633 replies to this topic

[Grits N Gravy]

MischiefSC, on 28 January 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Different per weight class.

Introduction of premade + pug Elo mixing high to low in the same match - result being that even at a mid-range Elo you may be on a team with a much higher Elo than your own, causing your Elo to swing dramatically early on. 3 or 4 games out of 10 or even 20 matches with a 50 point swing because of who you were dropped with. This makes the k-factor adjustment less reliable in smaller samples.

The law of large numbers and the central limit theorem tell us that as your Elo score, over time, will be normally distributed. With a sample size of 30, your Elo score distribution will converge in a normal fashion around the mean of those scores. The law of large numbers tells us all outside variables will effect out outcome equally over time thus the impact of outside variables normalizes at a sample size of 30. This is the power of the central limit theorem.


Where your correct is that your Elo doesn't become near exact, 99% confidence level 1% margin of error until much latter, 2396 games. But the score is a very accurate predictor of outcomes even at 30 games and is a very workable in system like MWO matchmaking.

[Roland]

Grits N Gravy, on 28 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Where your correct is that your Elo doesn't become near exact, 99% confidence level 1% margin of error until much latter, 2396 games. But the score is a very accurate predictor of outcomes even at 30 games and is a very workable in system like MWO matchmaking.

It's already been explained why this isn't actually true though, from a statistical point of view.
It's not a game with only one person per side, meaning that you do not determine the outcome of your game. Further, different teams will be constituted of widely varying capabilities, instead of a "fair" match as you see in a game such as chess or most other games where each team has the same basic equipment availible to them.

Couple that with the fact that your elo changes do not only affect the opponents you are matched against later (which Elo expects) but also affects the teammates you are matched WITH (which Elo does not account for at all) and you have a system for which there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will achieve anything approaching a meaningful rating after only 30 games.

Especially given that the same inaccuracy of YOUR Elo rating is also affecting everyone ELSE's Elo, which is resulting in the matchmaker having an even harder time, and resulting in your Elo changes have all kinds of weird unpredictably impacts on your future pairings. And again, this impact is not the normal expected impact from Elo where it merely affects your opponents, but where it also affects your own team.

Eventually, after an infinite number of games, all of the additional variables would effectively be boiled away and you'd have rating. But the complex interplay between you and your team from the perspective of shared but unpredictably uneven contribution to a victory means that it's almost certainly going to take a very long time for it to really make any sense of the outcomes.

[MischiefSC]

Grits N Gravy, on 28 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

The law of large numbers and the central limit theorem tell us that as your Elo score, over time, will be normally distributed. With a sample size of 30, your Elo score distribution will converge in a normal fashion around the mean of those scores. The law of large numbers tells us all outside variables will effect out outcome equally over time thus the impact of outside variables normalizes at a sample size of 30. This is the power of the central limit theorem.


Where your correct is that your Elo doesn't become near exact, 99% confidence level 1% margin of error until much latter, 2396 games. But the score is a very accurate predictor of outcomes even at 30 games and is a very workable in system like MWO matchmaking.

I'll take your word for it. I'm pretty medicated right now but if I were to try and plot the probability of accuracy for the current matchmaker I'd have to treat it like a Cartesian product - it is NOT random, but you've effectively got an Elo rating product set that you can use to make a product topology out of the Elo ratings of the hypothetical players involved not as an absolute score (you can't know the players score thus you can't accurately predict the actual score of the other players) but as relative variables.

See, the problem is the only predictive data we have on population distribution is from dec of 2012. We don't know what the current curve looks like - it may not even be a curve. Or, more to the point, I suspect it'll look like two curves. One peaking right behind 1300 and another peaking well over 2k. The byproduct of premade players in clusters of skilled groups is going to crate a self-perpetuating Elo expansion for those players. Due to a lack of actual density across all playtimes for high Elo they're going to get constantly thrown into lower Elo matches, skewing averages.

We know from the studies on Elo done that led to Glicko and even FIDE that outside of 1v1 you need a Gaussian distribution of player population because the initial learning curve is briefer while, conversely, outstripping average performance to push into exceptional levels requires correspondingly higher and higher performance.

That's where premades come in. It's not just about bumping your performance, it's about providing a consistent and continuous bump in performance. They will also inherently feed off each other since the artificial increase in Elo is carried by each member of the group. So 4 players who, playing together, skyrocket to an Elo of 2400. When they pug however they're carrying that inflated Elo score that they can not hope to support alone yet they provide that artificial inflation to their entire teams Elo score. This means that when other premade teams beat the team he's on the matchmaker sees his 2400 Elo score, bumps the team value accordingly and may even (incorrectly) predict that he should have helped his team win it when in actual relative performance he never had a chance. The other premade team gets a significant point bump.

I suspect I'm rambling here but do you get my point?

Postulate 1: A consistent participation in a premade team creates an exponential increase in performance, i.e. 'the sum is greater than the whole of its parts'. This effect is not just consistent but persistent. Their Elo is not individually statistically accurate and thus makes their participation in any match outside their premade an infection statistical errancy.

Hypothesis 1: As the increase in Elo generated by Postulate 1 affects all 4 members equally and persistently they create a consistent imbalance in Elo prediction and accurate assessment of K-factor. This means that when they are not together they ripple their statistical errancy out at a rate 4x greater than their accumulation of victories - together they win 1 match every time all 4 drop. Separated their error presents and skews both win/loss accuracy and k-factor on both teams in every match they play in.

So while I do acknowledge that Elo is the only reliable method of ranking players the current implementation makes me suspect that the variables per player over a set number of matches are not, in fact, strictly matched by central limit theorem and convergence to the normal. Every player is not dropping in pugs and the caliber and impact of dropping in a premade creates statistical errancy.

So, yeah. I'd go 200 matches. It's still going to scrub out in the wash but players CAN skew the variables in their team composition by ~30% of total.

[Nightfire]

Ok, this is going to have quite a few quotes in it and if I use the quote tags for all of them, the PGI forums will just give up and not render any of them.
So I'm going to use the quote tags to indicate the beginning of a new post and use quoted "italics" for the rest.

I'll start with this gem.

Abivard, on 28 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Like I said before, the poor sports hate being called poor sports, so they claim this is not a sport, but they haven't the slightest clue what sports is, or they wouldn't say that .

Athletic sports is not the only kind of sport.

For example, Chess is a sport.

First, you don't have to be playing a sport to display sportsmanlike behaviour. Your statements are a complete non sequitur and as such are completely wrong. You attempt to tie sportsmanship exclusively to sports when it isn't. You need not be playing a sport to subscribe to an ethical code of conduct. Your activity need not be called a sport to make it more than what it is.

Athletics is not the only kind of sport? While that statement is technically correct, I am assuming you mean it to mean that things can be a sport without physical exertion.
The definition of Sport (emphasis mine):

• Google: noun: 1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment
  
• Oxford: Noun: 1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment
  
• Cambridge: Noun: a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job

Top 3 reputable links that came back. Don't like it? Rage against the English Language and the definitions dictionaries give to certain words. Don't try and convince us that words mean something other than what they actually mean and then shame us for believing what they really do mean.

No, Chess is not a sport. It is a game. It may well have a professional body, be challenging and some people may even call it a sport, but it isn't one. It's a game!

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm not comparing video gamers to factory workers or soldiers. what is wrong with you? I'm comparing them to athletes and other sports or professional games.

I'll say right now, the "athletes and other sports or professional[s]" that you are referring to are vastly over valued by society. We pay professionally Athletes well over $5 Million a year and we pay those curing cancer less than $2k a year, if we want to look at the apexes. That seems right, doesn't it?

"You saying this game is less respectable then them, is blatent disrespect."

You can't disrespect a game! It's a game! A thing and a virtual one at that! It has no feelings to hurt or Id to praise! Again, I firmly believe you have no idea what respect is in this context if you are going to respect a thing!

"You are never going to be satisfied, and with a community of people who feel like you, the game will never have sportsmanship and will always be unpopular. NO matter what PGI does."

We shouldn't be satisfied with the current state of the game? Saying we should be is lunacy in my opinion. It has some good foundations but it has a long way to go before it reaches any long term viability.
As I have previously pointed out, Counter-strike has the worst cesspool of a community I have ever seen, most popular FPS EVER! You're not very good at making points based in fact are you?

"Sorry you didn't get the RPG you wanted,"

This is your throw away, condescending, dismissive line. This is you saying both "you are a nerd and as such unentitled to an opinion" and also "you are beneath me now stop bothering your betters". In the context you are using it, MWO could never be an RPG and you seem to have no idea what an RPG really is.

"but thats no reason to sync drop, use macros, nerf every meta build, and encrouage PGI to sabotage their own game with misguided and misdirected development that discourage fairplay and the spirit of competition, simply because you resent it."

People sync drop because they want to play with their friends, not because they want to pug stomp. By assigning this in the category of "encrouag[ing] PGI to sabotage their own game" you are attributing malice to actions where you cannot possibly know it exists. Every team game allows you to play with your friends. BF4 will not only attempt to put you in the same squad as anyone in your friends list when you join a server, if you group up it won't ever split you up once you are! PGI even stated, when the pre-made groups were limited to 4 mans, that it was a temporary measure. Playing with friends is not the diabolical sabotage you seem to attribute it to be.
Using macro's may be seen by some as unfair but in reality it is a symptom of poor game mechanics. People will find the most optimal way to play a game and then use it. This behaviour should be used to encourage people to play the game a certain way, not as something to inhibit. For the record, before you go off saying I use or endorse Macro's based on this statement, I don't use them.
Meta builds are a symptom of the same problem that Macro's are. You despise nerfing of meta builds but are against macros! They are both a symptom of poor game design and a failure to exploit competitive gaming psychology to elicit desired behavioural results.
No one here is against fair play as far as I know but I'll get into that when I address you libelling me again.

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Maybe your a good guy, but that fact you detest sports games on pc, have no sports sense or sense of sportsmanship, since you don' realize winning is not as important as damage and kills in a random team game, makes you suspect. The fact you don't think video games should be as respected as pro athletic sports is all I need to know. The fact you ran a tournament is only deplorable.

To be fair you know next to nothing about me. I'd like to think I'm a fair person but you actually can't know that one way or the other.

• Yes! I do detest Sports Games! You don't have to mention the PC, I just flat out don't like them!
  
• I play sports and love the ones I play. This statement is not only a flat out lie it is a lie in contradiction to what I have posted in this very thread.
  
• I have a sense of morality and fair play. To say I have no sense of sportsmanship is not only a flat out lie, a lie in contradiction to what I have posted in this very tread, it is libel!
  
• You obviously have not read anything I have had to say on the subject of Elo and my previous discussions with MischiefSC! My biggest problem with the current Elo implementation is that it is not based on metrics that are directly influenced by player performance! While we may disagree on how well the current implementation of MWO Elo performs, MischiefSC and I (I would like to think, correct me if I'm wrong here MischiefSC) have come to an understanding that the current implementation needs improvement to account for other metrics. So on this front this is another lie, though probably not a deliberate one!
  
• I don't think any THING should ever be respected in the context you place it. If you want to talk value, I actually think society should value athletes less since they are only entertainers! You, either accidently or deliberately, misrepresent my not wanting to raise professional gamers to the level of pro-athletes as valuing pro-athletes more. You are so very wrong. You also misrepresent my unwillingness to call MWO a sport as a devaluing of MWO rather than the understanding of the English Language as it is.

You need to abandon your splitting, not everyone who disagrees with you is against you.


"That documentary was showing about how even the people that run tournaments don't really respect the players or the game."
You have NO, 0 idea of what you speak here! Absolutely NONE! It is my opinion you have done nothing to help progress the state of professional gaming to a point people can make any sort of living off of it other than gripe on a forum! This is based on me putting up what I've done and challenging you, multiple times, to do the same and you have failed to do so! I've lived that documentary, I don't need you to post it and then tell me it showed something other than it did!

Most tournament organisers pay their prizes on the day! Just because the CPL is suspect as all hell doesn't give you the right to tar all of us because you think a documentary said so. I paid out every prize at the end of the night in a ceremony. Cash and prizes, not phoney cardboard cheques. You have no right or standing to portray me, my motives or my behaviour in such an ulterior fashion.

"Which is one main reason why e-sports never got enough support and popularity."

This demonstrates your total lack of understanding of what it takes to make something like gaming a popular entertainment medium to watch. E-Sports requires an audience, everything begins and ends with the audience! Sponsors don't donate anything for nothing, they expect advertising to an audience in return. Professional Gamers don't get paid in good wishes, they need cash that comes from sponsors (which are there for the audience) and the audience! Tournament holders don't like to pay for these tournaments out of their own pockets so they have to charge to cover costs, either Sponsors (who are there for the audience), the entrants (this doesn't raise much) or the Audience! Making gaming viable as a profession is not the community problem that you keep running back to, it is a marketing problem. This is about making the game accessible and exciting for an audience to watch and building that audience!

"Angel Munoz is like Intel saying the future is parallel processing and promising hardware based on it, but never coming through and actually undermining its development in the industry over money."

Your analogy is completely ambiguous and inappropriate. You imply a a cause and effect that isn't provable.

"Sort of like what sore loser posters or those who would rather play RPGs , or resent the fact this is an arcade arena shooter, or are upset MWO is not based on canon enough, do to this game!"

Ah! I think we have something here!
People who think the game hasn't developed enough in a direction you dislike, upset you!
You want the game the way you want it and other people who don't are "sore loser posters or those who would rather play RPGs"!
I get it! You want MWO your way and everyone else is wrong, despises the game, are poor sports, sync dropping meta gamers who's opinions will only lead PGI to wrack and ruin if PGI were to ever follow any of their ideas!
Got it! If we're not with you, we're against you! Am I right?

"That is what the people who run tournaments are like. Maybe you are the exception. But from your comments on this thread that go against any spirit of competition and sportsmanship, I have to assume your just part of the problem. Just the typical status quo."

Hmmm, let's look at this.

• "against any spirit of competition", I refute this and challenge you to back this up!
  
• "sportsmanship", I likewise refute this and ask you to back this up! Additionally, not wanting to call MWO a sport is not evidence of poor sportsmanship.
  
• "I have to assume your just part of the problem", You have yet to demonstrate that in any fashion. In fact where you have attempted to in completely contrary to the evidence of what I have done.

"Angel Munoz, might be a crook, but doesn't mean what he said isn't true, and they're are many people who feel the same way which is how hes able to make money in the first place."

Speaking generally here, not about Angel Munoz specifically . Just because a conman can find people to believe his hook and give him money doesn't make what he says to gain trust true! It just means he was able to say what someone wanted to hear enough to have them give him money. Just because the same conman can fleece many, many believers and have some still believe, doesn't make what he says any more true!

Speaking specifically, that the Professional Gaming industry requires a central governing body has been known to all of us in it since the mid 90's. Most of us, myself included, tried to make these bodies around certain games (Natural Selection and Counter-strike myself) but that is where we failed. Most games are too transient compared to the big sports. So the only logical step is from specific, transient games to Gaming in general. It's no secret and it's also why CPL is not the only one. Angel Munoz had no special insight, just the finances to found one in the first place.

"But when a game is disrespected by the people who are in charge or by players themselves, it will never gain respect from anybody else. That is the point of that documentary and my point to most of this community."

Counter-Strike seems to be a huge thorn in the side of your argument, doesn't it?

"How about the quote from the first quake pros saying "we were playing for frags". They didn't say we were playing to win. Winning just comes with the territory."

Then you have never played a game in an attempt to make a living off of it. You play the game then when you feel like quitting, you play some more! When you play enough that you're sick of the game, you play some more! It's not a game anymore, it's a job! You practice every single day, not to have some fun playing the game but to get better so you can win! Not winning, if you don't have a good sponsor, could mean not being able to afford to eat!

If you want MWO to be on the level of a professional sport, you will get people who will play to win at all costs because their livelihood depends on it! If you want to be a casual gamer and play the game for fun, go for it. It's how I play games these days. However, don't denigrate anyone who plays solely to win while in the same breath you are trying to promote playing just for the sake of the game.

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

i would call chess a professional competitive game, but not a pro sport, only because it requires no coordination.

But the minds on these geniuses of strategy in chess is amazing. Some Video game players are just as amazing imo, and theres no reason why it should not be just as respected.

They are all just games after all.

So now you draw the distinction between a game and a sport!? You say that Chess is not a sport, it is a game but we should respect it just the same!?
Hypocritical much?

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the first sports were the Olympics in Ancient Greece. And they also had board games back then like backgammon. Cards etc... but were not considered sports. Or that were not competitive like poker.

I guess maybe this is what Joseph was getting at, but They had more to do with actual traits that would help you on the battlefield in actual combat. But only because they were the first sports with nothing else to compare these abilities to.

Things like muscle memory, something required for MWO, but not for Chess.

They both require sportsmanship, because unlike War, they should be fair and balanced. But nothing in Chess is going to help with combat tactics I guess maybe this is what Joseph Malan was comparing. I actually haven't brought this up until now maybe because of his constant reference to soldiers. But most of us have evolved past thinking liike that a 1000 years ago. Since we now have other sports to compare to, instead of war.

Now most people just automatically assume, that hand eye coordination, muscle memory, reflexes, strength, dexterity, and endurance are part of what we call sports. Not necessarily war.

Intelligence = strategy, but is not considered tactics. Intelligence is also required in every sport, but coordination is not required in every game. Kind of ironic how the first e-sport on tv is a "strategy" game haha. But that is because tactics alone is boring and less challenging. And even LoL requires good coordination.

First off, "Strategy" games require strategies. There is nothing about their use of strategy that requires quotations.

So, you think the reflexes and muscle memory is enough physical exertion to allow MWO to be called a Sport but Chess can't be called a Sport because it doesn't have those factors?

Tactics have a small, immediate frame.
Strategies have longer term goals and may be comprised of multiple tactics combined to achieve that larger end.
Neither of these are directly tied to sports in that they can only be talked about in the context of sports.

Then you again draw the distinction between a game and a sport! Only your distinguishing factor is "coordination"!
You sir not only ignore the dictionary to make up your own definitions and then vilify anyone to uses a different one, you are a hypocrite. You do what you vilify others for doing, that is standing on a definition. The only difference is I use the dictionary and you use your own standards.

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

You come off as an RPG player that resents this game isn't true to canon, imo.

This is your throw away "you are not entitled to an opinion and I'm better than you so be quiet" line.
Get over yourself.

"More people should be buying 500 dollar gold mechs. PGI is doing a good job."

Your opinion, others disagree. I believe that thread is now 370 pages!

"This is the only FPS game with a matchmaker, and the only free FPS thats not P2W. They deserve more respect then most developers in the industry."

It has been openly admitted that not only did PGI not secure the license for an extended game, they ceased all effort into producing the critical but non-saleable aspects of the game until they did secure the extended licence to the MW IP! The theories of what that means are many but most are not good! At the bare minimum, there has been a massive failure to communicate with the consumer base here and that has resulted in a massive loss of trust and an increase of criticism! This is not underserved. The fact they they use almost any other channel of communication other than their own official forums to communicate with their players speaks volumes! Respect is earned and then kept! Once betrayed, you need to re-earn that respect not just expect that it should be there!

Now I have said three things in the past, let me recap.
MWO is not a sport, it is a game. This is the dictionary definition!
Pro-athletes are valued by society far too highly!
You shouldn't respect (in this context) things! You respect people! (ie: the other players)

"Saying the game is not as respectable as a pro athletic sport, means to you its worth less, and shouldn't be treated with respect. I don't know how you don't understand that."

Now how can you honestly not tell anyone that this is not a straw man? You have attributed to me something which sounds similar but means something vastly different and then proceed to tear this new statement down. Congratulations! You shredded that Straw-man! He won't bother you again!

I on the other hand am not the straw-man and I'm still waiting for you to address my points and retract your libel. Your time to retract your libel is running out.

"Your encouraging people to do those things whether you do or not with statements like those."

What? Think critically about the topic at hand, weigh all the opinions and evidence presented and come to their own opinion? An opinion that might differ from yours!?
<sarcasm> Sorry, I'll pass my work through the Ministry of Truth next time! </sarcasm>

"If your against sports then your against fair and balanced competitive matches. Try to grasp this."
I mean I'm not against sports but rather Sports Games that emulate Sports but I'm going to start with that assumption and devolve into the general. Not liking sports games that emulate sports does not mean I am against sports! Additionally, refusing to call MWO a sport because it fails to meet certain dictionary criteria is not being against sports. Even if we take the statement at its face value, it remains untrue that someone who is not a physical person and doesn't play sports cannot have a sense of fair play.
Try to grasp that this is not only a non-sequitur, it is an outright lie! So when you run out of opinions, you resort to fabrications of the truth. Good to know.

"I'm glad you play to win, but since you do, doesn't it really frustrate you how most of the players are against you trying to win? Because I play to win also and thats how I feel most of the time."

Welcome to competitive gaming! Other players don't want you to win because they want to win. If your win would cost them theirs then you can bet they will use any and all means to stop you! That doesn't make it unfair, just incredibly competitive!

Now, "I play to win also". What happened to ""we were playing for frags". They didn't say we were playing to win."
Pick a position and stick with it please. If you want to change your position then by all means do so but don't straddle the fence with a foot in each camp.

"IMO, a core problem of this game is PGI does not reward players for winning enough. Posters have claimed its because of cbill farmers. But i'm not sure I believe that. I think it has more to do with this community who wanted skirmish. Now they got their skirmish and i get shamed for capping even more then before now.
Why are players still playing any if they are going to get upset about me capping bases? It makes sense, one must just assume they are sore losers, or don't feel MWO should be played like that and its a form of sabatoge and resentment."

Some people are just not good sports. They exist in every community and you will never get rid of them. Develop some social skills and learn to cope. You do not have the right to not be offended.

"Many players want to always compare this game to war, which is ironic because thats how sports were born."

Many players want to compare this to war because the game is centred around a fictional war that raged for centuries and was so savage it set back entire civilisations centuries in technology. You may not like the story that goes along with the game but that same story is why MWO has the Atlas, Awesome, Jenner, Spider, Hunchback, etc. It is also why MWO has AC/5's, medium lasers, pulse lasers, PPC's, etc. If you want to divorce yourself from the story completely then there are many other generic robot shooting games. Problem is they are likely to come with some sort of story attached that also governs what can and cannot occur.

Just because some players like and want the lore that surrounds the game and that lore is based on a war doesn't mean it makes it a sport.

"Strategy may not be tactics/coordination, so not considered a sport, but strategy still makes a more entertaining game and includes more players and should be included in every sport."

Strategy and Tactics are not central to a sport (though it could be argued that it is central to being competitive in a sport) and are also not directly tied to coordination. Tactics are short term plans/actions to achieve a specific end, a strategy is a long term plan to achieve a specific end/goal. While you can use either of them in a sport, you don't have to and it's not required. The sport will still be a sport as long as it is "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment".

"EA should be giving a ton of money for winning , so more people will play to win and people who don't have the greatest aim can still have a sense of worth in conquest and assault. They should also add match score to the ELO equation instead of basing the ELO only off of something that nobody cares as much about."

EA is a business and doesn't give away money with no expectation of a return. I've been over how such sponsorship revolves around an audience. I've been over what a game needs to do to building an audience. EA doesn't and shouldn't give away anything that doesn't benefit them, they have stock holders to answer to. To think otherwise is the appropriation of another's wealth that they have earned. This is the cornerstone of socialism, taking and spending someone else's money.

However, I think you meant PGI rather than EA and I believe you meant C-Bills rather than money. See how using the right words to convey specific meanings is important?
Managing an economy is an incredibly sensitive task and should be handled with care. However, it is an incentive system and you are correct that PGI should be using the allocation of C-Bill rewards to elicit player behaviour. Ironically, this is the same root issue that macro's and meta builds spring from. Intelligent game design to elicit desired player behaviour.

"Especially since its a random team game, which anyone with common sports sense understands."

Yeah, your idea of "common sports sense" is something I think is common to you alone.
However, using the incentive system to elicit the desired cooperative behaviour from a team of random people is a core theory of game design.

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

I didn't say chess has no relation to war, I said strategy does not equal tactics. Its a shame i removed my original signature before you were educated on the difference between tactics and strategy. Dam it says up to 4 lines on sig, but it reall is only 2. "tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan, which may involve complex operational patterns, activity, and decision-making that lead to tactical execution."

What!? Now you can draw the distinction between the two!? Your ability for clear and cogent thought and the ability to draw fine distinctions seems to drift in and out based on what is more useful to you at the time. You know, distinctions between things like a sport, a game and an E-Sport? Your tendency to connect disparate ideas contained in different sentences through the use of a common/similar words is faulty thinking and evident in propaganda techniques.

"Chess does not have the physical attributes needed for fighting or combat, like hand eye coordination, reflexes and muscle memory."

Neither does MWO! Like strength and stamina! You know, physical exertion! Pot, meet Kettle!

"Every good sport has alot of strategy involved, but not every game requires those physical tactical attributes. And thats something the ancient Greeks understood."

Tactics need not be physical! Stop trying to connect concepts together that are not integrally tied! I suspect the Greek Philosophers understood a great deal more than you do!

So, now you have demonstrated Straw-manning, quote mining, shaming language, splitting, vilifying, projection, stereotyping, arrogance, false accusations, deceit, hypocrisy, libel and general and specific insults.

Your time to retract your libellous statements is running out before I take action.

[MustrumRidcully]

Is the definition of what is a sport and what isn't actually relevant to the discussion of Elo, or is this an unrelated definiton skirmish?

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Is the definition of what is a sport and what isn't actually relevant to the discussion of Elo, or is this an unrelated definiton skirmish?

I would say it is unrelated. Then again I already have enough ego to go around. Add to that the idea that I am somehow similar to an an athlete...

[Nightfire]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Is the definition of what is a sport and what isn't actually relevant to the discussion of Elo, or is this an unrelated definiton skirmish?

A reasonable question, I'll do my best to answer it.
RichAC's argument, as best as I can see he has a coherent argument, is that the community is so toxic that they support an Elo system so vastly broken because it suits their nefarious desires. That if the people who play MWO respected MWO as a sport, as he feels they should, people would not accept the current broken Elo system and sportsmanship would lead to people to simply play fairer because, well, it would be a sport!

The discussion has devolved because he get's hung up on certain concepts and even when you agree with his fundamental underlying principle but disagree with some of his precepts, he will rail against you as if you have committed the most grievous sin in the religion of RichAC's MWO!

He suffers from splitting in his posts and as such, I'll admit he crossed a line with me so I point out as much of his flawed thought and logic processes as much as possible.

EDIT: Oh I forgot! Anyone who likes MW Lore is in his opinion an RPG nerd! It's all there in his posts (and my responses).

Edited by Nightfire, 29 January 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 28 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

You come off as an RPG player that resents this game isn't true to canon, imo.

Then your opinion is in error.

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More people should be buying 500 dollar gold mechs. PGI is doing a good job.

Nobody should be buying $500 Skins. You are not paying $500 for the Mech... You can by that for around $30 (If I remember al a carte price). So is the skin worth $470?

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This is the only FPS game with a matchmaker, and the only free FPS thats not P2W. They deserve more respect then most developers in the industry.

But that does not put this game on par with professional sports. I give the DEVs the respect they earn. Sometimes, even the people we love & respect(especially them) deserves a kick in the ash when they are screwing up.

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Saying the game is not as respectable as a pro athletic sport, means to you its worth less, and shouldn't be treated with respect. I don't know how you don't understand that. Your encouraging people to do those things whether you do or not with statements like those.

Love how you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have been a part of this IP for 30 years. My daughter is a named character in the fiction(earned in a world wide competition), I am part of a Fan made Merc Unit that was canonized! My name is in the credits as a playtester (without having to pay for it) I was on the inside of this IP as a Gaming Rep, I have put (tens of..?.) thousands of dollars into it since 1986! If I didn't like it and respect it would I have done ANY of that? It does not mean that it has to be considered a sport to be enjoyed. I LOVE this IP. Its why I am here!

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If your against sports then your against fair and balanced competitive matches.

I am against placing some sort of greater value on athletic ability than that of the common man. on't think I am against sports because I realize that they are a form of entertainment.

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Try to grasp this.


I'm glad you play to win, but since you do, doesn't it really frustrate you how most of the players are against you trying to win? Because I play to win also and thats how I feel most of the time.

If I am reading this correctly, I expect my opponents to be against my trying to win. It should be their objective to make me lose! Also, I was raised not to be to concerned with what others think. They are not living my life nor am I living theirs. They are entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to give mine. My laughing at your premise that this game should be treated like a sport was inappropriate. BUT it was what I was feeling due to I have played in this IP for well on 30 years, I have considered myself a fair hand at it an would put my skills up against anyone from Jordan Weisman to you. But I don't think of myself as being comparable to an Athlete!

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IMO, a core problem of this game is PGI does not reward players for winning enough. Posters have claimed its because of cbill farmers. But i'm not sure I believe that. I think it has more to do with this community who wanted skirmish. Now they got their skirmish and i get shamed for capping even more then before now.

I have seen worse payouts. As a NeverWinter player I was a 10th lvl character, with 90 Gold to my name. And I only bought healing potions! I am a 3rd Lvl character in 13th age with 30GP in the bank and 900GP invested in repairing a Keep!

Keep Capping. It is the 1st and thus Primary victory condition. I will continue to try to kill you for trying to take my stuff, but that is the guts of this game. You cannot have universal conquest if you aren't taking something from someone else. And there is more than one way to take stuff!

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Why are players still playing any if they are going to get upset about me capping bases? It makes sense, one must just assume they are sore losers, or don't feel MWO should be played like that and its a form of sabatoge and resentment.

Lots of gamers think there is only one way to play a game. Sirlin calls them Scrubs.

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Many players want to always compare this game to war, which is ironic because thats how sports were born. Strategy may not be tactics/coordination, so not considered a sport, but strategy still makes a more entertaining game and includes more players and should be included in every sport.

The objective of a Sport is no killing your enemy or taking his stuff from him. This game is a game of conquest (or it is supposed to be if we ever get to play the game). I am fighting or the Lyran Commonwealth against forces of the Clans who are intent on concurring known space. That sounds like war to me? We are playing a game based around Futuristic warfare. a Mech, or BattleMech are piloted by MechWarriors, it is a war based game where armies face off against each other!

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EA should be giving a ton of money for winning , so more people will play to win and people who don't have the greatest aim can still have a sense of worth in conquest and assault. They should also add match score to the ELO equation instead of basing the ELO only off of something that nobody cares as much about.

I am here to play the Clan Invasion you sound like you want to be a Solaris 7 Arena star. We have very different goals.

Especially since its a random team game, which anyone with common sports sense understands. But I at least picked a side to play for... Unless you are a Clanner.

So in short. I have enjoyed playing this IP for 30 years all without ever once confusing it with a sport. I can play the game with integrity and good sportsmanship cause I was taught those qualities playing games and participating in sports. I will not blur the line between games and sports.

Also I grew up during a time that Chess was a nerds game and no Athlete would ever give a Chess team member respect. I am more open minded than that, but chess is a competitive game. Poker is a game that does involve a bunch of Luck and thus not a sport. At. All. Just because something can be played competitively does not mean it should be called a sport. And there is nothing wrong with thinking that way!

I love this game. But that is all that it is... a game.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 January 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[RichAC]

Then your opinion is in error.

Well you sound like an RPG player to me...lol

Nobody should be buying $500 Skins. You are not paying $500 for the Mech... You can by that for around $30 (If I remember al a carte price). So is the skin worth $470?

Why not? To some people thats the same as 5 bucks. IF it means PGI can possibly get better serves, and hire more programmers whats the problem?

But that does not put this game on par with professional sports. I give the DEVs the respect they earn. Sometimes, even the people we love & respect(especially them) deserves a kick in the ash when they are screwing up.

Again, what your implying here is that you don't respect them. They aren't as worthy as pro sports because the devs haven't earned it? What PC game has according to you? Probably none....

So you are kicking them in the ******* out of love? I have a problem with them not giving enough rewards for winning. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna talk people out of giving them money, when they don't have enough of a community to make any..... or trash the game on the forums like a bitter loser. I blame the community for that problem not PGI.

Love how you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have been a part of this IP for 30 years. My daughter is a named character in the fiction(earned in a world wide competition), I am part of a Fan made Merc Unit that was canonized! My name is in the credits as a playtester (without having to pay for it) I was on the inside of this IP as a Gaming Rep, I have put (tens of..?.) thousands of dollars into it since 1986! If I didn't like it and respect it would I have done ANY of that? It does not mean that it has to be considered a sport to be enjoyed. I LOVE this IP. Its why I am here!

False sense of entitlement. The game, and genre, is unpopular and dying. We probably have people like you to thank for that.


I am against placing some sort of greater value on athletic ability than that of the common man. on't think I am against sports because I realize that they are a form of entertainment.

But yet you place greater value on sports, then the "IP you have been a part of for 30 years" Shame on you.



If I am reading this correctly, I expect my opponents to be against my trying to win. It should be their objective to make me lose! Also, I was raised not to be to concerned with what others think. They are not living my life nor am I living theirs. They are entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to give mine. My laughing at your premise that this game should be treated like a sport was inappropriate. BUT it was what I was feeling due to I have played in this IP for well on 30 years, I have considered myself a fair hand at it an would put my skills up against anyone from Jordan Weisman to you. But I don't think of myself as being comparable to an Athlete!

You must be playing dumb here. I'm talking about teamates obviously. And again, false sense of entitlement. The only people's opinions that are worth anything, is those that respect video games like they would any sport. What you are also not understanding, is that even in a game like MWO, the skill gap to the top players would be huge. literally like you playing basketball against Jordan.

I have seen worse payouts. As a NeverWinter player I was a 10th lvl character, with 90 Gold to my name. And I only bought healing potions! I am a 3rd Lvl character in 13th age with 30GP in the bank and 900GP invested in repairing a Keep!

What does that have to do with rewarding people for match wins Mr RPG?

Keep Capping. It is the 1st and thus Primary victory condition. I will continue to try to kill you for trying to take my stuff, but that is the guts of this game. You cannot have universal conquest if you aren't taking something from someone else. And there is more than one way to take stuff!

Yes capping should be primary.....have no idea what else you mean.

The objective of a Sport is no killing your enemy or taking his stuff from him. This game is a game of conquest (or it is supposed to be if we ever get to play the game). I am fighting or the Lyran Commonwealth against forces of the Clans who are intent on concurring known space. That sounds like war to me? We are playing a game based around Futuristic warfare. a Mech, or BattleMech are piloted by MechWarriors, it is a war based game where armies face off against each other!

Not necessarily, and sounds like an RPG to me. Sorry bud, but your confirming what you want the game to be, and what it isn't. And the reason for that is, that rpg games cost too much to make, and there is not enough of a playerbase on pc's to begin with anymore, let alone this genre.

I am here to play the Clan Invasion you sound like you want to be a Solaris 7 Arena star. We have very different goals.

True, and which is what you keep trying to deny. I'm here to play an arena shooter, your here to play an RPG. You resent this fact and are undermining the game.

Especially since its a random team game, which anyone with common sports sense understands. But I at least picked a side to play for... Unless you are a Clanner.

...

So in short. I have enjoyed playing this IP for 30 years all without ever once confusing it with a sport. I can play the game with integrity and good sportsmanship cause I was taught those qualities playing games and participating in sports. I will not blur the line between games and sports.

SO in short, you have some false sense of entitlement, and your mostly an rpg player thats mad mechwarrior is not an rpg.

IN short, Stop talking people out of giving PGI money, stop encouraging development that undermines and discourages fair competitive play.. All these people spamming forums about how they shouldn't give PGI money cause they are selling 500 dollar skins, when this game has a such a low population they must be struggling. When CW is a game mode most of you aren't gonna play anyways just like you don't play 12 man as it is.....is because of selfish sore losers and bitter rpg players period. Or people who just want something to complain about.



Also I grew up during a time that Chess was a nerds game and no Athlete would ever give a Chess team member respect. I am more open minded than that, but chess is a competitive game. Poker is a game that does involve a bunch of Luck and thus not a sport. At. All. Just because something can be played competitively does not mean it should be called a sport. And there is nothing wrong with thinking that way!

Well that explains your lack of respect. poor upbringing. Poker is not a sport, because it requires no coordination. But its still a game that requires sportsmanship, where good strategy and human intuition is still a factor. Throwing {Scrap} on a wall can be considered a sport and played competitively.

I love this game. But that is all that it is... a game.
Its a game that puts food in some families mouths. Chess is just a game, So are pro sports, but they are a billion dollar industry that provides countless jobs, even in many other industries, and saves countless lives.

Edited by RichAC, 29 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

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Again, what your implying here you don't respect them. They aren't as worthy as pro sports because they devs haven't earned it? What PC game has according to you? Probably none....

You are welcome to assume I don't respect them since you seem to be trying to read my mind. I have loved many a video game/ and PC game over 30+ years. I never have compared them to a sport to do so either.

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[color=#959595]So you are kicking them in the ******* out of love? I have a problem with them not giving enough rewards for winning. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna talk people out of giving them money, when they don't have enough of a community to make any..... or trash the game on the forums like a bitter loser. I blame the community for that problem not PGI.[/color]

Hel Yes. I am a Firm believer in tough love when its called for. I do not try to talk anyone out of spending money on the game, but I will speak my mind when I think they want to much. Just like I did with Beanie Babies. Shoulda seen the shocked looks I got when I took off the tags em and gave my daughter her new toys!

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[color=#959595]SO in short, you have some false sense of entitlement, and your mostly an rpg player thats mad mechwarrior is not an rpg.[/color]

How is seeing a game for what it is? A form of entertainment some how entitlement? MechWarrior is no more/less a RPG than TT ever was. In fact I never did play the RPG from the BattleTech Universe... what was that called again back in 1986... Oh yeah MechWarrior. Video game came out in...1989! So this Game was named after an RPG from the BattleTech system.

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[color=#959595]Stop talking people out of giving PGI money, stop encouraging development that undermines fair competitive play.. All these people spamming forums about how they shouldn't give PGI money cause they are selling 500 dollar skins, when this game has a such a low population they must be struggling. When CW is a game mode most of you aren't gonna play anyways just like you don't play 12 man as it is.....is because of selfish sore losers and bitter rpg players period.[/color]

Please sir, quote where I have supported unfair game play? Quote Where I have told people not to spend money? I have said it's silly to spend $500 or a golden Fleece, Cause I would never do it. I would hope once we have CW, the Law will be back to play the Game MW:O said it would be. A day:day recreation of the Clan Invasion!

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[color=#959595]Well that explains your lack of respect. poor upbringing.[/color]

Is All I have to say about that response.

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[color=#959595]Poker is not a sport, because it requires no coordination. But its still a game that requires sportsmanship, where good strategy and human intuition is still a factor.[/color]]

And good sportsmanship is also a good thing to have when playing MB Sorry! You will never find a post where I support poor sportsmanship. Crying cause you lost a game is just bad! Quitting cause you don't like a map, or the teams composition... Makes you a poor player. I don't have to be a sports star or an athlete to have integrity! You know integrity Like MLB stars, Lance Armstrong, Bob Probert! Cheating is abound in the Sports world!

So I will save my accolades and respect for people who deserve it. Like this Rock Star of respectability!

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

You are welcome to assume I don't respect them since you seem to be trying to read my mind. I have loved many a video game/ and PC game over 30+ years. I never have compared them to a sport to do so either.

When you say they don't deserve the same respect as athletic sports, I don't have to read your mind.

Just to keep this post on topic, can you still imagine athletic scouts and pro managers using an ELO based on nothing but w/l to determine an individual players rating?

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Hel Yes. I am a Firm believer in tough love when its called for. I do not try to talk anyone out of spending money on the game, but I will speak my mind when I think they want to much. Just like I did with Beanie Babies. Shoulda seen the shocked looks I got when I took off the tags em and gave my daughter her new toys!

How bout Don't buy it? To try and convince others not to buy it, when noone has to and when it could actually help the game, is pretty selfish.

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How is seeing a game for what it is? A form of entertainment some how entitlement? MechWarrior is no more/less a RPG than TT ever was. In fact I never did play the RPG from the BattleTech Universe... what was that called again back in 1986... Oh yeah MechWarrior. Video game came out in...1989! So this Game was named after an RPG from the BattleTech system.

Same can be said about any sport. Yes we already know your an RPG players.

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Please sir, quote where I have supported unfair game play? Quote Where I have told people not to spend money? I have said it's silly to spend $500 or a golden Fleece, Cause I would never do it. I would hope once we have CW, the Law will be back to play the Game MW:O said it would be. A day:day recreation of the Clan Invasion!

There have been many threads with these things going on. You just said you don't think a 500 dollar mech is worth it. WHy post about that and not keep it to yourself?

Its only not worth it because either A, you can't afford it, or B you don't think the game deserves it. If its B why don't you think the game deserves to make any more money? Consider it a donation, whats the issue? Are you one of these guys claiming they don't deserve more money till they release CW like they promised when noone even plays 12 mans as it is? lol

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And good sportsmanship is also a good thing to have when playing MB Sorry! You will never find a post where I support poor sportsmanship. Crying cause you lost a game is just bad! Quitting cause you don't like a map, or the teams composition... Makes you a poor player. I don't have to be a sports star or an athlete to have integrity! You know integrity Like MLB stars, Lance Armstrong, Bob Probert! Cheating is abound in the Sports world!

Right because those guys are more respectable then Fatal1ty to you. Because atheletic sports is more respectable then video games to you for some reason... Yet you've been "involved in this IP for 30 years" ... Shame on you! It really does explain though why this genre and game are not popular.

And what is that about cheating? I hope your not making excuses for cheating now lol. But the ratio of honest players to cheaters is why some sports are not that popular. Theres a big difference between strategy game communities like LoL and SC2 compared to FPS communities. I'm not even gonna go there.

All I know is sync dropping really ruins this game, and these same players will not be happy when they realize CW will be not much different for them, and they won't be able to farm cbills in private matches...

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So I will save my accolades and respect for people who deserve it. Like this Rock Star of respectability!

When you keep comparing MWO to other things that are not even sports or games, its because you have no real argument. Just stop already. This game is no less respectable then chess or football. Why do you feel the need to troll me about this? (rhetorical question)

Edited by RichAC, 29 January 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[Nightfire]

I note you will no longer respond to my posts that are directed to you.

RichAC, on 29 January 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Well you sound like an RPG player to me...lol

That's because he disagrees with you. Your standard response to anyone disagreeing with you is some sort of throw away comment about being an "RPG Player" or wanting an "RPG game" designed to dismiss and silence the poster.

I find it amusing that you seem to have no concept of what an RPG is. There is and will be no character sheet in MWO. My pilot doesn't have likes, dislikes or personality quirks. What you are saying is not in line with the reality and leads me to believe that you not only don't know what role-playing is, it is something you associate as being bad, lesser and as such valid to use as a slur.

"Why not? To some people thats the same as 5 bucks. IF it means PGI can possibly get better serves, and hire more programmers whats the problem?"

Some people not only see it as poor value for money, since entire new games cost far less and the price of those skins is not seen as reflective of the cost of developing them. It is also seen by some as a cash grab since the only things that have had any active development (by PGI's own admission) until recently are those things that were directly saleable at the direct expense of those core, promised features that while not directly saleable contribute to the long term viability of the game. Community Warfare being the main example.

You don't reward poor treatment of your customers and failure to deliver on promised features by purchasing premium items. You may disagree that you have been poorly treated but then for you the game is complete, you don't want community warfare. Only RPG players want something more to fight over than the current match.

"Again, what your implying here is that you don't respect them. They aren't as worthy as pro sports because the devs haven't earned it? What PC game has according to you? Probably none.... "

Please, pick a point and make it! Stop blurring the lines and running around in the grey areas!
The developers aren't as worthy as pro-sports because they haven't earned it? You want to compare one team of developers, who have demonstrably taken actions that have caused a huge loss of trust in the consumer and fan base, with the entirety of the pro-sport entertainment industry!?

Do you really not see the problem with this false comparison? Do you also not see the fallacy of the false conclusion that (both Joseph and myself have made) not wanting to elevate pro-gamers to pro-sports value levels because we think pro-sport athletes are overvalued as is and (pro-athletes) should be devalued by society more, is somehow indicative of us valuing pro-athletes more? This is a core component of your argument here, I'm trying to point out to you how it is a fallacy and a straw-man.

"So you are kicking them in the ******* out of love? I have a problem with them not giving enough rewards for winning. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna talk people out of giving them money, when they don't have enough of a community to make any..... or trash the game on the forums like a bitter loser. I blame the community for that problem not PGI."

You know what, if people do shoddy work then I don't pay them! If PGI can't keep the core of the game moving forward then they are going to lose business. As for "or trash the game on the forums like a bitter loser", I will warn everyone who is considering spending money on PGI products on exactly what they are getting, exactly what they are not getting and PGI's past performance on delivering on promised content and community relations. If they go under for that, while you can blame me all you like, it would be PGI's fault not mine. I would be able to sleep comfortably at night. The choices people make and the actions they take have consequences. Just because you don't like a possible consequence that could visit itself upon PGI as a result of their choices doesn't mean you get to lay them at the feet of others.

"False sense of entitlement. The game, and genre, is unpopular and dying. We probably have people like you to thank for that."

Oh! A new one! False sense of entitlement! Awesome! Are you going to tell him to check his privilege next?
The game is unpopular because it has stagnated (deliberately, PGI's own admission), is repetitive, lacks any larger meta-game and thanks to the failures to deliver and breaches of trust on the part of PGI, the consumer base is increasingly unable to see these things being delivered.

The genre is FAR from dying. There are many mech games out there and coming out. Or are you talking about the franchise of Mechwarrior itself? The one that raised how many millions in the Founders program? Again, your perception of dying is significantly different from mine!

"But yet you place greater value on sports, then the "IP you have been a part of for 30 years" Shame on you."

At which point does he do this? Come on! A claim such as this requires citation! Again you fall back on the fallacy of the false conclusion that not wanting to elevate pro-gamers to pro-sports value levels because we think pro-sport athletes are overvalued as is and (pro-athletes) should be devalued by society more, is somehow indicative of us valuing pro-athletes more?

"You must be playing dumb here. I'm talking about teamates obviously. And again, false sense of entitlement. The only people's opinions that are worth anything, is those that respect video games like they would any sport. What you are also not understanding, is that even in a game like MWO, the skill gap to the top players would be huge. literally like you playing basketball against Jordan."

Playing dumb? Guess I'm dumb also because I read it the same way! Either that or, just possibly, you may have not expressed yourself clearly? blah blah ... "check your privilege" ...

Now this line:
"The only people's opinions that are worth anything, is those that respect video games like they would any sport."
Let me translate what I read in this line:
"I am right! If you agree with me, you are also right but only if you agree with everything I have said. If not, then you are wrong! If you are wrong, shut up and go away because you are not entitled to an opinion, you are beneath me! I am not open to any sort of discussion and I will not consider at any point I could be wrong, about anything!"

"What does that have to do with rewarding people for match wins Mr RPG?"

Well if you had read it you would have seen he is talking about the reward incentive and how different games implement it to elicit desired behviour. He did use RPG games to illustrate this though and as such you dismissed it out of hand. You know, they're RPGs and as such lesser in your mind. Ignore the fact that he was kind of supporting your point, they were dirty RPGs!

"Yes capping should be primary.....have no idea what else you mean."

Again, you have no idea how to accept someone agreeing with a portion of your position. It's either all or nothing! You really are bad at this!

"Not necessarily, and sounds like an RPG to me. Sorry bud, but your confirming what you want the game to be, and what it isn't. And the reason for that is, that rpg games cost too much to make, and there is not enough of a playerbase on pc's to begin with anymore, let alone this genre."

Huh? The fact that there is a story universe surrounding this game is something you want to ignore? These mech names and designs are works of pure imagination on the part of PGI's modellers? If there is any aspect of Lore, you call it an RPG? I think you should give up games! Any game that has any complexity beyond checkers or chess has some story to it regardless of whether you choose to ignore it or not. (I'll get to the " Sorry bud, but your confirming what you want the game to be, and what it isn't." after the next quote)

"[Joseph Mallan] I am here to play the Clan Invasion you sound like you want to be a Solaris 7 Arena star. We have very different goals.
[RichAC] True, and which is what you keep trying to deny. I'm here to play an arena shooter, your here to play an RPG. You resent this fact and are undermining the game."

Let me couple this with " Sorry bud, but your confirming what you want the game to be, and what it isn't.".

Sorry bud but what you see is drenched in Battletech lore whether you acknowledge it or not. What you play is the base mechanics, what was needed to be developed before work on the larger game could commence. The larger game, Community Warfare, was always the initial goal. What it sounds like to me is you can't stand to see the larger game commence and you want to rage against the dying light of what you perceive to be the epitome of your game, arena combat. You resent this fact and are attempting to undermine any further progress of the larger game.

Community Warfare won't be an RPG. As I keep explaining, you have no idea what an RPG is!

"SO in short, you have some false sense of entitlement, and your mostly an rpg player thats mad mechwarrior is not an rpg."

So in short, you have some false sense of entitlement that this game should remain forever what you want it to be and project that false sense of entitlement onto anyone who disagrees with you! You have no idea what an RPG is but throw it around as a slur and you're mostly an unsophisticated player that's mad MWO will gain a larger meta-game. You also have problem with basic grammar. (seriously, please check your posts before posting for basic problems like your/you're and there/their/they're. It makes your posts annoying to read!)

"IN short, Stop talking people out of giving PGI money"

Ah, no! Not until PGI earns my trust back and starts delivering on some core features that we've been waiting on for over 2 years and were promised long before now!

"stop encouraging development that undermines and discourages fair competitive play.."

• Community Warfare does not "undermine and discourage fair competitive play".
  
• Dropping in groups larger than 4 players does not "undermine and discourage fair competitive play".

You need to get out more.



"All these people spamming forums about how they shouldn't give PGI money cause they are selling 500 dollar skins, when this game has a such a low population they must be struggling."

That is a consequence of PGI's own choices, don't lay the consequences of that on the players that feel justified outrage. Anger, whether you agree or not, is at times an appropriate response. Warning people of what they are exactly getting into is not cheating PGI. You don't get to put those factors onto the forum posters because the developers are currently in your good books and the forum posters currently disagree with you. Welcome to capitalism!

"When CW is a game mode most of you aren't gonna play anyways just like you don't play 12 man as it is.....is because of selfish sore losers and bitter rpg players period. Or people who just want something to complain about."

Awwww. Sorry (not really) but this is just you raging, projecting and insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

• 12 mans aren't popular because it's hard to get 12 people on at the same time to form a group! Add to that the fact you need at least two of these groups in the queue and then you start to see the difficulty. If just one person has to go ... the whole thing is shot!
  
• Here's something interesting for you! 12 mans are so hard to get together because groups can't drop in the public queue in sizes larger than 4! That means that if you have 11 people, you can't easily keep them all together! It has nothing to do with pug stomping and unsportsmanlike behaviour and everything to do with wanting to play with friends and human nature.
  
• Finally, and this is where I get my perverse kick by pointing this out to RichAC, Community Warfare is slated so you can drop with large groups that are less than 12 men. So you can drop with a 10 man and have 2 Lone Wolves fill in the missing 2! You know, lone wolves, aka pubs!

"Well that explains your lack of respect. poor upbringing. Poker is not a sport, because it requires no coordination. But its still a game that requires sportsmanship, where good strategy and human intuition is still a factor. Throwing {Scrap} on a wall can be considered a sport and played competitively."



Seriously! You get poor upbringing out of Joseph's response!? I get poor education out of yours! Let me see if I can get this through to you ...

• Adherence to a dictionary definition does not equal poor upbringing! You draw the distinction between a Game and a Sport so you KNOW there is one! The difference is you cling to your personal, made up definition and then label and libel anyone who disagrees as having no respect!
  
• MWO may require more physical attributes than Chess but not to the extent it defines it as a sport! Strength? Endurance? A sport does require these things! That "Physical Exertion" portion of the dictionary definition is a pesky thing, isn't it?
  
• "Its a game that puts food in some families mouths. Chess is just a game, So are pro sports, but they are a billion dollar industry that provides countless jobs, even in many other industries, and saves countless lives." So does mining but I call that a primary industry, not a sport! You don't get to use emotive arguments to side step your opponent's point.
  
• "Throwing {Scrap} on a wall can be considered a sport and played competitively." Ah, no! It may be played competitivily but it wouldn't be a sport. Again, that "Physical Exhertion" thing keeps coming back to poke holes in your argument.

I know why you hold onto this argument though, if you can maintain this argument you can continue to call dissenters as "disrespectful to MWO". It is your license to throw slurs at those that disagree. The problem is that you have already demonstrated the ability to distinguish the difference between a game and a sport so the only issue of discrepancy now is that you willfully will not accept the dictionary definition.



In short, refute reality and substitute your own! Then insult any who point out you're in you're own world!

RichAC, on 29 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

When you say they don't deserve the same respect as athletic sports, I don't have to read your mind.

Again, Joseph never said that. You imagined he said it because he refuses to call MWO a Sport! It's your mental shinannigans at work here. You have to get over your failing to accept the dictionary definition as equating to others saying gaming is an inferior occupation. It is intellectually dishonest and verging now on morally bankrupt.

"Just to keep this post on topic, can you still imagine athletic scouts and pro managers using an ELO based on nothing but w/l to determine an individual players rating?"

At no point has anyone (that I can see) in this thread suggested that this be the case. Again, you have a problem with people agreeing with only part of your position. All or nothing is what dictators and BPD suffers think.

"How bout Don't buy it? To try and convince others not to buy it, when noone has to and when it could actually help the game, is pretty selfish."

To try and inform others of exactly what they are purchasing and supporting is not selfish. You only perceive it selfish because you want other people to spend money to support your ends. I call you selfish for insisting buyers remain uninformed about their purchasing options.

"Same can be said about any sport. Yes we already know your an RPG players."

Any sport? I'll go further and say every sport is a form of entertainment and we should see it as such! Nothing more! blah, blah ... slur, bad grammar, "Check your privilege"

"There have been many threads with these things going on. You just said you don't think a 500 dollar mech is worth it. WHy post about that and not keep it to yourself?"

Because people have a right to express their opinions and other people have a right to decide how they spend their money?

• If I talk to a person who was going to purchase a $500 Gold mech and I talked them out of it, where is the transgression?
  
• Is it mine for pointing out issues that resonate in the person I talk to
  
• or theirs because they should not be permitted to re-evaluate their decision and change their mind?
  
• What if they were later thankful to me for helping them dodge a bad decision, am I still a bad person?
  
• Or is the only thing that matters is if PGI get cash to support MWO but only if they keep it in the current state you like?

Finally, the clan deals were actually altered based on the negative feedback. Negative feedback doesn't have to always be feared. Sometimes we make mistakes, even PGI in judging the market. Feedback is a tool to help us learn and adjust. Perhaps you should consider this concept?


"Its only not worth it because either A, you can't afford it, or B you don't think the game deserves it. If its B why don't you think the game deserves to make any more money? Consider it a donation, whats the issue? Are you one of these guys claiming they don't deserve more money till they release CW like they promised when noone even plays 12 mans as it is? lol"

• How about I've already made my significant "donations" in hopes of financing the promises made over two years ago! Yes I am one of the later!
  
• I've already pointed out why no one plays 12 mans. Group sizes were crippled and as such, team play crippled. Since that happened, the exodus occurred. That's like limiting the number of people to 4 people per train car and claiming no one takes the train anymore! It is a false equivalence, especially since CW is stated to be like group dropping used to be. Large groups with lone wolves filling in the missing numbers.
  
• Finally, Joseph's challenge was to show him where he has supported unfair game play not to redirect this into an unrelated topic of discussion. You have a history of making claims and then being unable to demonstrate them!

"Right because those guys are more respectable then Fatal1ty to you. Because atheletic sports is more respectable then video games to you for some reason... Yet you've been "involved in this IP for 30 years" ... Shame on you! It really does explain though why this genre and game are not popular.



And what is that about cheating? I hope your not making excuses for cheating now lol. But the ratio of honest players to cheaters is why some sports are not that popular. Theres a big difference between strategy game communities like LoL and SC2 compared to FPS communities. I'm not even gonna go there."

How ... how does this even connect to what Joseph said!? He basically said that:

• Unsportsmanlike behaviour is a bad thing
  
• Sportsmanship is a code of behaviour and you don't need to play in sports to subscribe to such a code
  
• Even in Sports, the gold standard you hold MWO to aspire to, cheating abounds and as such is not something bound to and holding back the gaming world, which is a point you have previously made!

So in directly addressing your points:

• you chose to compare the people Joseph held up as BAD examples with Fatal1ty (who has a mixed reputation in the pro-gaming circuit) to (again) state how bad they were (which was the entire point)
  
• make this false equivalence (again) between not calling MWO a sport and respect so you can shame him for something he hasn't done (we call this Straw-manning)
  
• in pointing out the prevalence of cheating in your gold standard (sports) you imply an accusation of him of defending cheating (cheat-apologist perhaps?)

All of this is low, and utterly poor form. Attack the arguments, not the person!



"All I know is sync dropping really ruins this game, and these same players will not be happy when they realize CW will be not much different for them, and they won't be able to farm cbills in private matches..."

This final point here is the most telling.

• You blame the evil pre-made for all your woes! Those that sync drop are not doing so that they might regain the ability to play with more than 4 friends, an ability that they once had and were promised would be returned to them. No! They are C-Bill farming! They are Pug-Stomping! They are the unsportsmanlike demons in this piece. Heaven forbid people ever be social and want to play with each other! You are simply against any form of organised play!
  
• This tactic, by the way, is known as demonization (or othering) and is done to remove the perception of humanity of the opposing group such that inhuman tactics can be used against them without inflicting guilt or remorse upon the attacker. It is the transformation of your group of undesirables into "the others". It is part of what is known as creating a threat narrative. It is a nefarious tactic used by those without morals or compassion.

"When you keep comparing MWO to other things that are not even sports or games, its because you have no real argument. Just stop already. This game is no less respectable then chess or football. Why do you feel the need to troll me about this? (rhetorical question)"



I'll answer that rhetorical question anyway!
Comparisons are made to illustrate points. Just because you do not agree with the comparison does not mean there is no valid point! In fact I have found everything Joseph has said in response to your two posts perfectly logical and valid. Your points, on the other hand are malleable, shaky, bigoted and close minded. You make flawed connections in logic, are unable to make cogent arguments, you frequently make claims that you are uanable or unwilling to back up or cite and are generally close minded and unreasonable (see my discussion on the dictionary definition of Sport as an example). These are all claims I can back up with citations of yours (and from time to time, have done) from this very thread.

I agree in that this game has no intrinsic value less than chess or football. The fact that MWO is not a sport is not a condemnation of MWO, is not valuing MWO less than any sport and does not mean we are poor sportsman because of it. I won't tolerate those accusations thrown around by you any longer.

There is no troll here other than any you bring with yourself.

So, now you have demonstrated Straw-manning, quote mining, shaming language, splitting, vilifying, projection, stereotyping, arrogance, false accusations, deceit, hypocrisy, demonization, libel and general and specific insults.

You have until tomorrow to retract your libellous before I take action.

Edited by Nightfire, 30 January 2014 - 12:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 29 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

When you say they don't deserve the same respect as athletic sports, I don't have to read your mind.

Just to keep this post on topic, can you still imagine athletic scouts and pro managers using an ELO based on nothing but w/l to determine an individual players rating?

I play video games, I am playing this game with good sportsmanship, and and a eye on fair play. I do not consider myself as a gamer on the same level as an athlete, if you do, that's fine, power to you. Scouts use ERA, Pass completion and other statistics. Us using W/L to determine my level of competence when I am a mear 8.3% of a team is stupid. K/D damage dealt and Assists are a measure of MY value to a team.

Quote

How bout Don't buy it? To try and convince others not to buy it, when noone has to and when it could actually help the game, is pretty selfish.

You are a weird bird. Opinions are free to give, and to ignore, just as I am ignoring your insistence that I SHOULD pay $500 for a skin. Its about the apparent worth of the product. $500 for the color Gold or $500 this. To me the difference is quite obvious but your opinion may vary.

Quote

Same can be said about any sport. Yes we already know your an RPG players.

Am I supposed to be Insulted by this? Is this or idea of putting me in my place? You need a bit more experience arguing with grown men. I was playing Pong Before I started throwing dice to to do 1d8 damage.

Quote

There have been many threads with these things going on. You just said you don't think a 500 dollar mech is worth it. WHy post about that and not keep it to yourself?

Because you have it incorrect, The Mech is worth $30 Al a Carte. The gold fleece is not worth $500. If you can say it is worth it I can say it is not. That is how discussions and debates work.

Quote

Its only not worth it because either A, you can't afford it, or B you don't think the game deserves it. If its B why don't you think the game deserves to make any more money? Consider it a donation, whats the issue? Are you one of these guys claiming they don't deserve more money till they release CW like they promised when noone even plays 12 mans as it is? lol

Or C as a 48 year old I can prioritize what is and isn't a value.

$500 for a golden fleece

vs

$500 for a Whole Computer? You seem to like putting words in folks mouth. Saying $500 for a skin on a Mech is not saying don't make purchases at all. It is a cautionary warning to maybe spend your money more wisely on the game. $500 for a skin is not a good purchase when for $240 I can get 24 Omni Mechs. The choice is obvious which I would recommend!

Quote

Right because those guys are more respectable then Fatal1ty to you. Because atheletic sports is more respectable then video games to you for some reason... Yet you've been "involved in this IP for 30 years" ... Shame on you! It really does explain though why this genre and game are not popular.

Again putting words in my Mouth. I Don't know Fatal1ty, I have no idea how he carries him/her self. So I have no opinion on him as a person, He's a good gamer... Does that make him worthy of respect? He capitalized on his 15 minutes of fame, So he has some good business sense. Does that make him someone worthy of respect? He won $500,000 playing games... I have earned $1,600,000 over the last 20 years of work(I reallllly should have more to show for this!!! ). Maybe he should respect me!? After all I show much more fortitude/endurance than he has.

Quote

And what is that about cheating? I hope your not making excuses for cheating now lol. But the ratio of honest players to cheaters is why some sports are not that popular. Theres a big difference between strategy game communities like LoL and SC2 compared to FPS communities. I'm not even gonna go there.

You seem to be using a blanket argument that sports and athletes deserve respect because they are in sports and are athletes. Yet many formerly respected athletes have proven to be cheating, lying, bums. I respect those who respect themselves and others.

Quote

All I know is sync dropping really ruins this game, and these same players will not be happy when they realize CW will be not much different for them, and they won't be able to farm cbills in private matches...

Sync dropping in a game that is made for teams is in poor taste? It is working against the system. I do not support it, But If my opponent feels they need to bring a full team to beat up me and my band of random players (or my 4man) I am honored they feel they need such advantages to beat us! Perspective is everything Sir.

Quote

When you keep comparing MWO to other things that are not even sports or games, its because you have no real argument. Just stop already. This game is no less respectable then chess or football. Why do you feel the need to troll me about this? (rhetorical question)

Really? You don't think Mother Teresa is worthy of more respect that ANY athlete? MW:O is a game. I can like a game, I can enjoy a game. The game introduced me to Murphy's Law, a group of Men and Women I respect. This band of Misfits took me in, Showed me respect, Collected up the money to buy me a good computer to play MW:O on. They didn't know me from Jack. But they put together $500 and got me a computer. So please, when you try to tell me the value of $500... You really have no idea what that amount of money really means to me! These men and women I respect. As well as DaZur, Must, Khob, StJobe, Goose, Bishop, Paladin1, Bostwick. WarHippy, Sandpit, Mecules, And many others. They are not athletes, rock stars, or anything as meaning less as that. They are just good people who I respect.

@NightFire. Great post, Rich does not have to retract a thing he has said. I know the person I am, and I am more critical of who that person is than he could ever be. He is allowed his opinion, an I encourage him to maintain it. If everyone is thinking the same thing... Somebody's not thinking at all. As General Patton said.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Nightfire]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

@NightFire. Great post, Rich does not have to retract a thing he has said. I know the person I am, and I am more critical of who that person is than he could ever be. He is allowed his opinion, an I encourage him to maintain it. If everyone is thinking the same thing... Somebody's not thinking at all. As General Patton said.

Not to offend Joseph but yeah, he does! He can insult me all day long in a great many areas but he doesn't get to call me "scum of the earth" and denigrate for many others and myself, what was in essence an on going act of charity. We poured our hearts into that endeavor for many years and some of us wished we had more of a lasting effect than we did. RichAC watches a documentary or two and thinks he can tell me and mine the truth of our hearts and souls and reinvent the history of our lives and tell me we were nothing but money grubbing exploiters ... no, he really does need to retract that libel.

May your armour never sunder and your weapons strike true, brother of the fist!

[MischiefSC]

If someone says something libel they do need to retract. It's not about opinion at that point - you can have an opinion. To insult or accuse someone of behavior that is demonstratively untrue, well, that's not only 'uncool' but in a business context libel.

It's the difference between being afraid of a fire in a theater and shouting 'FIRE!' in a theater when there is, in fact, no fire. One is an opinion, the other is a public expression of an untruth.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nightfire, on 30 January 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Not to offend Joseph but yeah, he does! He can insult me all day long in a great many areas but he doesn't get to call me "scum of the earth" and denigrate for many others and myself, what was in essence an on going act of charity. We poured our hearts into that endeavor for many years and some of us wished we had more of a lasting effect than we did. RichAC watches a documentary or two and thinks he can tell me and mine the truth of our hearts and souls and reinvent the history of our lives and tell me we were nothing but money grubbing exploiters ... no, he really does need to retract that libel.

May your armour never sunder and your weapons strike true, brother of the fist!

That's your call then.

[SniperCon]

This ship may have already sailed but:

ELO is a measure and predictor of results, not skill. ELO doesn't work if and only if results don't predict results.

ELO wouldn't work for a game like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Just because Player A had won 3 in a row and Player B has lost 3 in a row doesn't mean that Player A is favored to win game 4.

If in MWO a random group of players who have won 3 in a row is pared vs a random group of players who have lost 3 in a row, the players with better results will be favored. Therefore ELO works for MWO.

There may be some controversy that someone plays 90% 12 and 4 man will have an inflated ELO compared to someone who 90% solo queues. Still in my opinion, ELO is still reasonably effective, simpler, and less controversial than a weighted algorithm to estimate player skill. I also think that it is a good decision to have separate ELO for weight class but not go as far as variant or chassis.

Edited by SniperCon, 30 January 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[RichAC]

I play video games, I am playing this game with good sportsmanship, and and a eye on fair play. I do not consider myself as a gamer on the same level as an athlete, if you do, that's fine, power to you. Scouts use ERA, Pass completion and other statistics. Us using W/L to determine my level of competence when I am a mear 8.3% of a team is stupid. K/D damage dealt and Assists are a measure of MY value to a team.

No, of course not, your not Jordan, your more like the old guy still playing ball in his local park. But unlike you, at least he respects the sport he plays just as much as pro athletes respect theirs.

You are a weird bird. Opinions are free to give, and to ignore, just as I am ignoring your insistence that I SHOULD pay $500 for a skin. Its about the apparent worth of the product. $500 for the color Gold or $500 this. To me the difference is quite obvious but your opinion may vary.

If you can't afford or don't want to buy one then fine. I'm not gonna be disrespectful to people who do. Especially since they are helping to keep the game running. For Someone who supposedly loves the game and has "been invovled in the IP for 30 years" you sure don't act like it.

Am I supposed to be Insulted by this? Is this or idea of putting me in my place? You need a bit more experience arguing with grown men. I was playing Pong Before I started throwing dice to to do 1d8 damage.

More false sense of entitlements..haha Those young kids in LoL, they get more respect from me.

Because you have it incorrect, The Mech is worth $30 Al a Carte. The gold fleece is not worth $500. If you can say it is worth it I can say it is not. That is how discussions and debates w

Its not worth it to you. Thats nice. But I'll repeat myself ..... A. Either you can't afford it or B. you don't think PGI deserves the money. Why? Your still not explaining>

Is it Because A. your a sore loser who is constantly crying about fair play. Or B. you think PGI should be releasing promised content faster? Things LIke CW, when noone even plays 12 mans as it is!? lol

Or C as a 48 year old I can prioritize what is and isn't a value.

$500 for a golden fleece

Oh ya, your not trying to convince anyone not to buy one at all...sure... Keep it to yourself, why post about it in the first place? Consider it a DONATION. OR a way Invest in future development. If you feel you need something out of it for the money, fine. Don't disrespect PGI or other players who don't mind buying one for the game they have loved for 30 years.

$500 for a Whole Computer? You seem to like putting words in folks mouth. Saying $500 for a skin on a Mech is not saying don't make purchases at all. It is a cautionary warning to maybe spend your money more wisely on the game. $500 for a skin is not a good purchase when for $240 I can get 24 Omni Mechs. The choice is obvious which I would recommend!

So you can't afford it. Neither can I. But i'm not bitter and jealous about it. ANd i'm not gonna post all over the forums about it. Noone has to buy it for any reason. It does not affect the gameplay or fair competition in any way. What is the problem?

Again putting words in my Mouth. I Don't know Fatal1ty, I have no idea how he carries him/her self. So I have no opinion on him as a person, He's a good gamer... Does that make him worthy of respect? He capitalized on his 15 minutes of fame, So he has some good business sense. Does that make him someone worthy of respect? He won $500,000 playing games... I have earned $1,600,000 over the last 20 years of work(I reallllly should have more to show for this!!! ). Maybe he should respect me!? After all I show much more fortitude/endurance than he has.

oh so you can afford a 500 dollar mech. You just dont' respect MWO enough for what would be measly donation for someone as wealthy as you, for a game struggling that you've loved for 30 years? haha...wow. And what does money have to do with sports, except corrupt it? The same reason I used to explain that sportaccord link, invovling chess in the olympics.

You just don't understand video games.. The skill gap is just as huge as in pro athletic sports. He is like Tiger Woods, compared to some old guy on an amateur lvl, which would be you. Actually guys in their 30s are usually the old guys, Just in like athletic sports.

Again, comparing sports to something other then other sports or games, is offtopic. Its you conceding this argument and looking desperate and out of touch.

You seem to be using a blanket argument that sports and athletes deserve respect because they are in sports and are athletes. Yet many formerly respected athletes have proven to be cheating, lying, bums. I respect those who respect themselves and others

What does that have to do with the majority that isn't, or the sport itself??! I'm trying to explain that MWO is no different then any sport that gets respected by most of society. Including you, but now your here saying all athletes are lying cheating bums? But yet you have more respect for them the MWO players? haha What are you saying here? I can understand society not respecting the game, but even people that play it everyday?

I have respect for people in MWO, that have respect for MWO.

Sync dropping in a game that is made for teams is in poor taste? It is working against the system. I do not support it, But If my opponent feels they need to bring a full team to beat up me and my band of random players (or my 4man) I am honored they feel they need such advantages to beat us! Perspective is everything Sir

Either you don't support it or you do. Its very suspicious and misleading to claim you feel "honored" by cheaters...hahaha

Really? You don't think Mother Teresa is worthy of more respect that ANY athlete? MW:O is a game. I can like a game, I can enjoy a game. The game introduced me to Murphy's Law, a group of Men and Women I respect. This band of Misfits took me in, Showed me respect, Collected up the money to buy me a good computer to play MW:O on. They didn't know me from Jack. But they put together $500 and got me a computer. So please, when you try to tell me the value of $500... You really have no idea what that amount of money really means to me! These men and women I respect. As well as DaZur, Must, Khob, StJobe, Goose, Bishop, Paladin1, Bostwick. WarHippy, Sandpit, Mecules, And many others. They are not athletes, rock stars, or anything as meaning less as that. They are just good people who I respect

I don't think she has anything to do with sports or games. And someone who brings her up in this context of this debate is the weird bird. Not me..lmao Your out there buddy.

You haven't responded to the fact I said sports provide countless jobs in many industries, helping the economy, and saves countless lives. Not to mention they bring people from all around the world together peacefully. Many believe the Olympics helped bring down the Berlin Wall and end the cold war.

Just because your not the greatest at video games, doesn't mean someone like Fatal1ty isn't miles ahead of you making you look like a total amateur. This is how I know you never were a competitive gamer. You don't understand the huge skill gaps and how these guys can consistently win in most of these games.

@NightFire. Great post, Rich does not have to retract a thing he has said. I know the person I am, and I am more critical of who that person is than he could ever be. He is allowed his opinion, an I encourage him to maintain it. If everyone is thinking the same thing... Somebody's not thinking at all. As General Patton said

I know the person you are too. Same as nightfire. The type of person who has no respect for video games, and because they have had direct influence all these years. The type of person that is most responsible for this genre and e-sports unpopularity in general.

Eventually you won't be around anymore, and hopefully the new generations of young kids, like the ones that have put LoL on a high pedestal, become the changing of the guard for this gaming industry and evolve past the conventional way of thinking that is part of its downfall.

Edited by RichAC, 30 January 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[RichAC]

SniperCon, on 30 January 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

This ship may have already sailed but:

ELO is a measure and predictor of results, not skill. ELO doesn't work if and only if results don't predict results.

ELO wouldn't work for a game like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Just because Player A had won 3 in a row and Player B has lost 3 in a row doesn't mean that Player A is favored to win game 4.

If in MWO a random group of players who have won 3 in a row is pared vs a random group of players who have lost 3 in a row, the players with better results will be favored. Therefore ELO works for MWO.

There may be some controversy that someone plays 90% 12 and 4 man will have an inflated ELO compared to someone who 90% solo queues. Still in my opinion, ELO is still reasonably effective, simpler, and less controversial than a weighted algorithm to estimate player skill. I also think that it is a good decision to have separate ELO for weight class but not go as far as variant or chassis.

Yes it works if the end result most players striving to attain is wins, and not dmg and kills...

I don't have a problem with the matchmaker, I don't even know of another fps that has one and love PGI for that. I'm always playing to win and don't have an issue with my K/D or dmg. Only competitive players would care about any of these things anyways.

But i'm putting myself in the shoes of most of the players who only care about cbills, even though that goes agains tthe spirit of winning since, there is no great cbill reward for matches won, I want to see the game not lose anymore players.

I think something else most people don't realize, is matche scores are always more uneven with a very small playerbase. IF there were thousands of people on a day, it would be much easier to find people of equal skill. Unfortunately MWO does not have that luxury. SO there is always going to be a a big skill gap, which they just had to widen in the last patch to include more players.

Edited by RichAC, 30 January 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 30 January 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

No, of course not, your not Jordan, your more like the old guy still playing ball in his local park. But unlike you, at least he respects the sport he plays just as much as pro athletes respect theirs.

I respect the game I play as well, As I have said I have been on both sides of the imaginary line. As a player and an Insider. I do not need to imagine the game is a sport to love it.

Giving my opinion is in no means disrespectful. In fact it is showing the ultimate respect. I am telling you what I feel is the truth. If you do not like my view, in the future you know to not ask my opinion. How respectful is it to lie or stay silent if you feel you see something wrong?

More false sense of entitlements..haha Those young kids in LoL, they get more respect from me.

Possibly cause you show them more respect than you have shown me? Respect is earned, You are getting all the respect you have earned from me... if not more.

I like how you write off humility as entitlement!

Its not worth it to you. Thats nice. But I'll repeat myself ..... A. Either you can't afford it or B. you don't think PGI deserves the money. Why? Your still not explaining>
As I have already given PGI well over $800 You are right, I don't think $500 or the color gold and a fancy title is a value. $500 v $240 for 24 mechs is a much better deal, and one I would recommend. You get more for your money.

Is it Because A. your a sore loser who is constantly crying about fair play. Or B. you think PGI should be releasing promised content faster? Things LIke CW, when noone even plays 12 mans as it is!? lol
Please read my posts? Read for yourself my stance on what I think is fair play? PGI should release content when it is ready, players need t have more patience, or take a break until such content is released. Whining cause the game isn't to your specific taste right now is putting the cart before the horse.

Oh ya, your not trying to convince anyone not to buy one at all...sure... Keep it to yourself, why post about it in the first place? Consider it a DONATION. OR a way Invest in future development. If you feel you need something out of it for the money, fine. Don't disrespect PGI or other players who don't mind buying one for the game they have loved for 30 years.

To allow players to see more than one perspective and make a better informed choice. If you have the money and ou want to spend it on Gold Mechs, You will. Much like you telling me I should be willing to spend the money does not make me want to spend the money. It is what opinions are. I have donated Plenty to this game already. I donated to cancer research because of a very young and precious fellow gamer. Spare me your attempts to shame me. Many better than you have tried, you don't measure up.

So you can't afford it. Neither can I. But i'm not bitter and jealous about it. ANd i'm not gonna post all over the forums about it. Noone has to buy it for any reason. It does not affect the gameplay or fair competition in any way. What is the problem?

Bitter and jelling would be me saying I will TK any Golden fleece I see, or that I will hunt the enemy golden fleece. I don't think is worth the dollar amount and I have a right to say so. Just as you have a right to disagree.

oh so you can afford a 500 dollar mech. You just dont' respect MWO enough for what would be measly donation for someone as wealthy as you, for a game struggling that you've loved for 30 years? haha...wow. And what does money have to do with sports, except corrupt it? The same reason I used to explain that sportaccord link, invovling chess in the olympics.

Yup. I can afford it, I don't think it is good deal though. I just calculated my donations to this game. $15 a week (minimum) for 6 months ($360). Heavy Metal ($20), One wild weekend of spending ($260), and an Elite Founders package ($80) I do not see a a Founder's or a Phoenix Badge under your Mailed Fist? Why haven't YOU invested in this game as much as I have or NightFire or MisChief? We are wearing our Loyalty on our sleeves. As it looks right now You have supported the game LESS than I have. Just cause someone thinks Chess is a sport does not mean it is a sport.

You just don't understand video games.. The skill gap is just as huge as in pro athletic sports. He is like Tiger Woods, compared to some old guy on an amateur lvl, which would be you. Actually guys in their 30s are usually the old guys, Just in like athletic sports.
I was probably playing video games before you were born. Something can be competitive an not be a sport. Poker, Chess, Heck I compete with my coworkers to see if I can make more quality parts than they do, Does that make my job a sport?

Again, comparing sports to something other then other sports or games, is offtopic. Its you conceding this argument and looking desperate and out of touch.

Comparing a sport to a video game is insulting to sports, And I am a video game Addict!

What does that have to do with the majority that isn't, or the sport itself??! I'm trying to explain that MWO is no different then any sport that gets respected by most of society. Including you, but now your here saying all athletes are lying cheating bums? But yet you have more respect for them the MWO players? haha What are you saying here? I can understand society not respecting the game, but even people that play it everyday?
What you seem to not realize is I can respect a game for what it is, a good to great game. It does not need to be falsely elevated to being a sport to have my respect.

I have respect for people in MWO, that have respect for MWO.
I can respect people that don't respect the game, I guess I am more respectful that you are.

Either you don't support it or you do. Its very suspicious and misleading to claim you feel "honored" by cheaters...hahaha

Really? If someone thinks they have to cheat to beat me, they MUST think I am some MW:O monster. Something that they could not beat fighting fairly.

I don't think she has anything to do with sports or games. And someone who brings her up in this context of this debate is the weird bird. Not me..lmao Your out there buddy.

In the context of Respectable, there is no higher pinnacle than Mother Teresa! The woman dedicated her life to helping the less fortunate, never seeking glory or fame. She did the right thing cause it WAS the right thing. That is the most respectable any person could possibly be.

[color=#959595]You haven't responded to the fact I said sports provide countless jobs in many industries, helping the economy, and saves countless lives. Not to mention they bring people from all around the world together peacefully. Many believe the Olympics helped bring down the Berlin Wall and end the cold war.[/color]
So does the Detroit international auto show. The auto industry, Kmart, WalMart, McDonald's

Peaceful spectators? Why were some team considering pulling their athletes from Sochie again...? The possibility of Terrorist attacks wasn't it? Munich

Just because your not the greatest at video games, doesn't mean someone like Fatal1ty isn't miles ahead of you making you look like a total amateur. This is how I know you never were a competitive gamer. You don't understand the huge skill gaps and how these guys can consistently win in most of these games.
Being a professional gamer does not make him an athlete. I just don't have a false sense of gaming. Even if I was a top ranked player I would not compare myself to being an athlete. That is to conceded even for ME?

I know the person you are too. Same as nightfire. The type of person who has no respect for video games, and because they have had direct influence all these years. The type of person that is most responsible for this genre and e-sports unpopularity in general.
If I had no respect for video games I would not play them at ALL. Cause I would be embarrassed to be associated with em. But here I am discussing the merits of being a gamer geek with with you! I have been a gamer geek for 35 years. If it weren't for my dedication and money spent in arcades back in the 80s, You wouldn't even have the ability to tell me how wrong I am.

Eventually you won't be around anymore, and hopefully the new generations of young kids, like the ones that have put LoL on a high pedestal, become the changing of the guard for this gaming industry and evolve past the conventional way of thinking that is part of its downfall.
Yup, eventually my reflexes and eye sight will get to a point where I will not be able to keep up with younger eyes & response times. I'll be on the roads instead Good thing I have two children that I taught good sense to!

To you I say, "Caesar, you are a mere Mortal Man."

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 06:27 AM.