540 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Appogee, on 27 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

imagines the horror of a person who had been ''fixed'' by PGI ...

Meh... My wife "fixed" me after our last kid. Can't take from me what I no longer have...

[Lubalin]

Should also probably clarify what I meant by stomp. I meant obvious difference in skill. Games like:

-enemy has at least a lance focus firing. My whole team walks into them 1 at a time. I am left at the end, begging people to not charge off alone, wait to push together. Then they come over the ridge and focus fire me.

-at beginning of game, everyone runs off in different directions, while I try to get people to group up. we all die alone.

-enemy team all walks out into the open sniping with medium lasers while we rain them with LRMs.

-obvious premade on one team, brand new player who doesn't know how to missile lock on the other.

-my entire team chases first red they see, a single light mech, all over the map, turning backs to the enemy assaults despite taking lots of hits.

-I call out, 4 enemies at X moving to flank. My team stands still, each dies one at a time being shot from behind. no one ever turns around. I die trying to defend them.

Sure, there are games that result in my team getting few kills because we all decided to try a tactic and it didn't work. That's not a stomp. That's still fun. A stomp is a huge difference in coordination/skill/experience.

[Lubalin]

Also, for those saying it's impossible to balance teams on player skill, it's totally doable. I've played games that did a great job at this.

Example: guild wars 2. You get rewarded for all kinds of different actions in pvp. However premades have to fight in their own separate area. Works beautifully. In the battlegrounds, I never run into those terrifyingly skilled players you sometimes see out in WvW.

[xe N on]

/sign for separating premade from random group

If not, this game has no future. I have seen some MMOs go down rapidly by letting premades destroy game for causal players. MWO would not be the first nor the last.

Edited by xe N on, 27 January 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Baltasar]

xe N on, on 27 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

/sign for separating premade from random group

If not, this game has no future. I have seen some MMOs go down rapidly by letting premades destroy game for causal players. MWO would not be the first nor the last.

A lot of your "pre-mades" are just casual players that happen to be on coms. Splitting the 2 groups would probably do worse for the game by increasing the amount of time to find a match as well as larger spread in ELO grouping because of that. However, that is just a hypothesis. Allowing easier communication between players, instead of the horrible bring up map and try and put defense, attack, flank points down, in game would go a longer way to helping in coordination, or allowing singles droppers to group up temporarily after a game if they liked their team.

In fact, I daresay, solo droppers probably have a better chance at most of the "pre-made" groups that I am in when I drop because most of us are just chilling, drunk and shootin' bull.

[Nightcrept]

@sandpit
I have found all sorts of posts about the various matchmaker phases and the limitations on the pre-mades.
You've been around long enough to know all this already though.

[DaZur]

xe N on, on 27 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

/sign for separating premade from random group

If not, this game has no future. I have seen some MMOs go down rapidly by letting premades destroy game for causal players. MWO would not be the first nor the last.

I agree... but it's still not going to "fix" stomps.

If anything, separate queues because the PUG players and e-sport comp players have polar needs derived from the game that forcing the two together causes adverse friction.

Reality is, even if PUGs have their own queue... the group attrition "tipping point" will still occur... It's an equal opportunity statistical anomaly.

​Worse yet... high-tier players will use the PUG queue as their "c-bill farm" and drop in to pillage from the noobs to fill their war coffers.

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Sandpit]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

My attitude?

You're a notorious troll on these forums just like many of the rest of us and you're telling me you don't remember the separate game modes?

Pre-mades could drop with pre-mades only 4 and 12 mans if I recall. I will go back and look just to prove my point.

My attitude towards pre-mades is that they tend to be elitist but otherwise I could care less. So long as theres one on both sides I'm fine with them being in game.

A matter of fact is that I feel that something the game needs is for the groups need to have a more prominent place in the game and on the forums. I.e. my mechwarrior espn idea.

But you can go ahead and disregard my opinion if you wish but it makes you look foolish if you don't even go back to read about things that you say don't exist or didn't happen.

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

@sandpit
I have found all sorts of posts about the various matchmaker phases and the limitations on the pre-mades.
You've been around long enough to know all this already though.

In other words, you couldn't find where it happened because it didn't

That's how the MM works now. A premade on one side means a premade on the other so you SHOULD be good with it. I should know all of this already? No, YOU should know all of this. You claimed they did something and they didn't. You made the claim, I just called BS on it because it's never been done that way.

You don't see why those of us who enjoy the company of our teammates in our units and that's why we drop premades? So we can actually play with people we enjoy playing with? As opposed to playing with dbags that we don't care for? You don't see the social aspect of that? Because up until this point you've done nothing but talk about how premades are evil and are elitist snobs.

I'm sorry you ahve such a poor opinion of people who want nothing more than to kick back and shoot the sh*t while they ploay with like-minded individuals and take a little pride in their units. That's not a reason to blame them for stomps though

[Nightcrept]

Elo is made for individuals verses individuals.

Adding groups and pugs together causes the majority of the rolls that do happen. Though it in no way accounts for them all.


But separate ques would definitely reduce the number. This has been stated by pgi itself during the early MM days.
Mind you they have refined the elo and MM systems to lessen the impacts.


Honestly though none of this can really be fixed until the population grows to a sufficient level and that most likely won't happen until we see a successful cw.

[Nightcrept]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

In other words, you couldn't find where it happened because it didn't

That's how the MM works now. A premade on one side means a premade on the other so you SHOULD be good with it. I should know all of this already? No, YOU should know all of this. You claimed they did something and they didn't. You made the claim, I just called BS on it because it's never been done that way.

You don't see why those of us who enjoy the company of our teammates in our units and that's why we drop premades? So we can actually play with people we enjoy playing with? As opposed to playing with dbags that we don't care for? You don't see the social aspect of that? Because up until this point you've done nothing but talk about how premades are evil and are elitist snobs.

I'm sorry you ahve such a poor opinion of people who want nothing more than to kick back and shoot the sh*t while they ploay with like-minded individuals and take a little pride in their units. That's not a reason to blame them for stomps though

Are you serious?

1. When the MM matches the same size pre--mades against each other and then balances out the teams I indeed have no issue with it. However, the MM often does not and the team with the larger pre-made often wins easily.

2. The elo system does not differentiate between a player puging or on a pre-made other then to avg their elo when in the pre-made. This creates an inflated elo score for pre-made players that throws off the MM when they pug.

3. Pre-mades have at various time throughout the history of this game been restricted in various ways in an attempt to stop the rolls that pgi says happen due to the inherent advantages they have. At times pre-mades have been forced into all sorts of size restrictions.

4. You're putting words into my mouth that I did not say. I don't mind pre-mades. I simply don't think that they should be in game with pugs on a normal basis.

5. Pre-mades in and of themselves are not evil. They do throw off the elo and MM system when combined with pugs. They also do have an huge advantage. And many pre-made players do come on the forums and act very very condescending towards pug players.

6. I enjoy how you tell me that due to my apparent hatred for pre-mades my you're disregarding my opinion and then make obviously bigoted comments like this "As opposed to playing with dbags that we don't care for?".
I do not hate pre-made players. I have been on and ran many clans/guilds. I also recognize that they are an important part of almost any game. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for most pre-made players who post on the forums. Most will make comments about pugs sucking and needing to get better or die etc.


The majority of players will always be pugs in any and all games. I wish we could get the stats but I would bet that in this game at any given time of the day the majority of players in game are puging.

So my standpoint is that you take care of the pugs and they will natural trend towards grouping up if you have a good clan system.

This game does neither.


Solution.

Separate queues:
Pugs only. (new players default here.)
Pre-made and pug. (Pugs can choose to join this queue.) Extra credits and xp as incentive.

Matchmaker adjustments.
Games played.
Weight limits.

Lobby Lobby Lobby.

An actual community warfare.



And the most important to me is that they need a tournament system for both individual and clans. Then they need to run it constantly and blast the results and streams on the front page of the website and the in game UI.
They need a game ticker etc.

A new player should be inundated with this games players and teams like they are watching espn or some other sports news show. A player should be able to have favorite teams and players to root for etc.That would begin to create a good atmosphere that would promote growth and allow the separate queues we need.

Pugs could then play just for fun and emulate their favorite pro players etc. Good players would trickle up and become known and the others would watch and cheer.

[Sandpit]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

snipped

No, I said I dismissed you because you've done nothing but resort to name calling.

There have been several reasons stated why a queue separation won't work. Size of player population being the biggest. The fact that you simply ignore that doesn't make it go away.

There are just as many pugs that come on and act just as condescending towards premades simply because they want to blame someone for losing.

1. Premades are matched up in drops. If there isn't a premade on both sides that's not how it is designed to work and is something you might want to report to support.

2. This works both ways. Having your elo artificially inflated is not a good thing. This mean you're playing above your elo putting you against higher skilled players

3. And? Which SHOULD indicate (as I stated earlier) that PGI has shown that they are capable and willing to nerf groups in order to mitigate things for PUGs. So don't you think if separating the queues was feasible they would?

4. I've put no words into your mouth. I've never misquoted you or said that you said something you didn't

5.Just as many pugs come to the forums and act just as condescending to those who drop in premades. What's the point?

6.I'm disregarding, and have been disregarding your opinion because the last 6 or so posts you had going were nothing more than grade school name calling.


Your "solutions" have already been discussed. a lot, repeatedly. Again, dont' you think that PGI (who has repeatedly shown their stance on the situation to be pro-pug) would do it if it were possible and wouldn't ruin the game for the rest of the player population in extremely long queue times?

Come off the separate queues. It has been pretty apparent that this solution isn't going to work. Yet, every week we get 2-3 threads with the same people proposing the same idea. If it wasn't implemented last week it's not going to be implemented just because a "new" thread is started by the same people with one or two added to both sides of the argument each time.

New players are the only ones that should have their own queue. Veterans that apply and are approved should drop in with them in trial mechs to offer advice and tips. Once they graduate out of their cadet bonus they should have the money and info to make their first mech purchase and enter the CW fray. Give the "drill instructor" volunteers a cool badge or something for volunteering their time.

[Nightcrept]

1. Happens all the time.

2. No it's not good for the premade player either. Good reason for it to be fixed or have separate queues.

3. I think we both agree that it isn't currently possible for separate queues but I think we disagree that there needs to be. Nor do we agree on what pgi has done or their stance on pugs and pre-mades.

4. Ha ha ha. What you have done is say that I meant things in a way I did not.

5. Pugs usually complain about being rolled by pre-mades. Pre-mades on the other hand generally have more of a u suck mentality towards pugs. Big difference. Not saying either is right but there is a difference.

6. Yeah i pretty much disagree with everything you said after 6. It all seemed very biased and status quo.

[Sandpit]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

1. Happens all the time.

2. No it's not good for the premade player either. Good reason for it to be fixed or have separate queues.

3. I think we both agree that it isn't currently possible for separate queues but I think we disagree that there needs to be. Nor do we agree on what pgi has done or their stance on pugs and pre-mades.

4. Ha ha ha. What you have done is say that I meant things in a way I did not.

5. Pugs usually complain about being rolled by pre-mades. Pre-mades on the other hand generally have more of a u suck mentality towards pugs. Big difference. Not saying either is right but there is a difference.

6. Yeah i pretty much disagree with everything you said after 6. It all seemed very biased and status quo.

1. Oddly enough I don't see it. I see it very rarely. Every time I drop in a premade, there's a premade on the other side

2. And again with the separate queues. You seem infatuated with that idea

3. Their stance on premades has been well documented. Straight from the devs. Check the posts. They're very pro-pug. They've stated it several times over the years.

4. No, no I didn't. Direct quotes are hard to "misinterpret"

5. No, condescending and sarcastic attitudes are what they are regardless of the reason behind them

6. That's usually what people say when they either jsut don't agree or can't come up with a good reason why those statements are disregarded but ok

Oh, and I'm STILL waiting for the example where the devs separated the queues. You have yet to provide ANY thing to show where that happened

[nemesis271989]

xe N on, on 27 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

/sign for separating premade from random group

If not, this game has no future. I have seen some MMOs go down rapidly by letting premades destroy game for causal players. MWO would not be the first nor the last.

I think if developers separate community on 2 groups that will be the ultimate end. Because you either play at ELITE level with SUPER CHEESY builds or try to build balanced mech and play among kids.

Elo match is WAAAY WAAAY better solution.

[Asmudius Heng]

From watching people play after I have died (gloriously!) and seeing the lack of targeting to find the damaged mechs I can see why the final kill count sometimes look lopsided.

I have seen so many matches where you might have what looks like a stomp but the enemy team has nearly all cored out mechs almost ready to die.

This is actually a close game but the defeated team did not quite take the opportunity to land a few kill shots and even the balance a little more.

Combat loss groupings as someone said is the main culprit here, it's just the way the game works, its hard to come back from behind esspeically if a team knows when to press the attack to stop a regroup.

[xhrit]

Asmudius Heng, on 27 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

From watching people play after I have died (gloriously!) and seeing the lack of targeting to find the damaged mechs I can see why the final kill count sometimes look lopsided.

I have seen so many matches where you might have what looks like a stomp but the enemy team has nearly all cored out mechs almost ready to die.

This is actually a close game but the defeated team did not quite take the opportunity to land a few kill shots and even the balance a little more.

Combat loss groupings as someone said is the main culprit here, it's just the way the game works, its hard to come back from behind esspeically if a team knows when to press the attack to stop a regroup.

Exactly, Just because killcounts are off, doesn't mean it was not a close game.

Someone got mad at me the other day for saying gg after a close game. he was like 'game wasnt good, it was a stomp'. meanwhile I am sitting there in a one legged mech with 28% armor left, one shot from death.

[Craig Steele]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

uhm yes it is. one player's stats out of the entire population is far from a good sample size...

4 screenshots is a good enough sample size for PGI though? (21/1)

Also, doesn't it say something that PGI are keeping PUG's and Pre mades in game together. It says to me the game is being pitched at the casual gamer, and thats the market they want. Whether its 4 friends having a drink and chatting on Skype or a solo dropper, get a a game and get them going. Thats the theory I see.

And personally I'm all for that. Lots of other games can incorporate small "socoal" teams and solo players with all have a solid experience.

Can the same tool appeal to a different market, absolutely (and it does)

I just don't see that "PUG's" or "Pre mades" are the core issue.

The core issue to is that they can't see the forest. To many trees to worry about and while they have picked their market, they're not providing the experience to retain it.

Edited by Craig Steele, 27 January 2014 - 05:48 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

1. Oddly enough I don't see it. I see it very rarely. Every time I drop in a premade, there's a premade on the other side

2. And again with the separate queues. You seem infatuated with that idea

3. Their stance on premades has been well documented. Straight from the devs. Check the posts. They're very pro-pug. They've stated it several times over the years.

4. No, no I didn't. Direct quotes are hard to "misinterpret"

5. No, condescending and sarcastic attitudes are what they are regardless of the reason behind them

6. That's usually what people say when they either jsut don't agree or can't come up with a good reason why those statements are disregarded but ok

Oh, and I'm STILL waiting for the example where the devs separated the queues. You have yet to provide ANY thing to show where that happened

I definitely don't have the time to troll that you seem to have. So you're going to win the argument by out trolling me and not via your biased opinions.

That being said if you check MM 1-2 the pre-mades where at least in part separated. Pre-mades of 5 or more didn't play against pugs. While the four mans did create rolls, most of the time game play was pug vs pug. And it worked fine.


While it worked fine for pugs it didn't work for the pre-mades. You can find thread after thread of eight mans deciding to break up into four mans and trying to sync drop. The devs actually commented on the issue at least three times that I can see.

[Sandpit]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

I definitely don't have the time to troll that you seem to have. So you're going to win the argument by out trolling me and not via your biased opinions.

That being said if you check MM 1-2 the pre-mades where at least in part separated. Pre-mades of 5 or more didn't play against pugs. While the four mans did create rolls, most of the time game play was pug vs pug. And it worked fine.


While it worked fine for pugs it didn't work for the pre-mades. You can find thread after thread of eight mans deciding to break up into four mans and trying to sync drop. The devs actually commented on the issue at least three times that I can see.

No, no it did not

It limited group size period. No separation of queues except for the 12mans.

[Ghogiel]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

No, no it did not

It limited group size period. No separation of queues except for the 12mans.

Actually yes. Yes it did. Prior to MM1 ALL premades were in the same queue. MM1 changed that and created the split the queue for 8man premades.