46 replies to this topic

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Now i know they were game breaking but hot damn were they fun. We need the ability to boat and be effective with lots of ppcs. You now ask "Why the hell would we want that?" one amazing and sexy name comes to mind.... Warhawk (Masakari). This mech carried 4 erppcs, lrm10. Now if there is an 85 ton assault mech that needs to be massively modified to become useful then why have it? The stalker (IS) could beat the Masakari in every way. It is more customizable and has more boating capabilities missile wise. The one thing the Masakari can do even marginally better than a stalker is carry it's arm mounted ppcs. The wide range of movement is a massive advantage. Now if the only reason to buy a mech is then made obsolete by how useless the weapons it carries, then what is the point of getting it? There simply isn't one other than nostalgia and sexiness. This long winded introduction was to the ineffectiveness of ppc boats because of relatively recent and massive nerfs heat wise (COUGH COUGH STUPID GHOST HEAT COUGH COUGH).

The absolute inability to alphastrike without a shutdown is idiotic unless your build is unoptimized. But when carrying 21 dhs you cant even fire 4 ppcs together let alone 4 erppcs together without a shutdown and internal damage. But if you chainfire you will have heavily degrading dpm which is worthless. I agree that we dont need the old 6 ppc stalkers (although loads of fun) they were a severe issue. But i see no issue with a mech carrying 28 tons of weaponry who also needs 20 more tons of DHS to fire often enough to be effective as an issue. Especially with ac40 jagers, ac40cats, now crappy gaussjagers/gausscats, and many srm alpha builds (lol hit detection) toting the same or higher alpha with less heat or less weight.

They need to lessen the nerf on ppc boats to not only un-extinct them (tehehe wordz) but to make them sort of effective as they are canon. AC40s are not canon on 65 ton mechs yet they are here and don't have nearly as heavy of nerfs. Give your ideas if you read this whole horribly written paragraph and agree. If you disagree yell at me in the comments as well. One thing i do not want is some guy being like "Bro i never stopped running my ppc boat and it is still a beast" because unless you are an extremely amazing player you can not use a ppc boat effectively (that meaning competitive damage outputs of 400-500 damage average like most other builds do).

EDIT: Broke into paragraphs because some forum trolls are incapable of reading words that are close together.

IN REPLY TO ALL SAYING ONLY CLANNERS SHOULD BE CAPABLE OF CARRYING THESE HEAVY DUTY LOADS:
The awesome is an Innersphere ppc boat which would be incapable of a single salvo with 4 erppcs, let alone 4ppcs. That is when you say "Then don't carry 4ppcs" well in this game of aplhastrike builds and whoever hits hardest in one salvo wins.... you need the 4th. Even with clan weapon implementations and clan DHS the heat would be enough to shut down a Masakari. If it isn't enough to shut down a Masakari it would be at 90ish% heat and with ghost heat i guarantee the heat would be too much.

Now if you say "Clans (originally) were developed as a jump forward, generally enabling way more powerful builds than in the initial Battletech rules" that is true... but in a game where you have full control over what builds a mech can carry how can the devs be like "Nah the Innersphere cannot field 4ppcs" yet they allow 65 ton jagers to carry 2 ac20s? In TT 4ppcs wouldn't shut down a mech when alphastriking which is what some people don't understand. I will not explain the heat system because many have before me and you may not even understand (no offense (except to the forum trolls)). Basically there is nothing canon about not allowing Innerspherian mechs to carry 4ppcs or 4erppcs and alphastrike a single time without an overheat.

Lastly I see no issue with fielding 4erppcs or 4ppcs with ac40 mechs and gauss mechs around. So why not just make energy as effective as ballistics(stick with the current flame war, don't get off task).


HOW DO YOU LIKE MY TEXT WALL NOW!

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 22 January 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[mrgamerwood]

dude, you have a massive wall of text. please break it up a little because its hard to read right now.

thank you.

[Alex Warden]

you are reffering to the Masakari... that´s a Clanmech, with Clan ERPPC´s and Clan DHS.. and that´s what makes your whole post pointless... Clans (originally) were developed as a jump forward, generally enabling way more powerful builds than in the initial Battletech rules... (luckily this probably won´t be the case in MWO, and that´s just my opinion)

Inner Sphere Mechs (at least with the technology level we currently have) aren´t supposed to carry overgunned loadouts like 4 ERPPCs and still being effective ..if you want a Masakari, wait for the Masakari...

Edited by Alex Warden, 21 January 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[Flying Blind]

No to all.

That is all

[Serpieri]

The AWS-9M carries 3 ER-PPC which could also be made to carry 4 like the Warhawk. However, firing all 4 would severely overheat both mechs forcing the pilot to only use 2 only while it vents the excessive heat.

In this game though, you can barely handle 2 ER-PPC's, the heat system feels broken and it's not applying heat or dissipating it correctly. Something is definitely not working right.

[Krujiente]

PPCs are doing 10 damage every 4 seconds rather than table top value of 10 damage every 10. Using 2 is like using 4 heat-wise. If you want to use 4 just put on 4 and only fire every 10 seconds. The heat system isn't broken its just the fire-rates are all jacked up and the heat system was unchanged.

Fire less, fire harder n all that.

Edited by Krujiente, 21 January 2014 - 11:54 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mrgamerwood, on 21 January 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

dude, you have a massive wall of text. please break it up a little because its hard to read right now.

thank you.

Just so you know... I been out of school for over 20 years, and I could read his wall of text just fine... maybe some folks should go back to school and learn to read, and have better manners.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 January 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Just so you know... I been out of school for over 20 years, and I could read his wall of text just fine... maybe some folks should go back to school and learn to read, and have better manners.

Or maybe it takes someone who is old and isn't fully there anymore to comprehend that terrible post.

[kapusta11]

Sigh, people will see the title and post "No" without reading a single word.

Krujiente, on 21 January 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

PPCs are doing 10 damage every 4 seconds rather than table top value of 10 damage every 10. Using 2 is like using 4 heat-wise. If you want to use 4 just put on 4 and only fire every 10 seconds. The heat system isn't broken its just the fire-rates are all jacked up and the heat system was unchanged.

Fire less, fire harder n all that.

That is sooo wrong. Once you reach the heat cap (a matter of few seconds) your next shot will require "unspent heat" which "genarates" at your dissipation level, your actual rate of fire now equal to the amount of heat that weapon produce divided by dissipation. Now do the math, with 3.3 dissipation (15 doubles) you can fire 1 PPC every 3 seconds, 2xPPCs every 6 seconds, 2xER PPCs every 9. What's even worse is that each energy weapon you have share same coodown. Heat system, as it is now, is flawed in it's core.

Edited by kapusta11, 22 January 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 22 January 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Or maybe it takes someone who is old and isn't fully there anymore to comprehend that terrible post.

Awe, you feel goo to insult an old man? I at least gently reprimanded someone for their impolite manners, you just wanna try to hurt he feelings of an old man who has been a member of the internet community since 33.6k was lightning fast. You are not new or impressive when it comes to internet Dbags.

[Tahribator]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 January 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Just so you know... I been out of school for over 20 years, and I could read his wall of text just fine... maybe some folks should go back to school and learn to read, and have better manners.

I'd rather not have my eyes bleed to read another rambly PPC ghost heat rant, thank you. It's usually a good idea to make your text visually appealing if you want your ideas to be heard in written form.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tahribator, on 22 January 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I'd rather not have my eyes bleed to read another rambly PPC ghost heat rant, thank you. It's usually a good idea to make your text visually appealing if you want your ideas to be heard in written form.

Problem is we don't listen to the voice the OP probably wrote it in so maybe drink some more mountain dew or your Caffeine delivery system of choice and read it without fear of eye bleeding. Seriously. If you been reading posts on the net for decades, you get used to different grammatical rules that get used and abused. Tolerance is a lost practice.

[Joseph Mallan]

Krujiente, on 21 January 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

PPCs are doing 10 damage every 4 seconds rather than table top value of 10 damage every 10. Using 2 is like using 4 heat-wise. If you want to use 4 just put on 4 and only fire every 10 seconds. The heat system isn't broken its just the fire-rates are all jacked up and the heat system was unchanged.

Fire less, fire harder n all that.

Ah but you & your enemy fired once and vented heat in 10 seconds. Not fire twice and then wait 10 seconds for your sinks to work 10 seconds for everything... Including Physical attacks!

Our sinks should be venting in like 5 seconds so they keep up with our RoF better. Not perfectly... just better.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 January 2014 - 07:00 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 January 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Ah but you & your enemy fired once and vented heat in 10 seconds. Not fire twice and then wait 10 seconds for your sinks to work 10 seconds for everything... Including Physical attacks!

Our sinks should be venting in like 5 seconds so they keep up with our RoF better. Not perfectly... just better.

If you take the new firing rates into effect...TT SHS are mathematically more effcicient than the engine MWO 2.0 DHS because of this 2.5+ firing rate.

Something certainly needs a change, whether its dissipation, heat generated by weapons or the whole heat system.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes something has to change.

[Necromantion]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 21 January 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Now i know they were game breaking but hot damn were they fun. We need the ability to boat and be effective with lots of ppcs. You now ask "Why the hell would we want that?" one amazing and sexy name comes to mind.... Warhawk (Masakari). This mech carried 4 erppcs, lrm10. Now if there is an 85 ton assault mech that needs to be massively modified to become useful then why have it? The stalker (IS) could beat the Masakari in every way. It is more customizable and has more boating capabilities missile wise. The one thing the Masakari can do even marginally better than a stalker is carry it's arm mounted ppcs. The wide range of movement is a massive advantage. Now if the only reason to buy a mech is then made obsolete by how useless the weapons it carries, then what is the point of getting it? There simply isn't one other than nostalgia and sexiness. This long winded introduction was to the ineffectiveness of ppc boats because of relatively recent and massive nerfs heat wise (COUGH COUGH STUPID GHOST HEAT COUGH COUGH). The absolute inability to alphastrike without a shutdown is idiotic unless your build is unoptimized. But when carrying 21 dhs you cant even fire 4 ppcs together let alone 4 erppcs together without a shutdown and internal damage. But if you chainfire you will have heavily degrading dpm which is worthless. I agree that we dont need the old 6 ppc stalkers (although loads of fun) they were a severe issue. But i see no issue with a mech carrying 28 tons of weaponry who also needs 20 more tons of DHS to fire often enough to be effective as an issue. Especially with ac40 jagers, ac40cats, now crappy gaussjagers/gausscats, and many srm alpha builds (lol hit detection) toting the same or higher alpha with less heat or less weight. They need to lessen the nerf on ppc boats to not only un-extinct them (tehehe wordz) but to make them sort of effective as they are canon. AC40s are not canon on 65 ton mechs yet they are here and don;t have nearly as heavy of nerfs. Give your ideas if you read this whole horribly written paragraph and agree. If you disagree yell at me in the comments as well. One thing i do not want is some guy being like "Bro i never stopped running my ppc boat and it is still a beast" because unless you are an extremely amazing player you can not use a ppc boat effectively (that meaning competitive damage outputs of 400-500 damage average like most other builds do).

If were going by cannon as mentioned most mechs couldnt fire 2-3 ppc shots without overheating or forcing a manual shutdown to manage heat. Please note this was typically chainfired if im not mistaken, not alpha shots which is what boats were doing before.

I think the current heat model is ok for ppcs, could use a little tweaking but not horribly since things do translate close to tt and facilitate close to the same dps per ppc.

[Joseph Mallan]

Necromantion, on 22 January 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

If were going by cannon as mentioned most mechs couldnt fire 2-3 ppc shots without overheating or forcing a manual shutdown to manage heat. Please note this was typically chainfired if im not mistaken, not alpha shots which is what boats were doing before.

I think the current heat model is ok for ppcs, could use a little tweaking but not horribly since things do translate close to tt and facilitate close to the same dps per ppc.

This:

Quote

• WHM-6Rb This upgrade of the 6R was used by the SLDF Royal units. The use of seventeen double heat sinks allows an Artemis IV Fire Control System to be added to the SRM-6. Ferro-Fibrousarmor increases protection^[18]. BV (2.0) = 1,431^[19]

Could fire it's 2 PPCs Even 2 ERPPC non stop every turn

The Thug could fire its whole payload very turn and stayed at a Negative heat level! (2PPC, 2 SRM6)

[MasonDune]

This heating according to cannon is all off. In the TT game you didnt go hot unless you passed the maximum your heat syncs could handle. The Awesome was designed to fire PPC at 3-2-3. this allowed you to fire all 3 weapons cool down a little on the second firing and then fire 3 again. You did not build up heat unless the weapons fired produced more heat than you had Heat syncs. For EX if you fire 3 PPC and Produce 10 heat each you hit 30. If your mech carries 28 heat sinks you would only go up by 2 on the heat scale. Your mech had a chance to have internal damage and possibly explode along the way. At 20 on the heat scale (for a mech with 20 heat sinks that would require 40 heat in one turn to reach after a single firing) your reactor would melt down.

This game does not follow TT for heat at all. If it did you would not have heat build up every time you fired. Another thing is in the TT you never stopped moving. It took 10 seconds per turn because it is assuming that your fighting in the same manner as a fighter pilot would. You are constantly moving and when moving it takes longer to aim and fire. This had little to do with the actual heat production with the exception that your move speed would effect your heat for the turn. The TT could not account for things such as stepping up a hill firing and then stepping back all in that same time span. Sniping matches rarely happened in the TT. If you did spend time sniping then the rest of your unit was fighting closer in while you provided support. ECM was very rare. Few units ever had access to the technology.

That all said I do not agree with the current heat system. I think ghost heat should be reduce or removed. If you want to stop mechs from using a 6 ppc setup create a sub hard point category that limits the number of a specific weapon. Sure you might be able to equip 6 energy but only x number of them can be used on large scale weapons such as PPC or Large laser. Then they can keep the variants closer to the lore but allow for some customization without the super build.

Edited by MasonDune, 22 January 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[General Taskeen]

How is the current heat model model ok when it can take over 20 seconds for a couple ER PPC's to cool down. I mean, that's pretty lol, that's twice as long as the boardgame. 15SHS could keep 1 ER PPC perfectly cooled just fine, and like Joseph just quoted there, 15 or more DHS could keep 2 ER PPC's firing nonstop every turn. Hell 2 PPC's could be used with just 20SHS just fine, not so in this game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 January 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Unfortunately as far as PGI is concerned its working as intended. Anyway with the NARC buff we've had our balance change for the next 3 months.