540 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Sandpit, on 01 February 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

Not to discount anything else you said but this was the most important part in my opinion. I've been saying this since CB. New players are the ones that should get the own queue. They should only be dropping against other "cadets" and be able to get comfortable with the game before they drop into a harder setting. I think this would go a loooooooooooong way to mitigating stomps and prevent new players from getting a bad taste in their mouths along with helping retention.

Yeah, it's not about stomps or not. It's about not being able to learn anything because the gap is too large. Even when my friend wins, if it's only happening because the matchmaker put some very strong players on his team who carried him to victory, then he doesn't learn and grow from it. Even if it ends up being a close game, that ends 12 to 6, and he is on the winning team, it only ended up that way because very strong players were able to carry the team. The *teams* taken as a whole might have been fairly evenly matched, but the gulf in skill and knowledge between individual players is too large.

There really should be different brackets...

[Sandpit]

Wispsy, on 01 February 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

According to PGI average difference between teams is 75-125. Even if the vast majority of games are so wild the change is only one point of change...does not matter...I mean we are talking at least 3000-5000 games here, if not more.


Edit: Also it has been noted on streams once or twice certain people hit cap. By IGP/PGI employees.

That's only 3-5000 more games to completely throw everything off. Look, I'm not disputing that sometimes I'm sure the absolute top tier 5-10% can figure out their general elo without knowing the exact number but being able to get into a decent ballpark.
That's 5-10% of the entire player population. That also doesn't take into account that top 2% guy dropping in a team with a new player to his unit to help him out and for training purposes.
Or that mediocre 3 that have a friend in that top % range
Or pugs who occasionally join up with premades.
Or players who drop pug once in a while
Or a player dropping in a few matches in a new mech with a new build going on a losing streak
Or the elo score for different weight classes

Point being that yes, a select few (very few) are going to have a good idea of their elo range and that will trickle down to even fewer who seem them in match once in a while and after that? Well after that you have total chaos and inaccuracy with trying to ascertain your elo score

Craig Steele, on 01 February 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

They definitely cater to the PUG imo, and so they should.

PUG to me = casual gamer looking for 2 - 6 hours of entertainment twice a week, that's the market that drops a few hundred bucks to "catch up" what the grinders / Pro's have got from "in game"

I can't fault PGI for catering to that demographic commercially.

I don't fault them for it, I was just pointing out that given previous track history, PGI caters to the pug demo a bit more than the hardcore, good or bad

[Wispsy]

Yes the vast majority could be anywhere at all, but that does not mean everybody is totally clueless!

I just like to be pedantic.

[Sandpit]

YueFei, on 01 February 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Yeah, it's not about stomps or not. It's about not being able to learn anything because the gap is too large. Even when my friend wins, if it's only happening because the matchmaker put some very strong players on his team who carried him to victory, then he doesn't learn and grow from it. Even if it ends up being a close game, that ends 12 to 6, and he is on the winning team, it only ended up that way because very strong players were able to carry the team. The *teams* taken as a whole might have been fairly evenly matched, but the gulf in skill and knowledge between individual players is too large.

There really should be different brackets...

I agree for the most part. Watching "better" players after you've died can help you. You can learn a lot of things like build types, weapon loadouts and grouping. I ask my teammates about their mechs a lot of times simply because I'm interested in how they do or how that loadout is on heat.

I've suggested since CB that they implement something along the lines of Soalris Training Academy and have all cadets have xx amount of drops before they "graduate" with their cadet bonus (They would only be allowed to drop in trial mechs but I would have the trial mech numbers bumped to 2 for each weight class) and allowed to buy their first mech.
I would also have it set up where cadets went through xx games in each mech weight class before they could graduate. This would make sure they had at least a little experience in every weight class to help them make a better, more informed, choice on their first mech purchase.
I'd also have "drill instructors" set up from within the community. The drill instructors would go through an application process and be screened and then have a board that reviews complaints from new players. The drill instructors would volunteer to drop xx hours per week in the cadet queues and in exchange for their time and helping the community they might get a cool cockpit item and maybe instead of earning cbills and regular xp they earn gen xp?

That would alleviate a LOT of the stomp issues and new players having a poor experience during their cadet bonus as well as helping retention when they aren't just dropped into games with "vets" who like to say "l2p noobz! suffer our elite skillz!" and vice versa vets wouldn't constantly complain about charlie lance not pulling its weight.

I do think that would help. A lot

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 01 February 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Same size of just the matches I had today: Pretty much stomps, either winning or losing.

"Fun"

My definition of stomp is pretty much 12-6 or worse (like 12-0), but the games don't feel challenging... you either await your fate or pound away. I guess that is my ELO level doing the work.

Many games that are stomps are around 12-6s.

The reason for this is while victory is all but assured because one team is stacked a premade of high Elo players and the other teams players just aren't able to deal with them.
The scrub PUGs on the team with the high Elo premade get rolled doing like 100dam while the high Elo premade ends the round with 3000dam and 8 kills between the 4 of them carrying the team to a win.

So while it looks close to the uninitiated at the end, at the beginning of the round the high Elo players have already checked the names on the other team and either know it's a 90% chance of victory or it'll be tight. (in the case of getting one or 2 of the other high elo 4mans on at that time)

Edited by Ghogiel, 02 February 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sorry, I pug only over 9000 matches.

A stomp is 12/2-12/0 in my book and even then some are just pure incompetence and leave nobody to blame but the losers. Saying a 12/6 0r 12/4 is a stomp is a joke and never taken seriously.

And yes 12/2 12/0 happen a lot when you pug. What makes it burn is when your mocked while being steam rolled and you get a bunch of GG at the end. That's not a good game, its a slaughter and reflects poorly on the winners character.
Then you come to the forum only to be mocked by the same dozen or so over and over this past year. Some of the smarter ones have softened their tone because they see critical mass catching up to them but look carefully though this thread and remember the names. Out on the field they are the ones you see getting perverse pleasure from steamrolling others.

PGI isn't stupid and sees this. They have alluded to it. Tide is changing and hopefully soon. They will leave the game killers and bull artists behind. It is inevitable.

[NextGame]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 February 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Sorry, I pug only over 9000 matches.

A stomp is 12/2-12/0 in my book and even then some are just pure incompetence and leave nobody to blame but the losers. Saying a 12/6 0r 12/4 is a stomp is a joke and never taken seriously.

And yes 12/2 12/0 happen a lot when you pug. What makes it burn is when your mocked while being steam rolled and you get a bunch of GG at the end. That's not a good game, its a slaughter and reflects poorly on the winners character.
Then you come to the forum only to be mocked by the same dozen or so over and over this past year. Some of the smarter ones have softened their tone because they see critical mass catching up to them but look carefully though this thread and remember the names. Out on the field they are the ones you see getting perverse pleasure from steamrolling others.

PGI isn't stupid and sees this. They have alluded to it. Tide is changing and hopefully soon. They will leave the game killers and bull artists behind. It is inevitable.

I will agree that it's very unsportsmanlike to say gg if you are on the winning team.

But in general, its up to the player to improve their game, not for everyone else to cater to their level, how many different ways do you want people to say it?

Edited by NextGame, 02 February 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[Craig Steele]

NextGame, on 02 February 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

I will agree that it's very unsportsmanlike to say gg if you are on the winning team.

But in general, its up to the player to improve their game, not for everyone else to cater to their level, how many different ways do you want people to say it?

Haven't we just come full circle now and saying "how do we learn if we're getting smashed'?

This thread is a vicious circle.

Yes all players most likely want to get better. Is throwing them with guys who know the map backwards, have better builds and finer skills helping them learn? Especially when they cannot replay their match to see where fire came from, or what maneuvers worked or didn't.

Some would argue there are much better conditions receptive to learning the game.

Of course there are several player, some who post here, who are truly exceptional and gifted people who learnt and adapted under the current offering, but not everyone is so blessed I guess.

[NextGame]

Craig Steele, on 02 February 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

Yes all players most likely want to get better. Is throwing them with guys who know the map backwards, have better builds and finer skills helping them learn? Especially when they cannot replay their match to see where fire came from, or what maneuvers worked or didn't.

Some would argue there are much better conditions receptive to learning the game.

I would actually really like a replay facility, aka Starsiege: Tribes (circa: 1998, i.e. technology from last century. Lostech I guess?). Where it should rank on the current extensive list of missing features is debateable.

1 thing though. If some players don't want to team up into groups, don't want to use teamspeak, don't want to type in mechspecs.com into a browser and pick a build for their mech that people reckon actually works etc. I have my doubts that they would make use of such a facility, because they aren't making use of the opportunities that are already available, which is partially why the circle goes round back to it being down to the player themselves.

Edited by NextGame, 02 February 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 February 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Sorry, I pug only over 9000 matches.

A stomp is 12/2-12/0 in my book and even then some are just pure incompetence and leave nobody to blame but the losers. Saying a 12/6 0r 12/4 is a stomp is a joke and never taken seriously.

And yes 12/2 12/0 happen a lot when you pug. What makes it burn is when your mocked while being steam rolled and you get a bunch of GG at the end. That's not a good game, its a slaughter and reflects poorly on the winners character.
Then you come to the forum only to be mocked by the same dozen or so over and over this past year. Some of the smarter ones have softened their tone because they see critical mass catching up to them but look carefully though this thread and remember the names. Out on the field they are the ones you see getting perverse pleasure from steamrolling others.

PGI isn't stupid and sees this. They have alluded to it. Tide is changing and hopefully soon. They will leave the game killers and bull artists behind. It is inevitable.

The steamroll can't start until alpha lance finally catches up to the few rambos that are suiciding.

Games are decided by the good players, not the 4 trial mechs in charlie lance that die with sub 100dam. Them dieing doesn't make the game any closer really, if it makes the other team feel better about losing I'm all for it.

Edited by Ghogiel, 02 February 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[wanderer]

I've always said "stomp" is when it's 12-4 or worse. It means your force was so scattered that you couldn't put three 'Mechs hitting one 'Mech and drop it. I'll apologize to the other team for the stomp- I won't say "GG", it wasn't a good game. It was either my side beating the tar out of you while you flailed around, or vice versa and we weren't a good game because we weren't even good opponents for you.

12-5 or 12-7 or so can just be plain bad luck or tonnage mismatch. When the scouts on your side run smack into Mr. Streaks and then catch an alpha running away, or you have a lance caught away from the rest and mashed in under a minute because their mediums ran into the 8 assaults the MM decided was a fair fight...but the rest of the team managed to shoot back, they were just plain overpowered but actually aimed and shot back like they were trying.

Anything 12-7 or better to me is "GG"- you know both sides put in effort, it wasn't a total mismatch, and luck happens. I can deal with anything better than 12-5 as a real game, but worse than that? It was a waste of a game, there was no competition and the matchmaker has failed at providing anything even close to a real fight.

Edited by wanderer, 02 February 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Holding in your farts]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 February 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Sorry, I pug only over 9000 matches.

A stomp is 12/2-12/0 in my book and even then some are just pure incompetence and leave nobody to blame but the losers. Saying a 12/6 0r 12/4 is a stomp is a joke and never taken seriously.

And yes 12/2 12/0 happen a lot when you pug. What makes it burn is when your mocked while being steam rolled and you get a bunch of GG at the end. That's not a good game, its a slaughter and reflects poorly on the winners character.
Then you come to the forum only to be mocked by the same dozen or so over and over this past year. Some of the smarter ones have softened their tone because they see critical mass catching up to them but look carefully though this thread and remember the names. Out on the field they are the ones you see getting perverse pleasure from steamrolling others.

PGI isn't stupid and sees this. They have alluded to it. Tide is changing and hopefully soon. They will leave the game killers and bull artists behind. It is inevitable.

I logged back in just to like this.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Wispsy, on 01 February 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

According to PGI average difference between teams is 75-125. Even if the vast majority of games are so wild the change is only one point of change...does not matter...I mean we are talking at least 3000-5000 games here, if not more.


Edit: Also it has been noted on streams once or twice certain people hit cap. By IGP/PGI employees.

The Elo system in MWO doesn't work that way. The counter only moves if you win or lose a game counter to what the MM thinks should happen. So if it predicts your team will win, and you lose, then you lose points.

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 February 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Sorry, I pug only over 9000 matches.

A stomp is 12/2-12/0 in my book and even then some are just pure incompetence and leave nobody to blame but the losers. Saying a 12/6 0r 12/4 is a stomp is a joke and never taken seriously.

And yes 12/2 12/0 happen a lot when you pug. What makes it burn is when your mocked while being steam rolled and you get a bunch of GG at the end. That's not a good game, its a slaughter and reflects poorly on the winners character.
Then you come to the forum only to be mocked by the same dozen or so over and over this past year. Some of the smarter ones have softened their tone because they see critical mass catching up to them but look carefully though this thread and remember the names. Out on the field they are the ones you see getting perverse pleasure from steamrolling others.

PGI isn't stupid and sees this. They have alluded to it. Tide is changing and hopefully soon. They will leave the game killers and bull artists behind. It is inevitable.

Yea because everyone who posts here, and is a member of an organized team, are ******** who gloat.

That's ******** and you guys know it. If it was a close game, or we came from behind to win etc, I say gg. Otherwise I don't say anything unless it's to counter some whiner talking trash. If see a really good shot, especially one that takes me out, I will congratulate the person.

Now that's just my personal take on the matter, but the DHB has a policy that is pretty similar. Gloating etc is against the rules. If we are involved in a stomp and won, we pretty much just walk away so as to avoid misunderstandings.

So don't lump all of us in with the douchebags. I don't like those people, and if they cross the line, I screenshot and report them. I joke that I start my support tickets with "It's me again!!" Hell, I've asked (no response) if they prefer one email with all the people, or separate emails for each report? So I am doing my part, are you guys?

[Sephlock]

A banana in the tailpipe, on 02 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I logged back in just to like this.

Is it really that bad to say GG when you win?

TBH for me it's a relfex to say it (from the old warcraft days).

[Gruinhardt]

Sandpit, on 02 February 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

I would also have it set up where cadets went through xx games in each mech weight class before they could graduate. This would make sure they had at least a little experience in every weight class to help them make a better, more informed, choice on their first mech purchase.

I argued for this a year ago. Now, I don't know. I just don't think there are enough cadets to fill a 8v8, or a 12v12. It would have been great at OB or launch.

It would also need a way of keeping d-bag veterans with new alt accounts, from going in and blasting for ***** and giggles.

[Wispsy]

Nick Makiaveli, on 02 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

The Elo system in MWO doesn't work that way. The counter only moves if you win or lose a game counter to what the MM thinks should happen. So if it predicts your team will win, and you lose, then you lose points.

I believe you are incorrect, I cannot believe anybody would make an Elo system like that and I am quite sure PGI has said otherwise.

If it predicts you will win, you win a smaller amount. If it predicts that you will lose then it will give you more points if you win. This is relative to the difference in Elo score. Example:

1500win vs 1500 +15 points
1400win vs 1500 +20 points
1600win vs 1500 +10 points

and vice versa.

If teams are matched say 2700win vs 2300 +1 point.

Edited by Wispsy, 02 February 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[wanderer]

Sephlock, on 02 February 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Is it really that bad to say GG when you win?

TBH for me it's a relfex to say it (from the old warcraft days).

It is when you've just rolled the opponent by a huge margin.

At that point, "GG" turns into sarcasm- you're saying that the other side was being good- at rolling over and being your target practice, not as opponents.

[Sephlock]

wanderer, on 02 February 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

It is when you've just rolled the opponent by a huge margin.

At that point, "GG" turns into sarcasm- you're saying that the other side was being good- at rolling over and being your target practice, not as opponents.

Is it really that different from what they make kids do at the end of soccer games (or baseball games)?

[xhrit]

Sephlock, on 02 February 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Is it really that different from what they make kids do at the end of soccer games (or baseball games)?

I say gg after every game. Excpet for games where people start complaining. Then I say cry harder, nub.

[Craig Steele]

Sephlock, on 02 February 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Is it really that bad to say GG when you win?

TBH for me it's a relfex to say it (from the old warcraft days).

I always thought the convention was the loser says GG first if they want to congratulate the winner on a job well done.

If the winner jumps in first it's a bit of poor sportsmanship imo.

If I lost, I already know my team (including me) didn't play well enough to win.