164 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 January 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Simple. The Point f Mediums is it is a fairly affordable machine that can fill gaps in forces.

That statement doesn't apply to mwo. First of all a lot of heavies and even assaults (The stalker 3f is cheap) can be purchased after a few dozen games for a brand new player. It is not upgraded at that time but can be improved after more games.

'Filling the gap' would imply that there actually are financial 'gaps' or other factors (weight) that would render assaults a rarerity on the battlefield.

Again those considerations do not apply to mwo where there is no weight limit and even heavy hitters can be bought rather quickly by just about anybody except some unlucky newbies that didn't check the forums and bought what ever looked good with their cadet bonus only to find out its not the best mech or they don't like the connected playstyle such a mech demands.

So there are no gaps and most ppl can quickly afford very powerful mechs early on which leads back to what I posted earlier. Where the game stands now, competitively speaking, mediums are not on par. That is, mediums' advantages do not outweigh the advantages of a 12 man assault team as weight is no factor and financial concernes only a rather negligible factor. Speed, a mediums main advantage over heavier mechs, is yet another rather unimportant trait in e.g. skirmish where no soft targets have to be covered or stormed quickly to fullfill mission objectives with minimal resources. That only applies to assault or conquest.

In skirmish, if winning is a team's objective that outweighs all other considerations (testing out all mechs, funbuilds, pugging, etc.) then choosing mediums is even detrimental to a teams chances of success. Most maps, if not all, are barely big enough for small-scale ambushes but that mostly works only once because the maps are too small to disengage. On most maps, despite its speed, even a lets say spider, cannot truely escape 8 - 12 mechs for very long. Speed in skirmish, and thus a medium/lights heavy team, could be efficient if the maps were so vast that those 'lighter' teams could fight a guerilla-hit-and-run war. There are no such maps in mwo as ppl get bored too easily and just want to shoot 'stuff' mostly hehe. Even though a heavier focus on 'simulation' would ultimately provide a much deeper and therefore much much more satisfying mechwarrior experience.

At least for me.

Edited by oneda, 28 January 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Why does a person like red or blue colors on a mech when clearly browns and greens are superior. I do not understand why people run a mech in anything but camo colors and patterns.

The answer...Because people LIKE crazy colors and patterns on their mechs. Same goes for why people LIKE Medium mechs, they just do. It fits their style of play and they have fun and enjoy using them.

Yea, question answered, were done

[LowSubmarino]

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

Why does a person like red or blue colors on a mech when clearly browns and greens are superior. I do not understand why people run a mech in anything but camo colors and patterns.

The answer...Because people LIKE crazy colors and patterns on their mechs. Same goes for why people LIKE Medium mechs, they just do. It fits their style of play and they have fun and enjoy using them.

Yea, question answered, were done

It comes down to subjective perspective. As you just said: if somebody just wants to have fun then they don't care about competitive aspects as much. If a team just wants to win because they like to win then mediums are a sub par choice.

You can't outline the benefits of a weight class solely by attributing it a fun factor a la "ppl like the mechs so what's the problem" philosophy.

[MeiSooHaityu]

oneda, on 28 January 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

You can't outline the benefits of a weight class solely by attributing it a fun factor a la "ppl like the mechs so what's the problem" philosophy.

Although I would like to see a better defined roll for the mech (whether custom drop types in Community Warfare or tonnage limits on drops for premade groups), I will say this to your comment...

MWO is not a professional sport, a job, or chore. MWO is a game and the #1 purpose of a game is to have fun, not to worry about whether you are running the 2 most effective "competitive" builds in the game.

Maybe if this game (in some weird alternate reality) becomes big like Starcraft in South Korea and people play ladder tournaments for money and endorsements, then MAYBE there can be an argument made for treating it with the utmost seriousness.

Just my 2 cents. If it seems like a wrong opionion, I guess I just don't get it.

[LowSubmarino]

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 January 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Although I would like to see a better defined roll for the mech (whether custom drop types in Community Warfare or tonnage limits on drops for premade groups), I will say this to your comment...

MWO is not a professional sport, a job, or chore. MWO is a game and the #1 purpose of a game is to have fun, not to worry about whether you are running the 2 most effective "competitive" builds in the game.

Maybe if this game (in some weird alternate reality) becomes big like Starcraft in South Korea and people play ladder tournaments for money and endorsements, then MAYBE there can be an argument made for treating it with the utmost seriousness.

Just my 2 cents. If it seems like a wrong opionion, I guess I just don't get it.

Opinions are opinions hehe. They are not right or wrong they simply exist. And I believe you misjudge how many ppl want to both: win and have some fun while doing that. That balance sometimes tips towards one or the other end of the scale. Why else do ppl check the forums and "test" builds. They want to see if they are viable. The same goes for the mechs themselves.

[Steel Claws]

I really don't understand why people think mediums aren't good. I just had a drop where our team was 2 spiders, a Jager DD and the rest mediums vs a team with 4 assaults (atlas, battlemaster, stalker, victor DS), 1 light, two mediums and the rest heavies and we won 12/8. This isn't a lucky drop. I've seen many medium heavy teams win because they are more mobile.

[MeiSooHaityu]

oneda, on 28 January 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Opinions are opinions hehe. They are not right or wrong they simply exist. And I believe you misjudge how many ppl want to both: win and have some fun while doing that. That balance sometimes tips towards one or the other end of the scale. Why else do ppl check the forums and "test" builds. They want to see if they are viable. The same goes for the mechs themselves.

Very true.

I do think Mediums are a bit more useful than many give them credit for, but I can see where people want the absolute best mech possible for a given game type or playstyle and often a Medium does not fit that role (not heavily armored or high alpha strike capability).

I just believe with the right piloting and strategy, they can be pretty effective and fun. Like you said though, opinions will vary.

[Belorion]

Mediums are typically the death of lights...

Mediums are more maneuverable than heavies.

[jper4]

Trauglodyte, on 27 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Congratulations! You found the Streak button and spammed it to the extreme. You, and people like you, are truely the elite of the skilled players in this game. I applaud you for showing the rest of us the errors of our way and will dedicate the rest of my life to following in your foot steps. I too wish that I can, some day, press the easy button as well as you.

/golf clap
.

shhhh! no revealing my supser secret oxide battle technique dammit!

[tucsonspeed6]

*CLICK*

Ok, guys, I've just toggled the e-peen shutdown override so we can keep this thread going a little longer, but if you keep this up the whole thread is going to explode.

[Fut]

LoneMaverick, on 24 January 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Mediums exist to make me feel good when I dominate all the cookiecutter heavies/assaults.

Also I'd worry less about the speed heavies/assaults go per engine size, and rather tweak their torso turn and turn radius speed down a bit from where it is now. ATM an elite'd out heavy/assault running anything over a 250 doesn't feel any different than a Medium or a Light in that respect, which is where the faster frames should excel, being able to get into blindspots and stay there.

Edit : Artgartha = Indepth analysis of what I just said, nice post btw.

Exactly this.
Mediums would be much more popular if the Heavy/Assaults weren't way too quick at torso twisting.

Although a tonne of people would cry if their speed was toned down, I really hope PGI catches on and changes things.

[Ngamok]

Trauglodyte, on 25 January 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

That's not what I meant, Charon, and you know that. People leaning on the AC20 to turn their Medium into a good mech are terrible players. That's all that you need to know. The BJ-1© was a horrible mech that is both easy to destroy and laughable when you consider that the Blackjack was a fire support platform. Slapping on a much bigger weapon doesn't make the build better.

But the HBK-4G comes with it. I do well in mine till my hunch goes if I expose it too much while running at 90.2 KPH. It happens some games that it goes away pretty fast then all I have is 2 Medium lasers at that point so I do the best that i can. The AC/20 is a great gun to pretty much finish off mechs that are hurt. You got an orange center, gone.

[Ngamok]

Khobai, on 25 January 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Mediums are still way too slow.

light mechs go 150-170
heavy mechs go 65-85

mediums should go 110-130, which is in between lights and heavies. but in reality most mediums can only go 90-110.

They need about a 20kph speed buff.

Well there are exceptions. The Dragon can go 106.9 KPH if you put a 360 in it, same for the Quickdraw. The Wolverine 6K can go 120.x KPH with a 375 in it. Centurion D is the other exception with a 390 max. But I do agree with you that the Heavies need to slow down to 80 KPH max which is where the Mediums should be starting at on the very low end.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well there are exceptions. The Dragon can go 106.9 KPH if you put a 360 in it, same for the Quickdraw. The Wolverine 6K can go 120.x KPH with a 375 in it. Centurion D is the other exception with a 390 max. But I do agree with you that the Heavies need to slow down to 80 KPH max which is where the Mediums should be starting at on the very low end.

Lights go 150-170kph. So Mediums should be going at least 110-130kph to fill the speed gap between heavies and lights. Look where the biggest speed disparity is. Its not between heavies and mediums. Its between mediums and lights. Heavies dont need to go slower. Mediums need to go faster. A lot faster.

How is it fair to force a Hunchback to be slow, because its slow in canon? But then not force that same restriction on a Jenner? Which is only supposed to go 116kph in canon. Hunchbacks should be able to go 125kph if they want to.

Medium mechs should get a passive speed bonus. They already have to devote too much tonnage to their engines to maintain their speed advantage over heavies. So a passive speed bonus makes the most sense to me.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Ngamok]

Trauglodyte, on 27 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Congratulations! You found the Streak button and spammed it to the extreme. You, and people like you, are truely the elite of the skilled players in this game. I applaud you for showing the rest of us the errors of our way and will dedicate the rest of my life to following in your foot steps. I too wish that I can, some day, press the easy button as well as you.

/golf clap

Sarcasm to the poster above aside, people need to realize what Mediums are and what they aren't. Aside from the Cicada, which was built as a heavier scout and a scout predator (it doesn't live up to either in this game, sadly), Mediums were designed as Heavy and Assault supplementary mechs. Your job is to cruise around with the heavier mechs and add fire power to theirs. If you weren't designed to do that, you were either extremely niche designed (ie Hunchback for Urban combat), you were religated to picket defense of other mechs (ie Centurion), or you were sitting in the back as fire support (ie Trebuchet). Medium mechs were the most common because they were the most needed and cheapest to build. They were, for all intents and purposes, the Destroyers and Light Cruisers in the WWII Pacific fleets. They had decent fire power and speed but not enough of either of those or armor to take on Heavy Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, or Battleships. They stayed on the outside and added anti-aircraft firepower to combat the enemy Aircraft Carriers, hunted down Submarines, and added torpedo and ballistic fire support to the bigger, slower, and much less numbered heavier ships. Once you get that in your mind, you'll end up doing better in yoru Medium mech. But, you will never be as deadly or feared as the bigger mechs because you're easier to kill and lack the scary punch that the bigger mechs. So, play like the after thought that you are and take advantage of it. But, don't come here with really bad screen shots of "uber damage" and pretend like you're doing something special because you're not.

I liked your description. This is how I play my non Light Hunter mediums. As added guns for the bigger boys and chase off the lights if they come around.

[Doctor Proctor]

Khobai, on 28 January 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Lights go 150-170kph. So Mediums should be going at least 110-130kph to fill the speed gap between heavies and lights. Look where the biggest speed disparity is. Its not between heavies and mediums. Its between mediums and lights. Heavies dont need to go slower. Mediums need to go faster. A lot faster.

How is it fair to force a Hunchback to be slow, because its slow in canon? But then not force that same restriction on a Jenner? Which is only supposed to go 116kph in canon. Hunchbacks should be able to go 125kph if they want to.

Medium mechs should get a passive speed bonus. They already have to devote too much tonnage to their engines to maintain their speed advantage over heavies. So a passive speed bonus makes the most sense to me.

The only problem is that if the last Medium agility pass is any indication, PGI will just raise the engine cap. This doesn't help Mediums who already barely edge above Lights when they're running STD engines compared to the XL's in Light mechs.

[Artgathan]

Doctor Proctor, on 28 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

The only problem is that if the last Medium agility pass is any indication, PGI will just raise the engine cap. This doesn't help Mediums who already barely edge above Lights when they're running STD engines compared to the XL's in Light mechs.

The Medium Agility Pass was a joke. An increase in pitch angles and torso twist? There was no actual buff to their mobility (acceleration, deceleration, turn speed) if I recall correctly. Medium mechs have acceleration/deceleration rates on par with Heavy mechs (with stock Hunchbacks and Centurions being on par with Assault mechs). The Yen-Lo-Wang actually has the same deceleration as the Awesomes (except Pretty Baby). Seriously?

[Bagheera]

Increasing engine caps on mediums isn't going to do much for them at this point- most of the fastest current builds on every chassis are pushing the limits of weight, crit space, or both.

Artgathan, on 28 January 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

The Medium Agility Pass was a joke. An increase in pitch angles and torso twist? There was no actual buff to their mobility (acceleration, deceleration, turn speed) if I recall correctly. Medium mechs have acceleration/deceleration rates on par with Heavy mechs (with stock Hunchbacks and Centurions being on par with Assault mechs). The Yen-Lo-Wang actually has the same deceleration as the Awesomes (except Pretty Baby). Seriously?

This is where it is at if we want to give mediums some semblance of a mobility advantage, then they need boosts in accel, deccel, and turning performance.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Skyfaller, on 24 January 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

I ask this because most heavy mechs can be equipped with as much or better weaponry than a medium and still go just as fast (80-90kph'ish) while having much better armor and the flexibility of much better/heavier armaments.

Perhaps it is time to make heavy and assault mechs slower per engine size? (I mean seriously, an assault running at nearly 80kph?)


I would put:

lights at ~150kph max.
Mediums at ~100 kph max.
Heavies at ~60kph max.
Assaults @ ~40 kph max.

Understandably, increase the armor values per ton of each mech type appropriately to compensate.

lights do need to be uncapped i want my 150+ spider's, flea's, commandos, ravens and locusts's

eh meds can get up to 130 im pretty sure if you do it right, but bear in mind most med aren't "competitive" because of a lack of speed rather its firepower (hardpoints) and armor where they come up lacking vs the ac40+ cannons.

heavies aren't to bad either altho it would be nice to push up the engine cap for things like dragons and such.

nothing wrong with assaults doing 80kph you have to make alot of trade-offs to make it happen. minus the fact that just 2 er/ppcs are still competitive somehow.... pgi looking at you, yes i see your souls.

but really if assaults going 80 and being super OP is your concern you should be looking at weapons balance because there is no way an assault should be allowed to go 80 (normally) and still rock I-am-god-master-of-pinpoint build.

again pgi i see your souls do i see ppc's in there hiding in the dark?

Bagheera, on 28 January 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Increasing engine caps on mediums isn't going to do much for them at this point- most of the fastest current builds on every chassis are pushing the limits of weight, crit space, or both.



This is where it is at if we want to give mediums some semblance of a mobility advantage, then they need boosts in accel, deccel, and turning performance.

this is a good idea too. honestly if med mechs were just more spry i think it would help alot

Edited by Mellifluer, 28 January 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[LoneMaverick]

Mellifluer, on 28 January 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

eh meds can get up to 130 im pretty sure if you do it right, but bear in mind most med aren't "competitive" because of a lack of speed rather its firepower (hardpoints) and armor where they come up lacking vs the ac40+ cannons.

nothing wrong with assaults doing 80kph you have to make alot of trade-offs to make it happen. minus the fact that just 2 er/ppcs are still competitive somehow.... pgi looking at you, yes i see your souls.

this is a good idea too. honestly if med mechs were just more spry i think it would help alot

If you get your Medium up to 130 I hope you're happy with 2-4MLas and some SRMS, because that's all you're fitting.

Everything is wrong with Assaults hitting 80KPH and still sporting 40 damage alphas, along with perfect torso twist/turn speed, that the speed is locked to the engine size is the main problem.

Medium mechs are pretty damn spry, the main issue is that Heavies/Assaults can easily go nearly as fast(within 20kph), track targets just as well, and still fit a TON of weaponry without sacrificing anything, because engine weight hits Mediums so damn hard.

The ability to track fast moving targets on Heavies and Assaults is way too easy atm, they need to be the lumbering behemoths they -should- be, bringing all that weaponry to bear should be the hard part. When you can nearly drop more tons on weapons than armor and still track any target in the game everything goes to ****.

I'm not even going to touch on how terrible the whole pinpoint alpha poptart assault meta is going on with this, because that is just one more horrendous flaw.