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Isnt it Davion Tactics 101...


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#21 Hykelion

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM

View Postrilianv, on 18 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

to take a 25 ton mech against a mech 3-4 times its weight while enjoying a 3 to 1 advantage over your enemies

More like take a medium or heavy mech (Enforcer being a favored trooper mech for Davions since before 3025) with support and fight like you're a member of a team rather than some Solaris jock just out to show himself off. And even then, the favored mech of one of the setting's top Solaris pilots is a customized Centurion.

Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.

#22 Atomfire

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:49 PM

View PostHykelion, on 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

More like take a medium or heavy mech (Enforcer being a favored trooper mech for Davions since before 3025) with support and fight like you're a member of a team rather than some Solaris jock just out to show himself off. And even then, the favored mech of one of the setting's top Solaris pilots is a customized Centurion.

Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.

Quoted for truth.

#23 Codius Dakanius

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 01:00 PM

The Centurion is my pick of the initial mechs. And there is no such thing as a bad mech. just bad pilots, mostly Cappies, and dice rolls.

#24 Ettibber

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:24 PM

View Postrilianv, on 18 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

to take a 25 ton mech against a mech 3-4 times its weight while enjoying a 3 to 1 advantage over your enemies

...no davion tactics involve all sorts of deus ex machina to stop the capellans from kicking your tails back to New Avalon.

#25 Lupine

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:42 AM

View PostHykelion, on 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:


Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.


^ I might steal that for my siggy

#26 Dark Puppy

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 01:33 PM

View PostEttibber, on 20 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

...no davion tactics involve all sorts of deus ex machina to stop the capellans from kicking your tails back to New Avalon.


Considering the Laio need the Civil War to really cause the Fed Suns problems, oh and the the WoB. The Laio warriors make due with what they have and do good with it. However their training isn't up to snuff when facing Davion units. The Capellen armed forces has a doctrine that requires their intel people or Death Commandoes to conduct operations to disrupt forces right before their troops invade. If that fails they lose. Even when it succeds they don't always win.

#27 Tannim78

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:35 PM

Posted ImageHykelion, on 20 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

More like take a medium or heavy mech (Enforcer being a favored trooper mech for Davions since before 3025) with support and fight like you're a member of a team rather than some Solaris jock just out to show himself off. And even then, the favored mech of one of the setting's top Solaris pilots is a customized Centurion.

Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.
So VERY true there.

Edited by Tannim78, 25 June 2012 - 12:35 PM.


#28 Alizabeth Aijou

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostBattlecruiser, on 18 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

not sure I understand what you're trying to say

I think he's trying to say "author fiat".

#29 Jarek Kalen

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:21 AM

View PostHykelion, on 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.


Both are true, so very true.

#30 MogCarns

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:59 AM

From the other point of view, Davion tactics are "dirty".

The Capellans had a unit of Assault mechs that were flawed in design. Davion attacked them with Light mechs and defeated them because the unit did not fight together, did not support each other, and was totally incapable of dealing with close in targets. One side sees tactical superiority... the other sees deception and a refusal to meet in open combat.

The same light Mech force then made use of a minefield and ambush to defeat a force of Marauders. One side sees superior positioning and planning, the other sees, again, deception and cowardice.

Davion tactics are a combination of superior planning, proper leverage, the use of force multipliers, and a reputation of good treatment of POWs. In doing so, a Davion commander can seize the initiative in battle, or allow the enemy to make a mistake. The Davion force will be in position to capitalize, providing an initial break in the enemy forces. Some members of the suddenly outgunned enemy will surrender, creating a self sustaining chain reaction.

This tactic set is extremely effective with the mostly conscript Capellan forces, but less effective when facing fanatical Capellans and Kurita Samurai. However, this is offset by the fanatical Capellans rapidly becoming outnumbered, and the Samurai are less effective at stopping the Lyran "Crush-Advance" steamroller strategy.



And everyone knows Stackpole is on the only reason we even care about the Battletech fiction. Don't run off spouting that "too cool for Stackpole" rhetoric.

Edited by MogCarns, 26 June 2012 - 05:00 AM.


#31 Alizabeth Aijou

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:54 AM

Quote

Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?)

Heh, even so, we've nearly conquered the FedSuns during the First Succession War.
AND we've managed to fool Hanse into thinking we've had a far stronger military than we actually had.
AND it took Hanse a decade to find out about it.
AND in the next 10 year we'll be churning out around 50 new 'Mechs/Variants, including the first Inner Sphere OmniMechs.
Besides - we got a NAIS of ourselves. :wub:

#32 Hykelion

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 08:22 AM

View PostAlizabeth Aijou, on 26 June 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Heh, even so, we've nearly conquered the FedSuns during the First Succession War.
AND we've managed to fool Hanse into thinking we've had a far stronger military than we actually had.
AND it took Hanse a decade to find out about it.
AND in the next 10 year we'll be churning out around 50 new 'Mechs/Variants, including the first Inner Sphere OmniMechs.
Besides - we got a NAIS of ourselves. B)

Hey, I have a lot of respect for the Draconis Combine. Unfortunately, that respect doesn't go down to your mechs outside of a few that are more a result of the Clan Invasion finally giving you guys some examples of what you're supposed to do. This isn't your tech guys' fault, its a problem with the Drac culture. The Dracs sat on C3 instead of realizing how amazing it is due to your mechwarriors being a bunch of stuck-up, honor-obsessed pricks. Hell, you won't even try proper melee weapons until your scientists figure out how to make a full-scale katana because the hatchet is 'too barbaric'. The Draconis Combine specifically uses worse mechs than they are capable of producing, and that's what led to my assessment.

Remember, the Dracs only survive the Clan Invasion due to mercenaries sent by Davion.

#33 rilianv

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 08:31 AM

maybe they thought using inferior mechs meant higher honor

#34 Alizabeth Aijou

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 08:32 AM

Erm...
DRG-5K?
HTM-27U?

Quote

Remember, the Dracs only survive the Clan Invasion due to mercenaries sent by Davion.

Sorry, but that honour goes to C* imo.

Quote

This isn't your tech guys' fault, its a problem with the Drac culture. The Dracs sat on C3 instead of realizing how amazing it is due to your mechwarriors being a bunch of stuck-up, honor-obsessed pricks. Hell, you won't even try proper melee weapons until your scientists figure out how to make a full-scale katana because the hatchet is 'too barbaric'. The Draconis Combine specifically uses worse mechs than they are capable of producing, and that's what led to my assessment.

Yes, well, sorry for not having the writers on our side, unlike the whole Davion Fiat we've been having until somewhere in the 90s.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 26 June 2012 - 08:34 AM.


#35 Reoh

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostKasiagora, on 18 June 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

But Steiner tactics would be to have brought 3 Atlases to begin with.


I really feel there should also have been some comment about how they murdered your parents, killed babies, and kicked puppies or something too.

#36 Avtama

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:33 PM

View PostAlizabeth Aijou, on 26 June 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Heh, even so, we've nearly conquered the FedSuns during the First Succession War.
AND we've managed to fool Hanse into thinking we've had a far stronger military than we actually had.
AND it took Hanse a decade to find out about it.
AND in the next 10 year we'll be churning out around 50 new 'Mechs/Variants, including the first Inner Sphere OmniMechs.
Besides - we got a NAIS of ourselves. :P


Two words: Kentares, booooo!

;)

Edited by Avtama, 26 June 2012 - 12:33 PM.


#37 Skyefox

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:11 AM

A Davion light Mech would most certainly challenge a Mech 2-3 times heavier than itself, knowing full well that lancemates, armor, artillery, and infantry are at its disposal for support. Combined arms operations are the key to FedSun victories.

#38 Beazle

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:19 AM

View PostSkyefox, on 27 June 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

A Davion light Mech would most certainly challenge a Mech 2-3 times heavier than itself, knowing full well that lancemates, armor, artillery, and infantry are at its disposal for support. Combined arms operations are the key to FedSun victories.


Stackpole writing is the key to your victories. (not saying it's bad writing, but lets face it)

Combined arms units fell out of use hundreds of years ago because armies no longer had the transport capacity to take all those tanks and troopers along. Remember Jumpships are far less common than everybody would like, and transport availability is one of the major bottlenecks for waging war.

They wanted a major war to shake things up (to sell more product) so they needed something that would shift the balance of power, breaking the dull stalemate that existed previous to the fourth succession war.

So the Davion "geniuses" reinvented a concept that been around since the middle ages (even the romans combined mounted and foot troops with siege weapons for support), then the writers waved their magic wands and made all transport related issues disappear so that this amazing new strategy could break the stalemate, hand the Davions the victory, and sell a bunch of books.

Seriously, anybody who has ever done ANYTHING with logistics should have a decent concept of how horrible the idea of RCT's in BT are. IF you have enough transports to bring that many tanks and troops, you should really just bring MORE MECHS, since they are, pound for pound, a better choice for assaults.

Do the math, even if you figure 4 support troops per mech (giving you a total of 5 per pilot) you've got less than 600 people that you need to supply with food, water, and medical care per regiment compared to OVER 3000 for an infantry regiment in just TROOPS ALONE.

Similar logic can be applied to vehicle regiments. (unless they run on Fusion, which is kinda dumb since Fusion plants were listed as one of the major bottlenecks in Mech production) A vehicle crew might consist of 3-5 people compared to a Mechs single pilot. Add to that the need to worry about vehicle fuel (you know how much fuel a tank can burn in 1 day? and how much that weighs???) since no general with a brain will count on being able to capture it, and you've got a much larger total payload per combat ton for vehicles than Mechs. So while the vehicle is cheaper to build per ton, it's more expensive to transport per ton, and less effective per ton.

Seriously, i can understand the logic in bringing limited numbers of foot troops along. There will always be things that a person with a rifle can do that can't be done by anything bigger, but there is practically nothing that a vehicle can do that a Mech cannot.

So, in addition to using a magic wand to make all transport issues disappear, they also came up with some serious Captain Planet hippie junk that caused Infantry, Vehicles, and Mechs to magically become more effective if they combined their powers.

(The one caveat I'll add is VTOLs, they have a very valid place in Mech units.)

All of this was done, not because it actually makes sense to anybody who really knows anything, but because is was needed to be done to move the time line along.

Now, I'm not complaining this was done. I read the novels. I enjoy the novels. I practice a little thing called "suspended disbelief" when I read them, same as when I watch any Sci-Fi or Horror stuff.

However, to brag that the RCT is some sort of brilliant genius level stuff is idiocy at best and lunacy at worst.

#39 Qin

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:03 AM

The idea to bring more mechs is good, but... you need to have those available. You only have so much you can throw around. You still need to guard the rest of your planets.

Tanks are cheaper to make, less training for crew, and a couple of tanks can still make it very bad day for a mech.

If you want to hold on to a planet your going to need troops anyways. To keep the bases of the mechs and armor safe so they can dismount and get some sleep and decent food, to hold important buildings, and cities etc. During a raid thats not going to matter a lot, thats more of a in and out mission. But if you want to really take a planent you better have some troopers around to hold what you want.

#40 Skyefox

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:08 AM

Beazle I'm quite aware of the logistics. As you said, Jumpships are by no means common, and to a lesser extent, neither are DropShips. If you have 4 Dropships but only 2 can carry Mechs, would you really not take the other two simply because they won't carry your best weapons.

You can't win with just Mechs. You need infantry to control built up areas, and get into all those hard to reach spots that Mechs just don't fit.
There will always be infantry, simply because they are the most numerous, the fastest trained, and the easiest to arm. Training a MechWarrior takes years and is a huge investment for EACH ONE. Infantry can be trained in a matter of months, have the easiest supply chain to maintain (food and water, found mostly everywhere you'd be waging a war, small arms ammunition)and are necessary to the success of any campaign.

Vehicles fit the role that infantry are too light for and Mechs are too valuable for. The slowest hovertank is still as fast as you standard light Mech, and cost (including maintenance and training) are much lower. In a harsher view, vehicles can also be seen as mildly expendable because losing a lance of Goblins will hit your bottom line much less severely than losing a medium lance. Vehicle crews can also be trained much quicker, along with their mechanics and engineers (where those ICE engines you were quick to point out could be repaired/replaced much quicker than a fusion engine). I'd be willing to bet there would be more fuel depots on Random Invasion Location than there would be fusion engine repair specialists. In other words, they're cheaper, more plentiful, and while not as flexible as infantry or as powerful as Mechs, a column of armor is still a weapon on the battlefield that an enemy has to account for.

Aerospace assets IMO have the same worth as a BattleMech. I wouldn't feel comfortable attacking or defending without some sort of aero asset.

Also, when you say "Combined arms is a strategy that fell out of use hundreds of years ago" I'm hoping you're referring to the BattleTech timeline and not today, having spent 6 years in a BCT and deploying in a mixed unit of Infantry, Tanks, Engineers, Logistic/Medical personnel, and Artillery.





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