518 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

ExAstris, on 19 March 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

After having spent several rounds with the updated NARC:

Reasons why it won't get used by anything other than boats:
It only has two functions outside LRM spotting, position data without mech LOS and ECM countering. The former is done vastly better for scouts by the UAV and at no cost in the loadout.

Except I can shoot down a UAV...and do whenever I see one. In addition, in a group, popping UAV makes a BUNCH of mechs suddenly appear...and in PUGs it's difficult to coordinate fire on one target.

NARC is 30 seconds of guaranteed targeting on a SINGLE...that can be invaluable. A single target appears with a lock that can't be broken? You have just acquired your entire teams attention and focused them on that one, poor dude.

[wanderer]

Quote

NARC is 30 seconds of guaranteed targeting on a SINGLE...that can be invaluable. A single target appears with a lock that can't be broken? You have just acquired your entire teams attention and focused them on that one, poor dude.

Anyone who doesn't understand this hasn't seen half your team go "SQUIRREL!" and chase the first light 'Mech that pops up as a target. They don't call it a "NARC -beacon-" for nothing.

[Chronojam]

Reno Blade, on 20 March 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Instead of one mech with 4 LRM15, you could add one LRM15 to 4 mechs and use more mixed loadouts.
But this would need more "skill" aka teamwork to work

Look at this guy pretending you can easily negotiate what mechs you bring to the next map (as if you even knew what map it was going to be) and then coordinate in-game. When the mech designation letters actually stay the same to every player, you still better have quick fingers to type "Catapult G left of me in E5 I'm the Jenner fire one LRM15 on my mark" "3" "2" "1" "Mark"

Because we have no voice support and no pregame coordination and you still can't check your teammate status to see his weapon condition to know if he's in a reload cycle, low on ammo, or if he even brought an LRM15.

[ExAstris]

Reno Blade, on 20 March 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

What ExAstris said with one change.
Where the old LRM speed and AMS Range (120ms/s and 200m) downed about 5 LRMs, the new values do about 4
You can see the difference in the graph in the lower left if you look at AMS(200) and LRM(120) (first purple spot at 5.8) vs AMS(240) and LRM(175) (second teal spot at 4.8):

Good call, I spitballed the math to quickly, 5.8 vs 4.8 are indeed the correct old and new numbers (with AMS range module 2 now giving you 5.12).

It should also be noted that the actual value you get to shoot down when immobile is usually a bit higher than the calculated numbers though since LRMs have arcing trajectories and often (not always) spend longer in your AMS zone due to that arc.

Ghost Badger, on 20 March 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Except I can shoot down a UAV...and do whenever I see one. In addition, in a group, popping UAV makes a BUNCH of mechs suddenly appear...and in PUGs it's difficult to coordinate fire on one target.

NARC is 30 seconds of guaranteed targeting on a SINGLE...that can be invaluable. A single target appears with a lock that can't be broken? You have just acquired your entire teams attention and focused them on that one, poor dude.

A few things, UAVs are rarely shot down in my experience pugging (at least not in any timely fashion), but in larger group drops perhaps this is different. That still doesn't change the fact that the UAV doesn't conflict with your main loadout and provides a lot more information than the NARC does.

But you do have a point about teams mindlessly following the first target lock they get. Information is hugely important in this game. But a few things should be noted here before accepting this as a completely justifying benefit.

First, anything that isn't ECM'd is going to automatically show up anyways, and unless its in a big group, you're probably going to be fighting it anyways, meaning intermittent locks at the worst, so you aren't gaining much info in a lot of circumstances. To compound that, you have to actually hit the target, which means you have to be inside 450 and make a good shot. Not terribly hard against an atlas, but good luck nabbing a light mech without closing to BAP/knife range where your lock is guaranteed anyways. And further, your lock isn't guaranteed with NARC the same way it is with TAG for two reasons, TAG shows up over multiple overlapping ECMs, NARC doesn't (this makes no real-world sense, but its the way the game is programmed). Also, TAG works at much longer ranges.

And even if you do get NARC to work and don't screw yourself in the process, you need LRMs on your team to take advantage of it. Even now as people are screaming LRMpocalypse, there are really only about 2-4 boats on a team, and most of those are trial stalkers. Once the novelty wears off and that champion gets rotated out, a few extra seconds of target contact aren't going to mean much difference as opposed to a good 5-10 second spot that lets people look&lock so they know what it is and where it is.

Not getting that information at all in the first place is what is insanely powerful, because then people can't plan anything, they just drive blind into the entire enemy lance. Hence why ECM is batshit crazy powerful. Its total denial of LRMs is just icing on the cake.



So while you're point isn't invalid, it isn't weighty enough to be a forceful counterargument. NARC might get used by non-LRM boats in the current environment the way ECMless variants of ECM mechs are.

You might see it every once in a while, but its usually for fun and in lieu of objectively better options. Hence, NARC needs a little more love.

Edited by ExAstris, 20 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Gotta disagree. How long does UAV last? And it CAN be shot down...even if pugs don't.

TAG needs LOS...with a Narc I will shoot and scoot. And in 30 seconds, if that DDC I tagged isn't down, I will do it AGAIN. And AGAIN. Until it's dead.

Still, you may be right...gimme 2-3 weeks and we'll see what pans out

[Mcgral18]

Ghost Badger, on 20 March 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Gotta disagree. How long does UAV last? And it CAN be shot down...even if pugs don't.

TAG needs LOS...with a Narc I will shoot and scoot. And in 30 seconds, if that DDC I tagged isn't down, I will do it AGAIN. And AGAIN. Until it's dead.

Still, you may be right...gimme 2-3 weeks and we'll see what pans out

Just remember, if there are 2 DDCs, you have to narc both. If the have a spider friend...good luck.

With that said, I am really enjoying the new NARC. If you want to really counter it, get 2 or 3 ECMs, one of which being light. Unless they NARC all of you within 30 seconds, that NARC isn't doing anything. Tag gets around that, though.

[ExAstris]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Just remember, if there are 2 DDCs, you have to narc both. If the have a spider friend...good luck.

With that said, I am really enjoying the new NARC. If you want to really counter it, get 2 or 3 ECMs, one of which being light. Unless they NARC all of you within 30 seconds, that NARC isn't doing anything. Tag gets around that, though.

Which of course, keeps the ECM proliferation at maximum levels. The counters need to all be hard and utterly effective (i.e. BAP sees straight through the cloaking field at all ranges and cancels all of them inside 150m, while NARC and TAG both broadcast over it to everyone, and counter mode counters all enemy ECM in 180m, not just one), or ECM needs to be nerfed into the ground (preferably by removal of the cloaking field).

Until then, we just keep spinning the balance table to a new tilt instead of actually fixing the uneven legs.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Just remember, if there are 2 DDCs, you have to narc both. If the have a spider friend...good luck.

With that said, I am really enjoying the new NARC. If you want to really counter it, get 2 or 3 ECMs, one of which being light. Unless they NARC all of you within 30 seconds, that NARC isn't doing anything. Tag gets around that, though.

Yeah...saw a huge increase in Raven 3L's and the ECM spider last night. I started taking a TAG in addition to the NARC...and at this point might see me adding BAP, too...'cause if you're the "Narc Mech" why bother taking real weapons?

Frustratingly low damage...though it made life brighter for the LRM mechs on my team.

[Cimarb]

Ghost Badger, on 21 March 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Yeah...saw a huge increase in Raven 3L's and the ECM spider last night. I started taking a TAG in addition to the NARC...and at this point might see me adding BAP, too...'cause if you're the "Narc Mech" why bother taking real weapons?

Frustratingly low damage...though it made life brighter for the LRM mechs on my team.

This is actually a good thing for role warfare, though, as that is the point of scout mechs. They aren't meant to brawl and take down an Atlas by themselves - they are supposed to be scouting and relying on the support mechs (LRMs, primarily) to do the damage for them. Rewards for this type of play should be much higher, though, to make it worth doing so.

Edit: something that would REALLY help would be an assist function that lets you target a mech being spotted by a certain ally. Or even just signifying that a certain target is NARC'd or TAG'd by changing the targeting symbols to show it (basically the same as the empty/solid triangle, but maybe change it to a square if it is flagged as well)

Edited by Cimarb, 21 March 2014 - 06:39 AM.

[aniviron]

ExAstris, on 20 March 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Which of course, keeps the ECM proliferation at maximum levels. The counters need to all be hard and utterly effective (i.e. BAP sees straight through the cloaking field at all ranges and cancels all of them inside 150m, while NARC and TAG both broadcast over it to everyone, and counter mode counters all enemy ECM in 180m, not just one), or ECM needs to be nerfed into the ground (preferably by removal of the cloaking field).

Until then, we just keep spinning the balance table to a new tilt instead of actually fixing the uneven legs.

Cimarb, on 21 March 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

This is actually a good thing for role warfare, though, as that is the point of scout mechs. They aren't meant to brawl and take down an Atlas by themselves - they are supposed to be scouting and relying on the support mechs (LRMs, primarily) to do the damage for them. Rewards for this type of play should be much higher, though, to make it worth doing so.

Edit: something that would REALLY help would be an assist function that lets you target a mech being spotted by a certain ally. Or even just signifying that a certain target is NARC'd or TAG'd by changing the targeting symbols to show it (basically the same as the empty/solid triangle, but maybe change it to a square if it is flagged as well)

While I too have seen a truly massive resurgence in ECM over the last few days, I don't really feel like it encourages role warfare.



Nothing says "role warfare" quite like having seven D-DCs on one team, eh? (Yes, I am very aware that a single screenshot proves nothing; my point remains the same, that there is tons of ECM on the field again, and most of it is not light mechs, despite the fact that everything with ECM except the DDC is light (or a Cicada)).

I do agree with you that NARC needs better indicators though. It should be easy to instantly see who is NARCed; and for that matter, I'd also like to see what happens if you get an indicator that your own mech has been hit by a beacon.

[Deathlike]

I've seen a lot more ECM in force these days since this patch was implemented. It feels like early open beta, except the LRMS weren't hard to evade.

Had like 7 ECM on a team once... 3 D-DCs and like 4 3Ls or something like that. If anything, the current meta has encouraged ECM use a lot more (Steiner Scout lances are exceptionally popular in the current tourney).

[Utilyan]

Shot guy with narc, you see icon, he runs to ecm buddy, he can't be targeted.
I think if you get shot with a narc, you should be targetable regardless of cover, range, ecm.


There should be no line of sight calculation, no ecm calculation, Narc hits you then enemy knows exactly where you are.

The whole point I believe its a homing beacon. If you get shot with a narc it should be the worst case of "THERE he is" in the entire game.


You have your mech powered down with 10 ecm on him surrounded by the ecm stealth God, your invisible like the predator, and your mech is holding an magical umbrella of non-detectfulness and your inside a house that is inside of a cave at the bottom of the ocean.......You get hit by narc the enemy should know EXACTLY where you are.


Maybe add a "narc detected" to who ever gets hit. The panic and oh-shit factor would make things more fun.

[ExAstris]

Utilyan, on 23 March 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Shot guy with narc, you see icon, he runs to ecm buddy, he can't be targeted.

Again, ECM is the problem. Remove the stealth field and a half dozen problems get instantly fixed.

[Cimarb]

aniviron, on 22 March 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

While I too have seen a truly massive resurgence in ECM over the last few days, I don't really feel like it encourages role warfare.

(Broken image link)

Nothing says "role warfare" quite like having seven D-DCs on one team, eh? (Yes, I am very aware that a single screenshot proves nothing; my point remains the same, that there is tons of ECM on the field again, and most of it is not light mechs, despite the fact that everything with ECM except the DDC is light (or a Cicada)).

I do agree with you that NARC needs better indicators though. It should be easy to instantly see who is NARCed; and for that matter, I'd also like to see what happens if you get an indicator that your own mech has been hit by a beacon.

So, over this weekend, I finally saw someone USE narcs for once, and realized that there IS a notification on the target! It is a little "wireless" symbol at the top of the target box, right next to the solid/hollow triangle. If the enemy is TAG'd, instead, it is shown with a little mark as well, but I can't remember exactly what it looks like (maybe # or something close?). So, if you know where to look, it is very easy to find NARC'd enemies.

I do agree that NARC should work through multiple ECMs, but that may be a little too strong long term. Once people go back to their normal mechs in a week or two, instead of this heavy LRM use we currently have, people will also stop using as many ECM mechs, so things will level out and we will then be able to see what is really still needing fixed. Something else that should be fixed is NARC not working on shutdown mechs - THAT is broken, I think, as shutting the mech down shouldn't turn off the NARC attached to it.

[Enigmos]

This and the LRM buffs aren't merely good for the scout or the missile boat. It also provides argument for the medium chassis skirmisher. This role is needed to defend the missile boats and to a lesser extent the Assaults.

It is something that should be done but is seldom done.

Perhaps these changes will promote a perception of greater utility for the medium pilot.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 24 March 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[aniviron]

Cimarb, on 24 March 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

So, over this weekend, I finally saw someone USE narcs for once, and realized that there IS a notification on the target! It is a little "wireless" symbol at the top of the target box, right next to the solid/hollow triangle. If the enemy is TAG'd, instead, it is shown with a little mark as well, but I can't remember exactly what it looks like (maybe # or something close?). So, if you know where to look, it is very easy to find NARC'd enemies.

I do agree that NARC should work through multiple ECMs, but that may be a little too strong long term. Once people go back to their normal mechs in a week or two, instead of this heavy LRM use we currently have, people will also stop using as many ECM mechs, so things will level out and we will then be able to see what is really still needing fixed. Something else that should be fixed is NARC not working on shutdown mechs - THAT is broken, I think, as shutting the mech down shouldn't turn off the NARC attached to it.

I knew about the wireless icon for targets your team has NARCed (tag is a crosshair icon, I believe), but what I was more interested in is the victim getting some sort of heads-up about the NARC. TAG is a very visible laser, so generally you have some idea what's about to happen, or if the TAGger is good, you can at least find out as the LRMs keep fallin' on your head when you turn around and see the beam. With NARC though, I've seen a lot of people who die to NARC and are confused and upset since there should be no one left spotting them, and they're right- some kind of warning that you're NARCed, either a more visible rocket, an audio cue, or a HUD icon might help that.

[Cimarb]

aniviron, on 24 March 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I knew about the wireless icon for targets your team has NARCed (tag is a crosshair icon, I believe), but what I was more interested in is the victim getting some sort of heads-up about the NARC. TAG is a very visible laser, so generally you have some idea what's about to happen, or if the TAGger is good, you can at least find out as the LRMs keep fallin' on your head when you turn around and see the beam. With NARC though, I've seen a lot of people who die to NARC and are confused and upset since there should be no one left spotting them, and they're right- some kind of warning that you're NARCed, either a more visible rocket, an audio cue, or a HUD icon might help that.

Ah, gotcha. I totally agree with that. I'm pretty sure I got NARC'd at least once over the weekend, but I honestly have no clue if I was or just really dumb in my positioning.

[Roadkill]

I'm having a terrible time hitting with these new Narc beacons. Like my success rate - while firing at stationary targets - is about 25%.

In one game I paid very close attention to all 10 Narcs that I fired. Each one was fired at a stationary target at under 300 meters range (most under 100). After the game I checked my stats... only 1 hit.

I can think of only a couple of possible reasons.

1) Narc has a minimum range that isn't advertised. Probably 4-5 of the Narcs I fired in that game were from pretty close to point blank range - like sub-50 meters.

2) Either the Raven's Narc launcher (left arm) has a door, or the Narc launcher itself has a door that causes the missile to fire on a delay after you actually pull the trigger.

Anyone know if either of those things are true? I can't figure out why I'm having so much difficulty hitting with Narcs.

[Reno Blade]

Ah, sorry, need to include the new speed of 160 (only got 120 and 175m/s) to the chart. will update shortly
(so many posts about this topic...)
Now the correct ones.
You can see the new speed of 160m/s, the AMS can shot down 5.25 missiles at 240m.


The new speed here in orange shows the max of 6.25 seconds to reach 1000m.

[aniviron]

Roadkill, on 24 March 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I'm having a terrible time hitting with these new Narc beacons. Like my success rate - while firing at stationary targets - is about 25%.

In one game I paid very close attention to all 10 Narcs that I fired. Each one was fired at a stationary target at under 300 meters range (most under 100). After the game I checked my stats... only 1 hit.

I can think of only a couple of possible reasons.

1) Narc has a minimum range that isn't advertised. Probably 4-5 of the Narcs I fired in that game were from pretty close to point blank range - like sub-50 meters.

2) Either the Raven's Narc launcher (left arm) has a door, or the Narc launcher itself has a door that causes the missile to fire on a delay after you actually pull the trigger.

Anyone know if either of those things are true? I can't figure out why I'm having so much difficulty hitting with Narcs.

There are a number of people having this problem, I would estimate my NARC success rate on shots I felt were guarantees at ~50%. It seems likely that it is one of the following things: The beacon is obscured by more than 2 ECM mechs, so it's not transmitting; the beacon gets shot down on the way there by AMS; or the NARC beacons have the same hit registry problems that SRMs do.