518 replies to this topic

[Conreg]

A NARC buff is welcome news, and I look forward to testing it out.

As a current NARC user... I am well aware of its current pro's and cons.

That said... I predict the change will be a little too much. Think about it... the beacon canceling the ECM? Is that necessary? We could still have a beacon broadcast THROUGH ECM...


... I am going to go off and make a wild suggestion that could likely be overly complicated and unrealistic in terms of potential implementation... it is however, a brilliant idea, of the kind I think will be well received. (No, I do not always laud my own ideas but I am truly fond of this one!)

The Idea:

Let NARC be its own separate target. (Much like a UAV) It will broadcast through ECM, but NOT cancel the ECM the host mech it is affixed to... also it should give NO target info in regards to its host. It is just a parasite beacon that you can target and lock onto with LRMS, (and perhaps even attract SRMS?) It SHOULD have a damage threshold, but only if the bacon itself gets hit, This would make the location it is planted on marginal, adequate, or ideal. The potential shift in tactical game play is fun to imagine. .

Imagine you could NARC a mech, and essentially, be able to track it's movement... even if you have no LRMs to fire at it. A simple beacon, it could show up on the map if within a certain range. (Boosted by BAP or a module) (1000 Meters with BAP) (400-500 without.)

It would change the game, in a tactically brilliant sort of way. It is tough to apply NARC at times... keep it so. The tonnage and ammo qty are FINE as they are. NARC is for specialists, not spammers. It is and should remain a specialty tool for scouts. We scouts need a reason to stick our necks out, this could be a reason.

Again, I'm thrilled with the potential change proposed in the original post. I am thrilled that NARC is being looked at again. By paying attention to NARC, you encourage me with the fact that this can actually continue to be a 'Thinking mans shooter."

I look forward to planting a NARC on the naysayers.

[Bishop Steiner]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 January 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Who is to say they hide? Maybe they just live with the fact that the enemy can fire at them anyway and they can fire for longer?

And then, as the metagame evolves, people realize that sniping alone isn't a safe bet anymore, because you expose yourself to LRM fire. But LRM fire has a weakness - close range builds. So people will counter those happy LRM boating Narcers with brawlers. Maybe people will start mixing up things, and keep LRMs, Brawlers and Snipers in a team so they can react to the enemy tactics and movements with the right counter.

Of course, I am not so naive to belive that this is what will absolutely happen - it could very well be the change is too little to change the dynamics, or that its too strong and brawlers still can't help the situation against the new LRM/Narc flavour. THat's all possible. It will very likely require further tweaking.

But this alone could be a goal - if LRM / Narcers don't counter Snipers? Buff it some more. If Brawlers fail to counter the new LRM/Narcers, buff either brawlers, or if you worry about Time To KIll getting too short, nerf LRMs and Snipers again.

It's possible Mustrum, but In my experience, pretty rare. And we can debate hypotheticals all day. There are always exceptions to the rule. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have rules to begin with. Will NARC prove useful and dictate every battle? Let's hope not, as that would be unbalanced. Will it now be able to have an impact? Yes. But because it will still be simpler to go EzMode and poptart, I foresee the myth of the impossibility to compete with LRMs to continue, just because most of the "Pros" on here really just go with whatever is easiest. And there is no denying that successful NARC and LRM action would require higher coordination and discipline. However for those who are willing to invest both, they already are effective. With the changes in NARC, they might actually be on even footing with Poptarting, if used as part of a coordinated whole.

As I have said, LRMs can hit where PPCs and Gauss can't and vice versa. Combining LRMS with Poptarts, allows you to do both. I just wish they would do more to minimize the boring poptart meta, period. My personal solution would be to have the weapons remain de-sync'd from the jump shake for a full second after thrust has stopped. Sure the current "Pros" will cry about it, but I really don't give a {Scrap} about that. If they are really as good as they think, they'll adapt.

[Noesis]

Kjudoon, on 23 January 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Now that's a great group of guys right there. I'm a bit better off than that, and agree, at the top level of play, you can't deviate from the meta much if at all because it is, in the end, the most efficient way to slay an opponent with two caveats.

Meta requires high quality (read expensive) equipment and controls
Meta requires high level of skill (read lots of matches and practice)

We almost do need a skill tier section. I don't think it's in play for 12 men or somehow PuG skill is being counted as 12man skill.

Doesn't matter Kudjoon.

I simply wouldn't let someones' prescriptive opinion of how the game "should be played" from their perspective stop you from using LRMs how you see fit.

And if LRMs have no place in the current Meta then that needs resolving with it being adjusted, hence this thread identifying a change to NARC as a movement in that direction.

The only reason LRMs are not so utilised in 12 mans has been due to poor supporting e-war tools and lack of confidence with a complicated arrangement using spotters and Comms to beneift, but if you can get a lance working together using NARC and tag as a "force multiplier" with LRMs you can effectively add extra Mechs onto the field in terms of overall firepower.

There are appropriate tactics for good LRM use as well, so no need to placate to any posturing with the existing Meta, you don't have to follow the existing predictable format here at all. Let those unwilling to apply variety and lack of teamwork fall behind on training their "options" (especially when map choice come into effect) and concentrate on using that extra arrow for your bow when LRM use is improved with this NARC change and other modifications to game balance.

[Tuann]

my goodness, what a wonderful upgrade !!

it will be an effective boost for any light pilot who can equip missiles ! their role gets insta-upgraded, chance to have more XP tru narc assists etc,... sweet !
it will positively affect the game flow, as staying behind low cover and jumping up to snipe might become dangerous if light pilots dart around and do narc hit & run tactics.
this way, there will be more incentive to actually move up to the enemy, effectively upgrading the position and use of brawler mechs.
ECM bubble steam rolling will now have a viable counter strategy. (risky for the point light pilots, but, nevertheless, something worth taking a risk for)

looking forward to get it implemented and test out the initial thoughts.

less looking forward to being the first atlas to be Narc'ed, looking up through the 'incoming missile' warning signal and watch the sky go dark from the volley of 2 lances worth of LuRM's being launched by AWS-8R missile boats :-) :-)
(but it will be a blast!)

[TygerLily]

I hope the counter ECM properties:

1) Cancels the area effect of ECM if the NARC hits a mech mounting the counter measure.

2) Makes a mech targetable if they are within an ECM bubble (i.e. all others would still be hidden except the guy who's NARC'd)

Regardless, this should be an interesting change!

[wanderer]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

So why does the D-DC being Narc'd stop the Highlanders? They're still only targetable for a moment when they pop for their shot, and you lose lock once they pop back down. Even if you keep lock, the cover they are behind will absorb the missiles.

Now, if Narc made missiles traverse better over hills......

It also means that for 30 seconds, you know exactly where that NARC'd 'Mech is, even if he moves- you even know when he's moving up to poptart and have guns pointed and firing...plus he's the only steady target in an entire line of poptarts with a big ol "NARC" tag stuck to his targeting square to advertise it. We already know how easy it is to get people to chase the red dot. This guarantees it sticks out for half a minute of delicious, targetable fun.

[DocBach]

We need Paul to clarify what the Narc does - if the D-DC is Narc'd, is the whole bubble popped?

Or is just the beacon targetable? If the D-DC is Narc'd, is he the only one targetable, so the HGN's he's protecting with ECM targetable as well?

Paul used the phrase EMP effect, so it might be the former, sort of like hitting it with a PPC. If that's the case, what if you hit an ECM protected 'Mech that isn't the origin of the ECM field?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DocBach, on 24 January 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

We need Paul to clarify what the Narc does - if the D-DC is Narc'd, is the whole bubble popped?

Or is just the beacon targetable? If the D-DC is Narc'd, is he the only one targetable, so the HGN's he's protecting with ECM targetable as well?

Paul used the phrase EMP effect, so it might be the former, sort of like hitting it with a PPC. If that's the case, what if you hit an ECM protected 'Mech that isn't the origin of the ECM field?

Wait...you want Paul to come here and thoroughly explain something? That would make far too much sense.

Infact it makes so much sense, one must wonder why it didn't happen in the first place.

[Wintersdark]

DocBach, on 24 January 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

We need Paul to clarify what the Narc does - if the D-DC is Narc'd, is the whole bubble popped?

Or is just the beacon targetable? If the D-DC is Narc'd, is he the only one targetable, so the HGN's he's protecting with ECM targetable as well?

Paul used the phrase EMP effect, so it might be the former, sort of like hitting it with a PPC. If that's the case, what if you hit an ECM protected 'Mech that isn't the origin of the ECM field?

Unless someone (*who knows) says otherwise, I figure the obvious implementation as per what Paul said is that it'll disable gECM modules on a mech the NARC is attached to, exactly as a PPC does.

Hit a non-ECM mech with a PPC within an ECM bubble, what happens? Nothing. Likewise, I wouldn't expect NARC to do anything to a non-ECM mech within an active bubble - though it may broadcast through ECM now, I wouldn't count on that.

Still, being able to fully disable a ECM unit by tagging the mech carrying it is a valuable tool.

It's not as good in random pugs, because it requires coordination to properly exploit. But in a 4-man group? A NARC spotter could be very valuable in a couple different ways.

[C E Dwyer]

Great Troll thread

Seriously though when I thought about narc I just thought just double the reward, people might start using it again.

This is so much better !

[Kjudoon]

Cathy, on 24 January 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Great Troll thread

Seriously though when I thought about narc I just thought just double the reward, people might start using it again.

This is so much better !

I like the double reward idea too...

[C E Dwyer]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 January 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Who is to say they hide? Maybe they just live with the fact that the enemy can fire at them anyway and they can fire for longer?

And then, as the metagame evolves, people realize that sniping alone isn't a safe bet anymore, because you expose yourself to LRM fire. But LRM fire has a weakness - close range builds. So people will counter those happy LRM boating Narcers with brawlers. Maybe people will start mixing up things, and keep LRMs, Brawlers and Snipers in a team so they can react to the enemy tactics and movements with the right counter.

Of course, I am not so naive to belive that this is what will absolutely happen - it could very well be the change is too little to change the dynamics, or that its too strong and brawlers still can't help the situation against the new LRM/Narc flavour. THat's all possible. It will very likely require further tweaking.

But this alone could be a goal - if LRM / Narcers don't counter Snipers? Buff it some more. If Brawlers fail to counter the new LRM/Narcers, buff either brawlers, or if you worry about Time To KIll getting too short, nerf LRMs and Snipers again.

I hope your projection is correct, mixing up the game can only make it better, far safer to nerf the fidelity on the zoom module, safer for the team the sniper is on half the time, its a much over used and abused module, and its dangerous for a newb to have on your team in its present state, and I can reduce the armour on the back of my mechs and trees and mountains can stop trying to hide as the gauss gonk becomes an endangered spiece.

Edited by Cathy, 24 January 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Almond Brown]

Kjudoon, on 23 January 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

NARC that HGN and he's on the other side of cover with a crybaby going 'shoot here shoot here', you've got 30 seconds to get me and that's enough time for 5-8 salvos that he probably can't hide from them all. How do I know this? I've been learning how to be a counterbattery against those same poptarts with actually good success when the conditions line up. This will just make my job all the easier.

It is all about the angles baby. Soon the tears will flow when the Lights (spiders) with Narc start racing through crowds of them Assault slugs, NARC'ing 4 or 5 of them and then the Steel Rain follows shortly after.

There will not be room for everyone to hide behind that same piece of near by cover.

It will be glorious around here once again. LOL! So glorious will those tears be. LOL!

[Kjudoon]

Almond Brown, on 24 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

It is all about the angles baby. Soon the tears will flow when the Lights (spiders) with Narc start racing through crowds of them Assault slugs, NARC'ing 4 or 5 of them and then the Steel Rain follows shortly after.

There will not be room for everyone to hide behind that same piece of near by cover.

It will be glorious around here once again. LOL! So glorious will those tears be. LOL!

Not to mention spiders, commandos, ravens and Cicadas with NARCed butt issues. QQ kachoo.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 January 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Roland, on 22 January 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Thank you.

One thing you might consider is running changes like this on a test server, so you can see exactly what kind of impact it's gonna have.

You will definitely attract the kind of people who will do everything they can to exploit this change.... this would be something to take a day off from work to enjoy. Using Narc is so much fun. as it is some matches people never use lrms due to the proliferation of ECM people just stopped taking them or run the risk of having them rendered almost useless.

not sure why all the doom and gloom its not like tag hasn't been a counter to ECM. The only difference is now you can NARC em and leave em in relative safety.

The EMC/NARC user just became very powerful. muuuhahahhahaha.

Edited by Tombstoner, 24 January 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Honestly that's not going to be enough. NARCs need tracking ability, a huge range boost, something; it took increasing their range to 1000m and giving them a weapons lock to make them somewhat decent in Living Legends, and there, they were huge homing beacons rather than just a buff.

Also NARC needs to stack with Artemis.

If NARC doesn't stack with the thing that any serious LRM boat is using, it's freaking useless. If someone manages to get a Artemis+TAG+NARC combo going, they deserve everything they get out of it, because that is not cheap or easy to obtain.

[Coralld]

Victor Morson, on 24 January 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Also NARC needs to stack with Artemis.

If NARC doesn't stack with the thing that any serious LRM boat is using, it's freaking useless. If someone manages to get a Artemis+TAG+NARC combo going, they deserve everything they get out of it, because that is not cheap or easy to obtain.

NARC gives 50% increase to missile accuracy with line of site of LRM users and stacks with TAG for another 30% for a total of 80% missile accuracy. Now, make Artemis stack with TAG and NARC, which gives another 20%, you get 100% missile accuracy. Add future hit detection fixes to missiles... What could possibly go wrong?

Edited by Coralld, 24 January 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I'm with Roadbeer on this one.

PGI has a history of making changes that are too drastic and then either having to roll them back wholly or partially (LRM flight patterns, UAC jam rate) or coming to another solution against a rather large amount of well-reasoned argument (ghost heat and 1.4x heat sinks vs. stable heat cap and actual double heat sinks). I, for one, am immensely pleased that the number of changes to NARC being made at once is limited.

Perhaps they aren't the changes you wanted, but they are changes, and PGI is actually not changing a huge array of interlocking mechanics nor are they making a massive numerical change all at once. If anything, I think they're still making too many changes at once from a game-designing perspective, but it's a big improvement over some past things.

So stop whining about it, accept and test the changes, and then give feedback after you experience how it actually plays, rather than deciding exactly what functional result (and whether or not it's good enough) the changes are going to have the instant they're announced.

Game design comes from both sides, and if we as a playerbase are going to be unreasonable enough about game design to decide we know exactly what will result from a change the moment it's proposed, then we have no ground to stand on for not accepting it when PGI does the same thing and makes unilateral changes without allowing themselves space to redact them or reduce them.

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Elli Gujar, 24 January 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[ReXspec]

Does this mean PGI actually listens to good suggestions...?

Everything I know is a lie. .-.

[Deathlike]

Coralld, on 24 January 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

NARC gives 50% increase to missile accuracy with line of site of LRM users and stacks with TAG for another 30% for a total of 80% missile accuracy. Now, make Artemis stack with TAG and NARC, which gives another 20%, you get 100% missile accuracy. Add future hit detection fixes to missiles... What could possibly go wrong?

TAG actually stacks with Artemis, and yet TAG only consumes a lot less resources outside of constant LOS with the TAG. NARCs currently get NEITHER bonuses from Artemis.

http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/

NARC+Artemis do not stack. Only NARC+TAG will stack.

Edit:

Gross typo+clarification.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 January 2014 - 03:04 PM.