18 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

I've seen lots of questions about how they are going to work, and nope, I know nothing for sure. But my translation of what little info has been given is this:

We know that there will be 3 variants as advertised in the packages. They have to do this for the pilot tree.

We know that they are making the CT sections non-modifiable. engine, structure, armor, etc all fixed.

So for example a Timberwolf will be something like

Prime: 375XL, Double Sinks, Endosteel, 12 tons Ferro
Var 1: 350XL, Double Sinks, Endo, 15 tons Ferro
Var 2: 400 XL, Standard Sinks, Endo, 12 tons Ferro
Hero: 375XL, Double Sinks, Standard Structure, 10 tons Ferro
(note, I pulled the armor tons out of my backside, don't know nor care about the real tonnage)

This would give you

P: average speed, low heat, little room, average armor
1: slower speed, low heat, little room, heavy armor
2: Faster speed, higher heat, little room, average armor
H: Average speed, Low heat, lots of room, lower armor

This way each variant has pluses and minuses, And could have their own quirks for rotation, etc that the current ones do also.

[Josef Nader]

That's not how Omnimechs work.

Quote

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech.

All variants of the Timber Wolf will have a 375XL.

Edited by Josef Nader, 22 January 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[RussianWolf]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

That's not how Omnimechs work.



All variants of the Timber Wolf will have a 375XL.

So how do you think they will do the three variants if that is the case? They've basically said that the arms and side torsos will be swappable. So that leaves only the center torso as the differentiation.

Omnimechs will not work in MWO as they do in lore.

[Josef Nader]

From what PGI has written, Omnimechs will work in MWO -exactly- as they work in lore. If you change an Omnimech's core features, it just becomes a battlemech and loses the modularity that gives an omni so much flexibility.

Quote

With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location.

Pulled straight from the Clan writeup. tl;dr buying "variants" will give you new parts to mix and match, as well as access to any CT or Head hard points that variant might have. Nothing else.

[Zyllos]

The problem is that the current "idea" of omnimechs give them the "awesome flexibility" that is already shared by battlemechs but with the drawback of having all components fixed. One battlemech with a ballistic hardpoint, then 3 energy hardpoints, is already so open to customization that allowing that omnimech to randomly equip missile hardpoints or 4 ballistic hardpoints won't matter...

This is why I hope PGI adds sized hardpoints to battlemechs to further give benefit of having an open ended weapon layout that omnimechs should deserve.

Edited by Zyllos, 22 January 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Omnimechs will have sized hardpoints of one fasion or another. In TT (and in the dev writeup) Endo/Ferro and anything else the base chassis has locked in will be immovable. For example, you will never be able to put anything in the Warhawk's left torso, as all that space is taken up with engines, endo, and heat sinks. It's right torso space is limited, as there are some locked-in components there as well.

That said, I predict them giving omnis some metagame benefit, like being able to select among a number of saved loadouts in the lobby once you know what map you're going to (sniper loadout for Alpine, brawler loadout for River City, for example). This will help capture the flavor without breaking what makes omnimechs onmimechs.

That said, I'll throw a tantrum if they ever implement anything as dumb as MW4s "sized hardpoints". The current hardpoint system is fine. Don't take away more of my customization.

Edited by Josef Nader, 22 January 2014 - 03:07 PM.

[RussianWolf]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

From what PGI has written, Omnimechs will work in MWO -exactly- as they work in lore. If you change an Omnimech's core features, it just becomes a battlemech and loses the modularity that gives an omni so much flexibility.



Pulled straight from the Clan writeup. tl;dr buying "variants" will give you new parts to mix and match, as well as access to any CT or Head hard points that variant might have. Nothing else.

That would tend to be read as I'll buy all three configurations and make them all identical and level them up. Doesn't make much sense. The pilot tree should have something more required to differentiate the configurations.

[Josef Nader]

I never said it made sense. It doesn't make much sense that what you do on an HBK-4G somehow makes you better with an HBK-4J, but that's the game we're playing.

[Strum Wealh]

RussianWolf, on 22 January 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So how do you think they will do the three variants if that is the case? They've basically said that the arms and side torsos will be swappable. So that leaves only the center torso as the differentiation.

Omnimechs will not work in MWO as they do in lore.

The OmniTech restrictions PGI has outlined with regard to the base components (Engine, structure, armor, other fixed components, etc.) are completely in-line with BT lore & BT canon; see pages 44-59 of TechManual.

While PGI's planned OmniMech implementation allows for the arms & side-torsi to be exchanged between the core assemblies (the CT + legs) of each variant of the same chassis, those core assemblies can still differ substantially without being able to change the base equipment - they could have different torso twist and/or pitch limits, different torso twist and/or pitch rates, different acceleration/deceleration curves, different hardpoint allotments (for example: Mad Cat Prime has a ballistic hardpoint in the CT for its CT-mounted Machine Gun, Mad Cat A instead has an energy hardpoint in the CT for its CT-mounted ER Small Laser, and Mad Cat B gets no CT weapon hardpoint because the canon configuration mounts no weapons there), and different numbers of module slots.

There could also be additional quirks based on how the different exchangeable parts interact with the core assembly.
For example, attaching the arms of of the Mad Cat B to the Mad Cat Prime core assembly might result in different (greater or lesser) arm pitch/turn angles than what would result from keeping the Mad Cat Prime's arms on its own core assembly - and the difference (if any) could be further magnified by which variant the intervening side-torso came from.
All of this is also alluded to in PGI's statement regarding their proposed OmniMech implementation.

Quote

We’re also looking at tying in systems unique to MWO, such as our quirks system, into OmniMech design, in order to even out certain configuration’s locations that may be seen as better to use than others. For example, each part of each configuration could have its own effect on the overall quirks of the Mech. This could mean that your choice of which configuration’s part you use in each location could change how your Mech plays.

[Bishop Steiner]

RussianWolf, on 22 January 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

I've seen lots of questions about how they are going to work, and nope, I know nothing for sure. But my translation of what little info has been given is this:

We know that there will be 3 variants as advertised in the packages. They have to do this for the pilot tree.

We know that they are making the CT sections non-modifiable. engine, structure, armor, etc all fixed.

So for example a Timberwolf will be something like

Prime: 375XL, Double Sinks, Endosteel, 12 tons Ferro
Var 1: 350XL, Double Sinks, Endo, 15 tons Ferro
Var 2: 400 XL, Standard Sinks, Endo, 12 tons Ferro
Hero: 375XL, Double Sinks, Standard Structure, 10 tons Ferro
(note, I pulled the armor tons out of my backside, don't know nor care about the real tonnage)

This would give you

P: average speed, low heat, little room, average armor
1: slower speed, low heat, little room, heavy armor
2: Faster speed, higher heat, little room, average armor
H: Average speed, Low heat, lots of room, lower armor

This way each variant has pluses and minuses, And could have their own quirks for rotation, etc that the current ones do also.

Armor is the same on all versions of each omni, and the core elements cant change.

[mithril coyote]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Armor is the same on all versions of each omni, and the core elements cant change.

heat sink type too.. so if the prime has DHS, all of them have DHS. though the exact # can change since only those in the engine and a few outside the engine are 'fixed'.. you can always add more if needed, subjeect to weight and crit space.

[lsp]

They should just put them in the game exactly the way they where in battletech. Like they should have everything else, they're meant to be superior, that's the whole point. Not "balanced"

[mania3c]

Only problem I have with clan mechs is that we probably won't be able ti fizzle with armor at all.. when trying different builds with omni mechs I am pretty sure we will be dealing with "few hundreds kg left/needed" without chance to do anything about it..imagine you want to add some heatsink, AMS, or medium laser..whatever..and you will need to free 0,3 tons...or you will use all your slot and you have still 1 ton free..what than??

[Strum Wealh]

mania3c, on 24 January 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

Only problem I have with clan mechs is that we probably won't be able ti fizzle with armor at all.. when trying different builds with omni mechs I am pretty sure we will be dealing with "few hundreds kg left/needed" without chance to do anything about it..imagine you want to add some heatsink, AMS, or medium laser..whatever..and you will need to free 0,3 tons...or you will use all your slot and you have still 1 ton free..what than??

I would be unsurprised if PGI, after doubling the number of armor points, made some small adjustments to the numbers of armor points to ensure that the OmniMechs had an even tonnage (to the nearest half-ton) of pod space (since BT itself rounds to the nearest half-ton, and some of the TT values aren't exactly what would be expected if a more granular system had been used).

[Josef Nader]

lsp, on 24 January 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

They should just put them in the game exactly the way they where in battletech. Like they should have everything else, they're meant to be superior, that's the whole point. Not "balanced"

Except they -are- going in almost exactly like they went in from Battletech. If you modify the armor/engine/etc. of an omnimech, it loses its modularity and becomes a Battlemech.

With the exception of hard points, PGIs omnimech implementation is almost word for word from the Battletech rulebooks.

Edited by Josef Nader, 24 January 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[Butane9000]

Let's compare the Timberwolf vs the Orion:

Timberwolf (Prime)

Weight: 75 Tons
Armament (Damage)
2x ER Large Laser (20 [2*10])
2x ER Medium Laser (14 [2*7])
Medium Pulse Laser (7)
2x LRM 20's (40 [1*40])
2x Machine Guns (4 [2*4])
Total damage output via Alpha: 85 points
Speed: 86.4 km/h (375)
Upgrades:
Endo Steel
Ferro Fibrous Armor
XL Engine
Effective Range: 0-1000m (based on MWO IS Range numbers)

Orion (ON1-K)

Weight: 75 Tons
Armament (Damage)
AC10 (10)
LRM15 (15 [1*15])
2x Medium Laser (10 [5*2])
1x SRM4 (8 [4*2])
Total damage output via Alpha: 43
Speed: 64.8 km/h (300)
Upgrades:
None
Effective Range: 180-450 (based on MWO IS Range numbers)

The big difference? Effective range, speed and fire power. Without some serious revisions to Clan technology IS tech is going by the way side. Clan XL engines do not suffer the same problems IS ones do as they won't go down when you take out a side torso. Another advantage to the clans.

My suggestion has been, if you want to balance clans you need to look at weapon range and heat. Heat adjustments shouldn't tech breaking as it was in the older Mechwarrior games. But Clan weapons should be as a rule of thumb hotter then their IS counter parts. But I'd say only 5-10% additional heat (based on current in game IS figures).

Other then heat it's about range. I remember reading a interview with one of the designers for the Clans when they released them on the board game. They said the technology didn't fit the lore. As in the lore they are warriors who like to fight close range. So why not adjust the MWO Clan technology to emphasize that fact? Here would be my take on weaponry using the Medium Laser, LRM20 and ER Large Laser for comparison:

Medium Pulse Laser
IS Currently (MWO) - 6 dmg / 5 heat / 0 GH / 3s CD / 180m (360m) / .6s duration / 1 slot / 2T
Clan (Proposed MWO) - 7 dmg / 5.5 heat / 3 GH / 2.5s CD / 160m (320m) / .9s duration / 1 slot / 2T

LRM 20
IS Currently (MWO) - 1.1 dmg / 6 heat / 3 GH / 4.75 CD / 180m-1000m / 5 slots / 180 [Ammo/T] / 10T
Clan (Proposed MWO) - 1.4 dmg / 6.6 heat / 2 GH / 4.60 CD / 90m-900m / 4 slots / 200 [Ammo/T] / 5T

ER Large Laser
IS Currently (MWO) - 9 dmg / 8.5 heat / 3 GH / 3.25 CD / 675m (1350m) / 1s duration / 2 slots / 5T
Clan (Proposed MWO) - 10.5 dmg / 9 heat / 2 GH / 3.00 CD / 600m (1200m) / 1.2s duration / 1 Slot / 4T

With the way these are proposed I don't beleive these weapons systems would be game breaking. Clans keep their power, they are able to fire faster but their weapons have shorter ranges and require better heat management. Their laser durations last longer. Clan weaponry also keeps their slot and tonnage advantages considering most parts of their omnimechs will not be modifiable.

What my proposed changes do is keep IS and Clan technology balanced. Keeps Clan tech closer to their lore and back story. As well as doesn't completely gimp and outdate IS technology starting an arms race.

As for LRMs the problem with the clans is a the tonnage discrepancy (I am okay with that considering the omnimech system proposed by the devs). But with 0 minimum range that would be ridiculous for any mech. So adding in a minor minimum range and slightly reducing the maximum range makes sense from a balancing stand point. So to balance out the "nerf" I suggested an increase in ammo per ton, damage and cool down to offset it.

What do you think?

Edited by Butane9000, 24 January 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Josef Nader, on 24 January 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Except they -are- going in almost exactly like they went in from Battletech. If you modify the armor/engine/etc. of an omnimech, it loses its modularity and becomes a Battlemech.

Dou you have a statement from someone from PGI or IGP indicating that one would be able to surrender the OmniMech status in exchange for being able to modify the base components?

That is, what evidence is there that the OmniMechs won't be permanently locked with OmniTech status unchanged? What is there that the OmniMechs simply won't be able to be "de-Omnized" at all, ever?

[AlexEss]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Armor is the same on all versions of each omni, and the core elements cant change.

No.. Not entirely correct if we look at it.

They only said that the player will not get to change them. PGI has the freedom to tinker with the different chassies as they like. They could very well move things around to make each a bit more distinct. Along that line the OP´s post is not a bad concept. Not perhaps the most useful but a good concept none the less.

[Strum Wealh]

AlexEss, on 24 January 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

No.. Not entirely correct if we look at it.

They only said that the player will not get to change them. PGI has the freedom to tinker with the different chassies as they like. They could very well move things around to make each a bit more distinct. Along that line the OP´s post is not a bad concept. Not perhaps the most useful but a good concept none the less.

As noted previously, there is a (IMO) reasonable expectation that some light tinkering could occur for the sake of ensuring that there is an even tonnage in terms of pod space (e.g. so that the Uller definitely has 16.00 tons of pod space, rather than 15.76 tons or 16.23 tons), but it seems very unlikely (IMO) that there would be such drastic changes as "this Uller had its engine downsized in order to carry more armor, that Uller sacrifices more armor for a bigger engine, the other Uller shifts armor from its legs to its torso".