46 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 22 January 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Unfortunately as far as PGI is concerned its working as intended. Anyway with the NARC buff we've had our balance change for the next 3 months.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this trend...drop in, throw us a tiny bone...disappear for a while claiming work on CW and UI2.0.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

A number of my clan mates have gone back to the highlander meta of 3 PPCs and posting 1000-1300+ damage screen shots on our internal forums since target rich battlemaster release.

It's disgusting and as a primary medium pilot I'm all but ready to take a few month off from the game until PGI does something to curb all of these assaults dominating match after match with impunity because we can't stand up to a single alpha from one of those bloated EZboats.

[Necromantion]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 January 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

This:
Could fire it's 2 PPCs Even 2 ERPPC non stop every turn

The Thug could fire its whole payload very turn and stayed at a Negative heat level! (2PPC, 2 SRM6)

Aye but our current "double heat sinks"... well you know...

THEY SUCK! =3

Nik Van Rhijn, on 22 January 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Unfortunately as far as PGI is concerned its working as intended. Anyway with the NARC buff we've had our balance change for the next 3 months.

So more LRM boating? brb fitting LRMs to mechs that dont have them

[Entail]

Flying Blind, on 21 January 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

No to all.

That is all

for some reason i found this post incredibly hilarious

*flying blindly

[darkchylde]

In Mechwaior - DHS think they can - sadly they fail horrible everytime. And on top of that Ghost heat.

[VikingFarmer]

While i don't think 4 ppc/erppc's are going to work cause that's a 40 point alpha at 540/810. I do think that something should be done so you can actually use a pair of them and not need the rest of your mech being heat sinks. Mechs like the warhawk should be able to fire 2 and 2 and not instantly need to shutdown.

this is me having fun with my 3ppc thunderbolt.

[Lykaon]

Serpieri, on 21 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

The AWS-9M carries 3 ER-PPC which could also be made to carry 4 like the Warhawk. However, firing all 4 would severely overheat both mechs forcing the pilot to only use 2 only while it vents the excessive heat.

In this game though, you can barely handle 2 ER-PPC's, the heat system feels broken and it's not applying heat or dissipating it correctly. Something is definitely not working right.

Solution for the Warhawk is 4x clan lrg pulse,saying it now this will be the popular warhawk refit.

[Turist0AT]

buff energy and missiles

[Turist0AT]

i miss those crazy builds, even then they werent viable Can someone take away the nerf hammer from PGI pls.

[fandre]

IMHO, MWO is a realtime fps which has to make several adjustments to mech and weapons stats to become playable or even fun. It is true, TT and cannon allows the use of such a kind of loadout and there are a lot of player, which enjoy some kind of sniping game, where the can take out most of the mechs by pressing the mouse button 2 or 3 times.

BUT I'm sure, there are other players here, which do not like this kind of sniping, killing and dying in engagements lasting mere seconds. For me, MW was ever a game like old battleships fighting shooting, missing, maneuvering and taking damage. IIRC also sure, that TT does not include pinpoint high alpha dmg.

Therefore: No boats in MWO or only with several difficulties or drawbacks.

Only my opinion.

Edited by fandre, 23 January 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

One of the - relatively speaking - easiest things to try to "fix" the heat system would be to havling hte heat threshold and doubling the dissipation rate. It's not perfect, but it would limit most burst weapon builds, and force people to focus more on sustained fire. It would probably make sniping a bit more difficult (since that's where you can sacrifice sustainability for alpha strike capability - you can either go into cover on your own relatively easy, or the enemy is exposed only shortly anyway, so you have little time to shoot but more time to cool off).

If there was a regular used test server, one could probably experiment with this kind of stuff and see what works and what doesn't.


Of course, this is just a very simply designed solution. It might still not be ideal, and I think it would be better if we had an actual system with heat penalties so it becomes not simply about "OMG, I don't want to shut down" but to consider the trade-offs of the heat penalties and the value of dealing damage.

[VIPER2207]

the problem is not the heat of PPCs (or any other energy-weapon), but their effectiveness compared to ballistics.

With a build like the FIREBRAND AC40, you can alpha-strike the 2 AC20s three or four times without overheating (i'm not sure, i didn't play that thing for a long time, let's pretend 3 alphas until overheat).
Cooldown for AC20s is 4 seconds.
So at the start i have 40 damage pinpoint with that build, after 4 seconds i'm at 2x40 (=80) damage at maximum 2 different locations, after 8 seconds i'm at 3x40 (=120) damage at maximum 3 different locations. For the different locations, a skilled player will be able to place all shots at your CT.

now for comparison, we jump into an AWS-9M with 3 PPCs (let's pretend we don't use the MLs).
This Mech brings 22 Double Heatsinks... should be enough. As we all know, it's not, you will overheat after the second alpha-strike (trust me, i run that build every day).
Cooldown for PPCs is 4 seconds, too.
So we are starting with 30 damage pinpoint, 4 seconds later we are at 2x30 (=60) damage at maximum 2 different locations, but we are also shutdown.

In conclusion, in a 1-on-1-situation against an AC40-Jager, the Awesome (with a shitload of heatsinks) will be 20 points of damage behind the AC40, AND shutdown, after 4 seconds. Simply, when we don't take player skill into the calculation, there is no chance to win for the Awesome.

You could say PPCs (and other energy-weapons) are underpowered, or you could say ballistics are overpowered... pick your choice.

[Joseph Mallan]

Necromantion, on 22 January 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Aye but our current "double heat sinks"... well you know...

THEY SUCK! =3



So more LRM boating? brb fitting LRMs to mechs that dont have them

LOL Cause I guess in Canada double is only 1.4 times as much... dang metric conversions!

[SpiralRazor]

mrgamerwood, on 21 January 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

dude, you have a massive wall of text. please break it up a little because its hard to read right now.

thank you.

Wow...he has already broken it up into paragraphs...maybe YOU need to not fail at reading at anything above a 2nd grade level.

fandre, on 23 January 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

IMHO, MWO is a realtime fps which has to make several adjustments to mech and weapons stats to become playable or even fun. It is true, TT and cannon allows the use of such a kind of loadout and there are a lot of player, which enjoy some kind of sniping game, where the can take out most of the mechs by pressing the mouse button 2 or 3 times.

BUT I'm sure, there are other players here, which do not like this kind of sniping, killing and dying in engagements lasting mere seconds. For me, MW was ever a game like old battleships fighting shooting, missing, maneuvering and taking damage. IIRC also sure, that TT does not include pinpoint high alpha dmg.

Therefore: No boats in MWO or only with several difficulties or drawbacks.

Only my opinion.

Groups of Targeted large pulse lasers. So umm......

VIPER2207, on 23 January 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

the problem is not the heat of PPCs (or any other energy-weapon), but their effectiveness compared to ballistics.

With a build like the FIREBRAND AC40, you can alpha-strike the 2 AC20s three or four times without overheating (i'm not sure, i didn't play that thing for a long time, let's pretend 3 alphas until overheat).
Cooldown for AC20s is 4 seconds.
So at the start i have 40 damage pinpoint with that build, after 4 seconds i'm at 2x40 (=80) damage at maximum 2 different locations, after 8 seconds i'm at 3x40 (=120) damage at maximum 3 different locations. For the different locations, a skilled player will be able to place all shots at your CT.

now for comparison, we jump into an AWS-9M with 3 PPCs (let's pretend we don't use the MLs).
This Mech brings 22 Double Heatsinks... should be enough. As we all know, it's not, you will overheat after the second alpha-strike (trust me, i run that build every day).
Cooldown for PPCs is 4 seconds, too.
So we are starting with 30 damage pinpoint, 4 seconds later we are at 2x30 (=60) damage at maximum 2 different locations, but we are also shutdown.

In conclusion, in a 1-on-1-situation against an AC40-Jager, the Awesome (with a shitload of heatsinks) will be 20 points of damage behind the AC40, AND shutdown, after 4 seconds. Simply, when we don't take player skill into the calculation, there is no chance to win for the Awesome.

You could say PPCs (and other energy-weapons) are underpowered, or you could say ballistics are overpowered... pick your choice.

Not underpowered, just nerfed into uselessness for STOCK builds...

[MadMaxMKII]

VIPER2207, on 23 January 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

the problem is not the heat of PPCs (or any other energy-weapon), but their effectiveness compared to ballistics.

With a build like the FIREBRAND AC40, you can alpha-strike the 2 AC20s three or four times without overheating (i'm not sure, i didn't play that thing for a long time, let's pretend 3 alphas until overheat).
Cooldown for AC20s is 4 seconds.
So at the start i have 40 damage pinpoint with that build, after 4 seconds i'm at 2x40 (=80) damage at maximum 2 different locations, after 8 seconds i'm at 3x40 (=120) damage at maximum 3 different locations. For the different locations, a skilled player will be able to place all shots at your CT.

now for comparison, we jump into an AWS-9M with 3 PPCs (let's pretend we don't use the MLs).
This Mech brings 22 Double Heatsinks... should be enough. As we all know, it's not, you will overheat after the second alpha-strike (trust me, i run that build every day).
Cooldown for PPCs is 4 seconds, too.
So we are starting with 30 damage pinpoint, 4 seconds later we are at 2x30 (=60) damage at maximum 2 different locations, but we are also shutdown.

In conclusion, in a 1-on-1-situation against an AC40-Jager, the Awesome (with a shitload of heatsinks) will be 20 points of damage behind the AC40, AND shutdown, after 4 seconds. Simply, when we don't take player skill into the calculation, there is no chance to win for the Awesome.

You could say PPCs (and other energy-weapons) are underpowered, or you could say ballistics are overpowered... pick your choice.

you forgot the aspect of ppc range. 40 alpha in <270m against 30 Alpha in <540m

[Joseph Mallan]

fandre, on 23 January 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

IMHO, MWO is a realtime fps which has to make several adjustments to mech and weapons stats to become playable or even fun. It is true, TT and cannon allows the use of such a kind of loadout and there are a lot of player, which enjoy some kind of sniping game, where the can take out most of the mechs by pressing the mouse button 2 or 3 times.

BUT I'm sure, there are other players here, which do not like this kind of sniping, killing and dying in engagements lasting mere seconds. For me, MW was ever a game like old battleships fighting shooting, missing, maneuvering and taking damage. IIRC also sure, that TT does not include pinpoint high alpha dmg.

Therefore: No boats in MWO or only with several difficulties or drawbacks.

Only my opinion.

The Warhawk's 4 ERPPC leashed to a targeting computer could put 40 damage on one armor location. And not many Mechs could withstand 3 hitting one location more than twice.

[Curccu]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 21 January 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

HOW DO YOU LIKE MY TEXT WALL NOW!

TLDR

[Josef Nader]

Or, you can put 2 PPCs/ERPPCs on separate weapon groups and fire them a half-second apart. No ghost heat, 40 damage in less than a second and a half.

Learn to manage your heat and pilot your mech, or shut down and burn up like a filthy freebirth.

[fandre]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 January 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

The Warhawk's 4 ERPPC leashed to a targeting computer could put 40 damage on one armor location. And not many Mechs could withstand 3 hitting one location more than twice.

You are right. As mentioned IIRC ;-)

Still the problem in MWO: The "targeting computer" is the human player in combination with perfect weapon convergence without any drawback. In TT or cannon, you had to use a targeting computer to improve aim at a specific part and it would take considerable amount of crits.

MWO still needs something to counter the effectivness of boats.

Edited by fandre, 23 January 2014 - 06:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

fandre, on 23 January 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

You are right. As mentioned IIRC ;-)

Still the problem in MWO: The "targeting computer" is the human player in combination with perfect weapon convergence without any drawback. In TT or cannon, you had to use a targeting computer to improve aim at a specific part and it would take considerable amount of crits.

MWO still needs something to counter the effectivness of boats.

No argument on Convergence. That is the way a Warhawk with its Hawkeye j360 should be hitting, not a stalker with 4 PPCs and a Spar 3c Tight Band!

Quote

Lastly I see no issue with fielding 4erppcs or 4ppcs with ac40 mechs and gauss mechs around. So why not just make energy as effective as ballistics(stick with the current flame war, don't get off task).

I do support this way of thinking!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 January 2014 - 06:46 AM.