a game in development and subject to change. You're speaking about this demographic of new players like they're a group of Lower Socio-Economic status citizens. Which they're not.

Case in point. The group of 6-8 players who've just joined me, don't just have one mech. Multiple mechs with goodies. First example. - Purchased Stalker -5m and K2 Catapult with cadet bonus and free premium, second and third new players joined got Hunchback then Atlas then another Atlas. You're one mech theory doesn't even hold up to casual players.

These are average new players, not the the poor downtrodden hurting-for-credits Lower SES you depict.

Edited by rolly, 21 January 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Dragomir Zelenka]

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I quote: "stuck in the grind WITH everyone else". Further more... so what? They join late, they miss the free drinks, resets and countless bugs since Closed Beta. In addition, this game is in Beta. Which often refers to a game in development and subject to change.

"In Beta" loses it's value as an argument when a game has been open to all comers for more than a year, and when the publisher has offered multiple high priced packages for sale to any and all people who want to buy them. This game hasn't been in any sort of "beta" for ages.

I enjoy MWO for what it is, but the grind in this game is silly and counterproductive for long term, sustained growth.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mawai, on 21 January 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

1) The only common knowledge is the $5 million from the original founder's program. No other earnings information has ever been made available to the best of my knowledge. PGI, IGP and 7 are all privately held.

True. But if you consider the amount of people on the forums with fancy new badges, results of public polls on how many people bought phoenix packages and how many bought / planning to buy clan packages you'll get the picture.

Mawai, on 21 January 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

2) You are either completely clueless about coding or being extremely disingenuous (i.e. excessive exaggeration just because you think it makes you sound good and makes PGI look bad). I am quite happy to complain about their slow feature production and inability to hit scheduled for announced targets ... but I don't draw fantasy comparisons to unrealistic figures.

From what was originally mentioned...
Ghost heat ... about 10 new variables and 2 lines of code to add.
Weapon buffs/nerfs ... takes 20 seconds to change variables for each weapon.
If you add gauss rifle changes to weapon buffs/nerfs ... 3 lines of code to change firing mechanics and about two dozen more to add visual and sound effects for charged/discharged state.
Bug fixes and crashes ... different story but it hasn't been fixed as of yet.

Facts remain same regardless. They had a schedule, they are 2 years behind on a hell lot of things from this schedule, they got the money to hire people who can get the job done and yet they don't. Today the game isn't different from what we had in closed beta. Changes are minor at best. Thats not what founders payed their money for.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 22 January 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mawai, on 21 January 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

As for where the money went? No idea but it costs more than $5 million to keep a 50 person development studio and game servers running for a year ... besides which IGP uses the income to fund other games they are developing as well. (but I agree that a greater investment in engineering/development staff would have been a good idea).

Please explain to me just how much you'd spend on running the '50 person development studio and game servers' for a year?

As for funding other games thats their problem not mine. I bet those 'other games' do have their own founders programs and constant sales the revenues from which go to funding some more 'other games'.

[LastPaladin]

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Losing model - nope. Hasn't failed yet. I still don't see how people are "forced" to do anything, including play this or any other MMORPG game that is F2P. You know, Free to Play, not Forced to Pay/Play.

Perhaps you should clarify why and how exactly people are forced to hand over their credit card information to PGI? Frankly, there is nothing wrong with this system. It creates demand, and in any basic economy its how much the supply is worth.

I guess you missed the part where I told you to take this up with the OP, who I was responding to, since it was his contention you seem to have a problem with. Well, I'll tell you again, and maybe it will sink in: take it up with the OP.

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I quote: "stuck in the grind WITH everyone else". Further more... so what? They join late, they miss the free drinks, resets and countless bugs since Closed Beta. In addition, this game is in Beta. Which often refers to a game in development and subject to change. You're speaking about this demographic of new players like they're a group of Lower Socio-Economic status citizens. Which they're not.

Nonsense, I didn't call them that, you did, so don't try to put words in my mouth. I said they were hardest hit by the grind, and explained the reasons. If you want to ignore them, fine, but don't expect the rest of us to join you in that.

rolly, on 21 January 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Case in point. The group of 6-8 players who've just joined me, don't just have one mech. Multiple mechs with goodies. First example. - Purchased Stalker -5m and K2 Catapult with cadet bonus and free premium, second and third new players joined got Hunchback then Atlas then another Atlas. You're one mech theory doesn't even hold up to casual players.

These are average new players, not the the poor downtrodden hurting-for-credits Lower SES you depict.

They're not average new players if they are already in a group with experience players who have been helping them. That should be obvious, I don't know why I even need to point that out. As I said, the money from the cadet bonus will get you about one mech, fully outfitted. My imagination didn't come up with that, it's a pretty well known fact. Again, you can choose to ignore it, but the rest of us have no compulsion to join you.

[Dan Nashe]

I agree c-bills too low.
Here's my hope:

(1) CW will make it more feasible to enjoy playing one mech, although I kind of suspect it will just be normal drops. And everything sounds like it will just be put you in a bucket and do drops. So, not optimistic. (Although I enjoy playing as is).

(2) CW will hopefully introduce things like reduced mech prices for factions. So maybe they're balancing around most mech purchase prices going down by 20% in the future? (Maybe!?)

(3) Deep skill trees are anticipated to increase earnings prior to mastery. Right now mastering a mech earns you like 4 million c-bills.
A mech costs, on average, 12 million c-bills. ESPECIALLY if you're new. [I now own enough Engines I don't have to buy engines when I buy mechs very often. One 300 XL will kill you.].

That's the optimistic side of my brain.
I have a pessimistic side too, but who wants to hear that?
[The current mech prices made a lot of sense when there were only 3 mechs of each weight class.]

[I think they're aiming for (is this how WoT works?) players to see themselves as one kind of mech? I mean, for example, a star citizen ship is like $50-$100 (or more). But players focus on one ship. If you see yourself as an Atlas pilot, you can totally master Atlas's in 3 months. Sounds reasonable! . . . but as a player, that's not how I think. I think you're not even a "regular" until you've mastered at least 4 different chassis. Which is 12 mechs. Different expectations.]

I think they said somewhere that they were pricing the Atlas as a top tier unit like other games. Unfortunately, as a battle tech fan, I don't want to be "that awesome Mad Cat" pilot. I like to change mechs every other drop ;-).

As An Aside: joining a group dramatically reduces earnings usually. You can't leave early if anyone is alive or if anyone is grinding out a particular mech, or is a new player with only one mech. You get delayed by smoke/bio/mechlab breaks - even a couple minutes a game adds up. You have discos and invites and waiting for a 4th who will finish his game in a minute. Your earnings don't go up by that much more. I still recommend it, it's FUN. And you stop watching your earnings. Play with friends for a couple hours, look at stats "Oh, I can buy 4 new skills and earned 2 million c-bills, that's cool." Instead of obsessing over each games earnings.

And solo an average match is at least 10 minutes when you count load in count down and looking at the earnings screen. [It is a game afterall, you shouldn't feel like you have to be go-go-go-go to maximize drops - you should be able to relax, check out your scores, fiddle in the mechlab, et cetera.]

Also: I've been playing a year, used 14 days of premium, have 4 hero mechs. 90k average earnings per game.

All of that said, I'm coming to the conclusion that MWO is actually not bad for a fairly premium FTP game (compare, iPad games) for prices--WoT, Star Citizen. I just personally hate FTP games as a result. It's not that MWO is Bad. It's just that the economics of the whole thing suck :-p.

Although I do worry that PGI might forget that Free Players are Content for us Paying Customers. And I've sunk $185 into this game, which is highly dependent on having lots of people to play with. But, without seeing their books, I can't know for sure.

Also: Also: Premium time costs so much and is worth so little. . . because it doesn't get you any MC, so paying $15 a month for premium time is like the basic rookie costs under the FTP model. That really bugs me about FTP games. If I pay $15 a month for wow, I get everything. If I pay $15 a month for MWO, I get premium time. If I pay $30 a month for MWO, I get one hero mech and some paint or a bobblehead every 2-3 months. [And that's not counting mechbays, GXP conversion, "premium boosters", founder-type packs, and possibly consumable modules--and the camo is by chassis, so if you like it, congratulations, you get to buy it 36 more times.]. And even then you're not super rich--145k a game can be wiped out fast.

Personally, Every premium time purchase of 30 days or more should come with a mechbay, and should award 10 MC a win while active. At the current price. Then I would feel like I"m getting a similar value out of premium that I get out of my $15 a month WoW subscription.

Edited by DanNashe, 22 January 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[Zerberus]

Destructicus, on 21 January 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

This whole thing has been and always will be about money for them.

Any you expected anything else? EVER??

If so, please allow me to welcome you to this strange dimension we live in, where businesses and charities are 2 completely different things

[TehSBGX]

KuritaGuard, on 21 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

This is FREE to play. Usually you go in a store and buy a game for 50-80 euro.
Premium time boosts you 50% and a Hero mech 30%.

Premium time per month : 8 euro

Hero Mech : 8-20 euro

You cant tell me that you have not 28 euro leftover or at least 8 euro per month. Thats not even a meal.

Yes i really complain about C-Bill complainers. If they rise C-Bill income they dont earn money and that means the game will be shut down.

So this is basically a Pay or play game or a Pay or your mechs look green and ugly game.

Check My phoenix tag bro. I've spent lots of cash on this game and I feel C-bill earnings need to be bumped up.

Heres a nice story why, I introduced a friend recently he was having loads of fun then it hit the guy like a load of bricks how grindy the game is and now he doesn't want to play since getting new mechs and experimenting is too slow despite the game being fun for him. I don't blame they guy either, tinkering with mech builds can get costly and experimentation is one of the most fun things in the game. Basically, his cadet bonus ran out and the grind became hell, ruining the fun of mech lab tinkering and shooting stuff with a stompy robot.

For the Love of Odin, won't SOME ONE think of the newbies?

Also I've been around for a while and even I get annoyed at low earnings. So it's hell on newbies and annoying for the average guy. Isn't that reason enough to put earnings back where they used to be?

[xTrident]

TehSBGX, on 22 January 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Check My phoenix tag bro. I've spent lots of cash on this game and I feel C-bill earnings need to be bumped up.

Heres a nice story why, I introduced a friend recently he was having loads of fun then it hit the guy like a load of bricks how grindy the game is and now he doesn't want to play since getting new mechs and experimenting is too slow despite the game being fun for him. I don't blame they guy either, tinkering with mech builds can get costly and experimentation is one of the most fun things in the game. Basically, his cadet bonus ran out and the grind became hell, ruining the fun of mech lab tinkering and shooting stuff with a stompy robot.

For the Love of Odin, won't SOME ONE think of the newbies?

Also I've been around for a while and even I get annoyed at low earnings. So it's hell on newbies and annoying for the average guy. Isn't that reason enough to put earnings back where they used to be?

That's exactly what it's like for me right now. Spent $50 bucks for 12,000 MC's to buy a hero mech for the % bonus. Also, with my cadet bonus I bought a a Victor 9S. The unfortunate thing is I like my 9S better than my Dragon Slayer so I use my 9S a lot more often. And the thing is, because I'm so much better with my 9S compared to the hero mech the amount of c-bills I make come out about even. Since I've got two variants of the Victor I'm now thinking I want to get one more to elite them... That's fine and dandy except I'm currently at ~6.2 million c-bills and it cost either 7.4 or 7.7 million for the next Victor. At my current pace getting that much more in c-bills will probably take me to the end of the weekend if all goes well. And the better news is once I buy it, I'm back to zero. So that's technically "two" mechs I could have in more than 100 drops. And I've contemplated just spending some more of the MC to get the other Victor but I agree with many that say that's a complete waste of money. They're right, it is, but on the flip side is my time grinding to get the damn mechs more important to me than spending some cash? That's the tossup.

[Ngamok]

xTrident, on 23 January 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

That's exactly what it's like for me right now. Spent $50 bucks for 12,000 MC's to buy a hero mech for the % bonus. Also, with my cadet bonus I bought a a Victor 9S. The unfortunate thing is I like my 9S better than my Dragon Slayer so I use my 9S a lot more often. And the thing is, because I'm so much better with my 9S compared to the hero mech the amount of c-bills I make come out about even. Since I've got two variants of the Victor I'm now thinking I want to get one more to elite them... That's fine and dandy except I'm currently at ~6.2 million c-bills and it cost either 7.4 or 7.7 million for the next Victor. At my current pace getting that much more in c-bills will probably take me to the end of the weekend if all goes well. And the better news is once I buy it, I'm back to zero. So that's technically "two" mechs I could have in more than 100 drops. And I've contemplated just spending some more of the MC to get the other Victor but I agree with many that say that's a complete waste of money. They're right, it is, but on the flip side is my time grinding to get the damn mechs more important to me than spending some cash? That's the tossup.

Once you've gotten the 3rd Victor, what will you do with your C-Bills after that? Save them for something or try more mechs? If you forever after only ever play your 3 Victors, your C-Bills now become useless except for consumables. I probably play more on average than you but making 8 million C-Bills is like 3-4 evenings. But I usually play with 3 others 75% of the time (rest is pugging) so making money in some matches is better than others.

[babycakez]

Mawai, on 21 January 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

I agree with your take on the state of the game.

However, the topic was aimed at folks who are complaining that C-bill earnings are too low such that it takes them too long to earn enough to buy their next free mech. The OP pointed out that if the grind was too easy, very few folks would be motivated to pay for items (hero mechs and premium time) that would reduce the grind significantly.

I agree with the OP on that ... the grind is painful ... but the grind is a balance between losing people who would not pay to play the game in the first place and those who are motivated to pay a bit to play and reduce the grinding involved. Only PGI has the numbers on that.

free... maybe.... if your time is worthless.

i had to quit. this game is too expensive and rewards much too slow to come in a game that literally has no contextual reason for you to be fighting, and, barely anything else to do - customizing mechs would be, okay, I guess, if it were possible for a casual like myself to actually have the money to experiment on the mechs I already own, nevermind the ones I don't... It's barely even a game. There needs to be more to do...

I'm not sure PGI understands the "micro" aspect of microtransactions.

Edited by babycakez, 23 January 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[xTrident]

Ngamok, on 23 January 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Once you've gotten the 3rd Victor, what will you do with your C-Bills after that? Save them for something or try more mechs? If you forever after only ever play your 3 Victors, your C-Bills now become useless except for consumables. I probably play more on average than you but making 8 million C-Bills is like 3-4 evenings. But I usually play with 3 others 75% of the time (rest is pugging) so making money in some matches is better than others.

I plan to try more mechs. I'm actually currently debating on saving up for the third Victor or go for a heavy mech as that's the next one I want to try. I certainly don't expect to only play my three Victors. I like my Victor 9S pretty well, but I know I liked the trial Dragon better. So I know there are other mechs I'm going to prefer.

I wouldn't be surprised if eight million c-bills took me nearly a month to acquire based on my play time. During the week I PUG about five matches a night - depending on whether I'm up to it or not. If I play with my buddy I go for about an hour or so. Not many matches, obviously. And for some reason I PUG better than I play with my buddies.

See, an issue with me is the grind and how slow it is. Say I ten matches and an average match is about 80k for me. That's only 800,000 c-bills. And I said that right, only 800,000. For me ten drops is a lot at one given period of time. And by doing so that's all I'm going to make... Hardly a scratch if I even DID that many drops. Usually it's no where near that which makes the grind even worse. I figure what difference is a few matches a night going to make? Why push myself past when I'd like to be done for around an extra 240,000 c-bills? If the c-bills came faster I know I'd play more because my end goal would come to me quicker.

[xTrident]

babycakez, on 23 January 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

free... maybe.... if your time is worthless.

i had to quit. this game is too expensive and rewards much too slow to come in a game that literally has no contextual reason for you to be fighting, and, barely anything else to do - customizing mechs would be, okay, I guess, if it were possible for a casual like myself to actually have the money to experiment on the mechs I already own, nevermind the ones I don't... It's barely even a game. There needs to be more to do...

I'm not sure PGI understands the "micro" aspect of microtransactions.

Such a good point all around. I've gotten into MWO because of a buddy. It's a good way for him and I to spend some time together as he's a few states away. It helps that it's free. Other than that I'm grinding to try some different mechs. But when it comes to what I'm fighting for? Basically my own personal stats. Just so I can say, yep, I did alright.

[6xero9]

You know, when I hear F2P I think of runescape, granted, as a F2P member of runescape you get a smaller area to roam, but the skills you share with members can be trained the same upto a certain point when they get higher tier weapons to kill/get XP faster. But for MWO you get the cadet bonus and then you get kneecapped, I'm not sure how kneecapping a large portion of your player base is F2P. They could make it so that use of a Trial mech results in a pay cut after a raise for the overall pay (let's say a min of 100k a loss, 300k a win then apply bonuses based on activity, with no activity a 100% deduction) that way, it would encourage the purchase of actual mechs, as it is, I know people who aren't buying anything after they rack up 30m even because they're not interested in losing time and money to find out they don't like something.