518 replies to this topic

[Chronojam]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

So really, there is no tactical decision made other than deciding to use a 'Mech with ECM, which are also just by chance the versions of the chassis with the best, preferred hardpoints, because any consideration dealing with weight does not exist.

Sounds like a lot of tactical consideration must be used to employ ECM, I stand mistaken.

Back to the topic of Narc - Ironically, the things that ECM defended against will leave players defenseless against them, like Narc.

To reiterate, if ECM is going to have a missile defense mode, don't make it the standard mode. Ghost target mode from the lore spams the enemy radar with white noise to increase lock on time. Get rid of the stealth field, as stealth is suppose to be granted by Stealth Armor (go figure!); targets in an ECM field can be targeted and tracked, but lock on times are increased. Narc and Beagle would counter this mode. To simulate the white noise to sensors, the closer you get to a 'Mech in a Ghost ECM field, the more static appears on HUD elements like radar/damage readout, and the longer target information like chassis type/damage readout takes to update

Disrupt would also have to get rid of the target and tracking defeat, or else Ghost mode would be rendered useless. To provide denial of information targeted 'Mechs in a disrupt field would not be identified, and no target information would be given -- you could track the target on radar but you would not know what it is or what it is carrying. Disrupt mode protects against the effects of Narc beacon and Beagle; if you get hit by a Narc pod and the enemy can track you wherever you go, being under a disrupt bubble stops that.

Make information warfare multi-tiered and require actual tactical decisions, rather than having one box in one mode do everything.

Yes. This. I love it.

[Sybreed]

Chronojam, on 23 January 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

It's too bad we had no alternative-ammo selection options. It would make the LB-10X AC not {Scrap}, and we could perhaps have various NARC ammo -- Tracking pod, ECCM pod, Explosive pod. That would be interesting.

It sounds like the NARC changes that are coming mean that it's not just an ECCM field, but it will actively shut off enemy ECCM. That is to say, if you are in an ECM light-fight and peg your enemy, he loses the ability to ECCM you. Curious.

I PMed Thomas about this a few months ago and said they would implement switchable ammo.

Now, as to when we're gonna see this....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

You take their sniper lance and make them hide for 30 seconds. Rinse. Repeat.

Even if you get them to back down from a ridge for a second so you can hold your side, you change who gets the first shot. If they come up, you can fire and duck down before they have a chance to aim and fire.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sniper lance? Or a single Sniper?

My theoretical was that you could potentially NARC one person and move off. Now you want a light mech to stay put to NARC an entire Lance so you can keep them pinned?

[Sybreed]

I vote that Docbach should get on a balance committee with PGI. I really think he'd make the game better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sniper lance? Or a single Sniper?

My theoretical was that you could potentially NARC one person and move off. Now you want a light mech to stay put to NARC an entire Lance so you can keep them pinned?

Usually lances stay close enough together that many of them get the incoming missile warning and move. Or if they see their flank folding, move to stay with the pack. When I run my NarcoRaven, I don't NARC the whole lance. Don't need to. (I do however hide and lase anyone else I can see with my TAG).

[DocBach]

Sybreed, on 23 January 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

I vote that Docbach should get on a balance committee with PGI. I really think he'd make the game better.

When I was drunk with PGI at the launch party I tried to explain my ideas but I don't think they came out very coherent, Russ and I were too busy being amazed by 3rd printers making Atlas heads - damn you, PPC mixed drinks!

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I've never tried the NARC because it sucks. Suppose I'll go to the testing grounds though I won't be able to throw it through as many hoops as I'd like without getting it into a match.

IMO, if the NARC acted like a full ECM counter and UAV that would be way OP for a scout + lrms + direct fire line.

Example is you plant the target and then everyone on your team can see location and target the enemy for 30 seconds.... regardless of LoS. Is this already the way it is? Just the damage ticker doesn't allow for more than one volley before dropping off?

[Bishop Steiner]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

[size=4]
When I was drunk with PGI at the launch party I tried to explain my ideas but I don't think they came out very coherent, Russ and I were too busy being amazed by 3rd printers making Atlas heads - damn you, PPC mixed drinks!

I dunno if Russ was coherent enough for it to have mattered. The Daveys got him SMASHED!

[DocBach]

I could buy a Gold 'Mech and still owe PGI for my bar tab.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'm hoping this means we'll be seeing more balance stuff in the near future. There's still a lot of stuff about the game balance that's still broken

EDIT: Also, this needs to be a Command Chair post. Posting stuff all over the place makes it hard to keep track of announcements.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 23 January 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

No, not really. This change to Narc still requires a weapon that weighs twice the weight of ECM, requires ammo, and requires a pilot be able to hit a target inside an ECM bubble.

Again, the amount of effort and tonnage to counter ECM is way out of balance with the amount of tonnage and effort required to use it.

Considering that I often like to go in, expose, harass, and possibly even take out ECM carriers, I now have more options available to me.

YMMV of course..

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 23 January 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Considering that I often like to go in, expose, harass, and possibly even take out ECM carriers, I now have more options available to me.

YMMV of course..

It'll be a good counter in pug matches against players who use ECM as a crutch for LRM immunity, but most organized play forgoes LRM's as they are inconsistent weapons that take way too much logistics and coordination to use.

That guy who says "press R to hold locks!" isn't present in competitive games.

[Almond Brown]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

It'll be a good counter in pug matches against players who use ECM as a crutch for LRM immunity, but most organized play forgoes LRM's as they are inconsistent weapons that take way too much logistics and coordination to use.

That guy who says "press R to hold locks!" isn't present in competitive games.

LOL! When I read that part about Pugs and Teams I had to laugh. The new NARC will be better for teams that don't have the Logistics or coordination that Pre-mades are so very vilified for? Really.

Most players don't take truly useful tools simply because it might deny them more pew pew.

Why would anyone ever take a 3t piece of 30 second pro-missile gear (12K a ton of ammo) into a PUG match without knowing LRM's will even be present and or in good quantity when they could take a UAV module, last longer carries a larger reveal area and for no weight and only 28K more C-bills?

Perhaps I just read it wrong?

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 January 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[DocBach]

Yes, it might help out in Pug matches where you get guys who drop with Catapults and Stalkers without any way of getting through ECM by themselves and want you to do it for them so they can sit 600m behind everyone lobbing LRM's at unseen enemies.

Competitive teams don't waste the tonnage and time on boats like that because of the amount of effort it takes to allow one or two guys to be able to use LRM's can be better used destroying the enemy with direct fire.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes, it might help out in Pug matches where you get guys who drop with Catapults and Stalkers without any way of getting through ECM by themselves and want you to do it for them so they can sit 600m behind everyone lobbing LRM's at unseen enemies.

Competitive teams don't waste the tonnage and time on boats like that because of the amount of effort it takes to allow one or two guys to be able to use LRM's can be better used destroying the enemy with direct fire.

This basically.

LRM's abuse bad players, this new NARC will amplify that. But it's not something you'd see in serious match play.

I weep for CW, when matches matter. People are going to get yelled at for using things like LRM's or LBX-10's.

[Chronojam]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

This basically.

LRM's abuse bad players, this new NARC will amplify that. But it's not something you'd see in serious match play.

I weep for CW, when matches matter. People are going to get yelled at for using things like LRM's or LBX-10's.

Or pulse lasers!

[Deathlike]

To the post that spoke about the NARC projectile in comparing it to other weapons, here's a simple breakdown of the other missile weapons:
LRMs - they are slow, so they are not even optimal at the long range that they provide (mid-range at best)
Streaks - they always hit their target (assuming no obstructions)
SRMs - depending on whether you have Artemis, they have an LBX-ish like spread (and I'm not entirely sure how ECM affects them other than perhaps reverting to non-Artemis wide clustering) and are not the most effective against light mechs due to the projectile speed (unless, the light mech is shutdown or is very close to you).

NARC's projectile speed may be FASTER than it, but as it stands, it will be harder to hit a light mech that carries ECM than any heavy/assault mech you come across. That and I'm not even sure what the NARC trajectory is (since, I never use it).

As a side note, dual AMS solutions will auto-kill NARC (so, two mechs with AMS clustered together will immediately blow up the NARC) by design. Still, that doesn't say much for the Atlas-K.

[Bishop Steiner]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I could buy a Gold 'Mech and still owe PGI for my bar tab.

We had a teammate so sloshed he was hitting on the coat check girl...and I'm pretty sure she had an adams apple.........

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

This basically.

LRM's abuse bad players, this new NARC will amplify that. But it's not something you'd see in serious match play.

I weep for CW, when matches matter. People are going to get yelled at for using things like LRM's or LBX-10's.

when MWO develops serious play match, I'll keep that in mind. Right now we have badly balanced weapons that lead to a lemming meta that is abused to the moon. None of that really does anything to show if one is truly competitive or not. Especially when some of the self proclaimed kings of 12 man belong to guilds that are vilified on every F2P forum for using hacks, exploits and aimbots.

On the few times (recently, ran em a lot more pre launch) I have bothered putting and actually running a 12 man, we have used a missile lance just fine. Won some, lost some. Which is how it should be. What they aren't is the easiest path to victory. And THAT is what most game metas boil down to. The quickest way to ezmode. Just because Poptarting direct fire weapons is the easiest way to be competitive doesn't make it the ONLY way.

Deathlike, on 23 January 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

To the post that spoke about the NARC projectile in comparing it to other weapons, here's a simple breakdown of the other missile weapons:
LRMs - they are slow, so they are not even optimal at the long range that they provide (mid-range at best)
Streaks - they always hit their target (assuming no obstructions)
SRMs - depending on whether you have Artemis, they have an LBX-ish like spread (and I'm not entirely sure how ECM affects them other than perhaps reverting to non-Artemis wide clustering) and are not the most effective against light mechs due to the projectile speed (unless, the light mech is shutdown or is very close to you).

NARC's projectile speed may be FASTER than it, but as it stands, it will be harder to hit a light mech that carries ECM than any heavy/assault mech you come across. That and I'm not even sure what the NARC trajectory is (since, I never use it).

As a side note, dual AMS solutions will auto-kill NARC (so, two mechs with AMS clustered together will immediately blow up the NARC) by design. Still, that doesn't say much for the Atlas-K.

I do agree, that LRMs need a projectile speed buff, though that may expose other balance issues. But anything past 600 meters, unless it's an assault mech caught in the open, should generally have nothing to fear. (Though properly tagged or narced has made a difference there.).

I say the slow projectile speed, mixed with the enhanced direct fire ranges are definitely keeping LRMs back from being optimal. Doesn't mean they can't be used effectively though.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 January 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Raising my opinion one forum post at a time Paul. Thank you.

Haven't used one in near a year. Will be fun to play with.