518 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 22 January 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

So basically you are saying the counter ECM effect is only for the Atlas DDC then?

Seems kind of silly to add that effect and expect it to only be used on one mech variant.

Well the counter ECM effect of the updated-NARC is just a "bonus". It's not as if the launcher is now suddenly only meant to defeat ECM.

The way I read things, if you have a RVN-3L providing ECM Bubble to a JM6-DD, if you NARC the JM6 he'll light up on radar like the ECM isn't there. Well, at least I hope this is how it works. Is this assumption correct, or am I off?

Besides, it's not as if a NARC beacon will be of much help for LRMs to hit lights cruising around at ~150km/h, anyhow.
I just really don't see NARC being a useful tool against lights at all, seeing how LRMs against lights is sketchy at best.

[DocBach]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I mean I guess using NARC you could scare someone into hiding for 30 seconds.

I totally misread Paul's post and thought the timer was going away, too.

Yeah, nevermind - Narc is going to still be weak against ECM in the long run, and the amount of effort it takes to defeat ECM is still exponentially more than the amount of effort it takes to run it.

[Sybreed]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm just not scared of this version of NARC...even when I don't have ECM, LRM's don't really scare me. Between movement, jump jets and cover...it's just not hard to avoid it.

I mean I guess using NARC you could scare someone into hiding for 30 seconds.

But half the problem in PUG's is...you bring NARC...but there is only one LRM boat...so it's basically a waste of time.

Everyone else is sporting PPC's/AC's/ER Large Lasers.

If LRMs weren't so weaksauce NARC would be more interesting, that's for sure.

BUT! At the same time, one reason why LRMs are so bad is because of how easy it is to break lock. Counter that with narc and results could be different. We'll have to wait and see.

Edited by Sybreed, 23 January 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[Heffay]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm just not scared of this version of NARC...even when I don't have ECM, LRM's don't really scare me. Between movement, jump jets and cover...it's just not hard to avoid it.

I mean I guess using NARC you could scare someone into hiding for 30 seconds.

In competitive play, if you can crowd control someone for 30 seconds, that's a huge advantage. You don't need to even hit them. They just need to see "Incoming missiles" on the screen.

Battles aren't always about damaging the other mechs. Controlling the field of combat is a valid and useful tactic.

[DocBach]

Still, even with these changes to Narc, the amount of effort, tonnage, and tactics it takes to use LRM's against ECM enemies is simply inefficient when you can just load up ECM and front load damage with AC's and PPC's.

Edited by DocBach, 23 January 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

LOL nark update news from

pink thunder
Minister of misinformation

[Motroid]

Two questions. Doesn't NARC get eaten by any AMS? I mean totally hardcountered unless you overload it's capacity with regular LRMs? So Mr.AS7-Easy D-DDC with ECM will only have to equip AMS as well to stay safe as ever from NARC?
And second is: Will the damage caused deactivation be still in there? It's not totally clear from the OP. No damage fall off OK but there is a damage limit as well. Will it be removed for the total duration?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

In competitive play, if you can crowd control someone for 30 seconds, that's a huge advantage. You don't need to even hit them. They just need to see "Incoming missiles" on the screen.

Battles aren't always about damaging the other mechs. Controlling the field of combat is a valid and useful tactic.

I'm really not in a position to really speculate on 12 man's using this...I get the concept. Put a NARC on someone and shoot LRM's to supress...

But it seems like you have to have one mech wasting tonnage on LRM's and a second mech wasting tonnage on NARC and have the NARC mech risk getting one shotted while he approaches to apply the NARC.

I'm just not sure that's worth it when the other team is going full meta.

Now I am very comfortable talking about it in PUG's. NARC will be used as an item to troll people and it will take advantage of the same people LRM's already take advantage of in PUG's. New people and people who just aren't very good at the game.

So once again, I'm very "meh" that this is our quarterly surprise fix.

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Still, even with these changes to Narc, the amount of effort, tonnage, and tactics it takes to use LRM's against ECM enemies is simply inefficient when you can just load up ECM and front load damage with AC's and PPC's.

This is it in a nutshell.

[DocBach]

From how I interpret it, if a 'Mech is hit with Narc, it's Narc'd for the entire 30 second duration, and can no longer be taken off by damage or destruction of location.

[Heffay]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm really not in a position to really speculate on 12 man's using this...I get the concept. Put a NARC on someone and shoot LRM's to supress...

But it seems like you have to have one mech wasting tonnage on LRM's and a second mech wasting tonnage on NARC and have the NARC mech risk getting one shotted while he approaches to apply the NARC.

I'm just not sure that's worth it when the other team is going full meta.

Now I am very comfortable talking about it in PUG's. NARC will be used as an item to troll people and it will take advantage of the same people LRM's already take advantage of in PUG's. New people and people who just aren't very good at the game.

If your 4 tons of weapons can neutralize 30-60 tons of their weapons, that seems like a fair tradeoff. People will be more likely to take AMS now too, since if you are caught in the open a means of minimizing the damage is essential.

And you don't need to have dedicated LRM boats either. If you have missile slots and are a sniper, throw in an LRM-5 and contribute to the suppression with the others. If something is NARCed while you're repositioning, it is a brainless activity to lock on and lob a few in their direction along with the rest of your team.

It's going to change a lot of the metagame.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm really not in a position to really speculate on 12 man's using this...I get the concept. Put a NARC on someone and shoot LRM's to supress...

But it seems like you have to have one mech wasting tonnage on LRM's and a second mech wasting tonnage on NARC and have the NARC mech risk getting one shotted while he approaches to apply the NARC.

I'm just not sure that's worth it when the other team is going full meta.

Now I am very comfortable talking about it in PUG's. NARC will be used as an item to troll people and it will take advantage of the same people LRM's already take advantage of in PUG's. New people and people who just aren't very good at the game.

So once again, I'm very "meh" that this is our quarterly surprise fix.



This is it in a nutshell.

tonnage is only wasted on LRMs if you can't hold locks. If your lance is built around that and teamwork (UAVs, TAG, NARC, Arty and Airstrikes) not only can you still lay out vicious damage, but as Heffay said, you can dictate the battlefield which if the other 8 mechs are the least bit competent, pretty well guarantees a win. Even the "Pro" 12 mans seem unwilling to take LRMs in their teeth. (I have actually dictated battle flow from a LRM locust..... just because people responded to the incoming missile message without actually looking at the number of missile coming).

A well designed LRM lance can do things poptarts can't, regardless of the Meta. And a well coordinated 12 man running a lance of Poptarts, a LRM Lance and a Wolf Pack? Damn near impossible to respond to. Sadly, it's hard to get that level of discipline unless you are in a full time comp gaming crew (which TBH I am glad I don't do anymore. Now I can actually have FUN playing)

[Roland]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

From how I interpret it, if a 'Mech is hit with Narc, it's Narc'd for the entire 30 second duration, and can no longer be taken off by damage or destruction of location.

Yeah, which in itself is kind of a large change.

In TT, the Narc stays in place until the armor of the location it hits is destroyed.

Here, it'll be there even if the location is ENTIRELY destroyed.

So, they've moved directly from being worse compared to the TT implementation, to better... not even including the ECM negation effects.

Don't get me wrong.... At this point, any balance changes are welcome, just to mix things up and possibly make some progress. But this kind of thing is what really benefits from having a test server, since balance changes can really ONLY be truly measured when you put things in the hands of actual players.

It seems like the test server is really never used for balance change testing, and is only used to test engineering changes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 23 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

wise words

can't really disagree. And I was wondering about what would happen if the section is destroyed. Kind of hope the NARC stays attached to it, TBH........

[Chronojam]

wanderer, on 23 January 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Basically, what we've got here is a NARC round that works a lot like the iNARC ammo which puts an ECCM field on the target- effectively 30 seconds of "counter mode".

AND it gets the usual NARC beacon effect. If GECM in MWO is GECM+1 tabletop, this is NARC+1. It's gonna be nightmare fuel for slower 'Mechs- a scout can now NARC, leaving the target visible and easily tracked by every enemy LRM around.

That translates to "get your shiny metal butt in cover because the rain is coming". It's also a suppression weapon- a poptarter/ridge humper with NARC on isn't going to want to do anything except button up until the beacon powers down with this change. It also means breaking visual doesn't mean losing sensor contact while this is active.

The more I think about NARC, the better I like the new version.

It's too bad we had no alternative-ammo selection options. It would make the LB-10X AC not {Scrap}, and we could perhaps have various NARC ammo -- Tracking pod, ECCM pod, Explosive pod. That would be interesting.

It sounds like the NARC changes that are coming mean that it's not just an ECCM field, but it will actively shut off enemy ECCM. That is to say, if you are in an ECM light-fight and peg your enemy, he loses the ability to ECCM you. Curious.

[Effectz]

How about looking at SRM's Paul,they've only been broken for months,I guess NARC beacon takes priority of course.

[DocBach]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

If your 4 tons of weapons can neutralize 30-60 tons of their weapons, that seems like a fair tradeoff. People will be more likely to take AMS now too, since if you are caught in the open a means of minimizing the damage is essential.

And you don't need to have dedicated LRM boats either. If you have missile slots and are a sniper, throw in an LRM-5 and contribute to the suppression with the others. If something is NARCed while you're repositioning, it is a brainless activity to lock on and lob a few in their direction along with the rest of your team.

It's going to change a lot of the metagame.

Wait, how does one four ton weapon invalidate 60 tons of weapons? ECM only weighs a ton and a half.

[Mystere]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

ECM a bit more balanced.

Let's be honest here. ECM just got nerfed, and in a big way too. So everyone should rejoice, unless of course you were using ECM as a crutch.

[Heffay]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Wait, how does one four ton weapon invalidate 60 tons of weapons? ECM only weighs a ton and a half.

You take their sniper lance and make them hide for 30 seconds. Rinse. Repeat.

Even if you get them to back down from a ridge for a second so you can hold your side, you change who gets the first shot. If they come up, you can fire and duck down before they have a chance to aim and fire.

[Chronojam]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

I believe the answer for the problem is provided to us by Tactical Operations rules for ECM - break up ECM's function into three modes to where in certain modes it counters other information warfare pieces but other modes of function like missile defense that are countered by Beagle/Narc.

I like the sound of this, too.

I creates more depth and opportunity for player agency and tactical reaction.

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 23 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Let's be honest here. ECM just got nerfed, and in a big way too. So everyone should rejoice, unless of course you were using ECM as a crutch.

No, not really. This change to Narc still requires a weapon that weighs twice the weight of ECM, requires ammo, and requires a pilot be able to hit a target inside an ECM bubble.

Again, the amount of effort and tonnage to counter ECM is way out of balance with the amount of tonnage and effort required to use it.

Why would I or a competitive gamer waste my time with this, when I can forgo missiles altogether and put all my damage exactly where I want it with AC's and PPC's and not worry about silly things like hoping someone can take down ECM long enough for me to hold locks?

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

You take their sniper lance and make them hide for 30 seconds. Rinse. Repeat.

Even if you get them to back down from a ridge for a second so you can hold your side, you change who gets the first shot. If they come up, you can fire and duck down before they have a chance to aim and fire.

Once their sniper lance pops back down behind their cover, they have better immunity against LRM's than ECM.

UNLESS Narc added some extra pathing to LRM's to let them cruise missile over terrain obstructions - which would be sort of in line with its table top abilities of allowing indirect fire without line of sight.....

Edited by DocBach, 23 January 2014 - 10:57 AM.