97 replies to this topic

[Bloodyscalphunter]

When I saw this map i was excited, "finally a map in space". But once I played it I was very disappointed in the environments physics. So lets figure out where they went wrong.[/color]

]First, the fact that this map has an almost non existant atmosphere. This is highlighted by the fact that sounds are muffled by the lack of said atmosphere. Sound needs molucules to bounce off of to produce sounds. With such a extreemly thin atmosphere our laser and PPC weapons should have extended ranges. With no atmosphere for the energy to blead off into or be distorted, energy weapons will go on until gravity forces the energy into the ground. Also with a thin atmosphere heat would dissipate at a faster rate since an atmosphere holds in heat.[/color]

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet. Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense. Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.[/color]

Finally there is the gravity. Moons with little to no atmosphere are smaller moons. With not enough gravitational hold to keep an atmosphere. Our moon’s gravity is 1/6 that of Earths gravity. As such our mechs would fall slower and have almost no damage associated with falling. Also ballistic weapons ranges should be increased to such a degree that they most likely would be able to reach escape velocity from a straight line. Also our mechs speed should also see a increase. With less gravity pushing down on our mechs we should be able to go faster than in an environment with a increased gravity.[/color]

All in all the physics on this map make no sense with what we see. Hopefully PGI will change some of this to make it a little more realistic.[/color]

Edited by Bloodyscalphunter, 17 December 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Soon

[Zakie Chan]

Ur sloppy.

They have enough on their plate figuring out cw, ui2.0 and dx11. They dont have time or man power to figure out how to tweak engine physics and how the mechs would be animated to move in the gravity.

Id allow them the easy out there.

New map is gorgeous. The map team really did nice work modelling it. Multilevel combat is very refreshing and what the game needed. Also the map is HUGE. Another great thing to see because maps like forest colony are much to small and linear for interesting battles.

New sounds are sweet.

[Funkin Disher]

I think you're confusing game physics with poor map design.

Edited by Kane0, 17 December 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Sug]

Yeah I was expecting to jump further and higher. Or be killed instantly when my cockpit gets breached.

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet. Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense. Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.

The heat does feel kinda off, maybe we're further from the closest star than our moon is so it's colder in the light. Though if there was little or no atmosphere our heatsinks wouldn't work at all.

Edited by Sug, 17 December 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

SPACE MAGIC DAMN YOU!!!!!

Science has no place in battletech or mechwarrior hocus pocus!

[oldradagast]

I like the new map, but if you're going to grumble about "real world" stuff, at least get that right:

- Habitable can mean a lot of things. Mars, for example, could be inhabited, though you'd die without an air supply and probably a form of space suit. Venus, however, would kill you nearly instantly and melt your space suit, making it completely uninhabitable without force-fields and other extreme sci-fi technology. And note that while Mars technically DOES have an atmosphere, sound wouldn't travel well in it.

- Moons can be as large as planets, which is true even in our own star system. The largest moons are actually larger than the smallest planets. So, there's nothing preventing a "moon" around a gas giant in a distant star system from having even more than 1 earth mass, though it would probably be around a gas giant much larger than Jupiter.

- I, for one, like the muffled sounds. It's reasonably realistic and, interestingly, makes weapons without screen shake have a sort of "stealth attack" if folks don't pay attention to where they are being hit.

Edited by oldradagast, 17 December 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Sug]

That's no moon....

[Blue Hymn]

Sug, on 17 December 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

That's no moon....

It's a TRAP!

[Sir Wulfrick]

Holy surrats, some people just can't be happy can they?

Art design - very nice.
Layout - more complex than previous maps, very nice.

Generally a very nice addition to the MWO maps and something quite different. Personally I think they did a good job.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Big nuclear-powered robots driven by warring members of an advanced space-faring civilization doesn't seem odd to you, but the moon possibly being the wrong temperature DOES? The facility could be right on a barrier between the day and night sides, which makes perfect sense if you realize that the facility was probably put in the mildest possible location temperature-wise to make heating and cooling the living areas and sensitive equipment as cost-effective as possible. The devs said they wouldn't be messing with the gravity because of coding issues, and the fact that a Spider with jump jets could achieve orbit if it were very reduced. Also, the size of the planet/moon is not known, so it could be earth-normal for all we know. Moons range quite a bit in size in the real world. And with regards to weapon ranges being changed, that would break the game if suddenly everything could retain maximum damage at any distance, and if gravity is possibly correct as I pointed out above, then the only thing getting a noticeable range increase would be lasers, as the thin atmosphere would allow them to travel much farther, while gravity would pull ballistics down about as fast as ever. And as for it being a moon due to low atmosphere, Mars lost most of it's atmosphere, but it is nearly as big as the earth. Not all earth-sized planets/moons have atmospheres. So really, all you can complain about with certainty is an increase in laser range and a very slight ballistics range increase. And while we are on lasers, they wouldn't be able to be seen as brightly colored bars in the real world, so they are not accurate to the known physical behaviors of lasers in the real world anyway. Just enjoy the pretty colors and the gameplay, and if you want an absolutely accurate-to-physics game to play, go shoot some basketball or something.

Oh, and by the way, I loved the map. It plays great and isn't another giant and unpleasant walk-fest like Alpine or TT, and has some cool sound-effects and a very unique and interesting feel to it.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 17 December 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Artgathan]

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

First, the fact that this map has an almost non existant atmosphere. This is highlighted by the fact that sounds are muffled by the lack of said atmosphere. Sound needs molucules to bounce off of to produce sounds. With such a extreemly thin atmosphere our laser and PPC weapons should have extended ranges. With no atmosphere for the energy to blead off into or be distorted, energy weapons will go on until gravity forces the energy into the ground. Also with a thin atmosphere heat would dissipate at a faster rate since an atmosphere holds in heat.[/color]

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet. Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense. Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.

Finally there is the gravity. Moons with little to no atmosphere are smaller moons. With not enough gravitational hold to keep an atmosphere. Our moon’s gravity is 1/6 that of Earths gravity. As such our mechs would fall slower and have almost no damage associated with falling. Also ballistic weapons ranges should be increased to such a degree that they most likely would be able to reach escape velocity from a straight line. Also our mechs speed should also see a increase. With less gravity pushing down on our mechs we should be able to go faster than in an environment with a increased gravity.[/color]

Just going to throw this out there, but due to the nature of how heat sinks "work" they would actually perform sub-optimally in a vacuum. BT heat sinks work by transferring heated particles circulating in the battlemech's coolant system to external particles in the surrounding environment. In a vacuum there are few particles in the external environment, thus inhibiting the mech's ability to dissipate heat.

Secondly, moons can have gravity. The only difference between a planet and a moon is deciding which is orbiting which. This can allow for fairly large moons (which could posses the gravity of HPG Manifold).

As for the increased energy ranges... Well yes, they should work like that. But do you really want to encourage the PPC meta?

[Bloodyscalphunter]

oldradagast, on 17 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I like the new map, but if you're going to grumble about "real world" stuff, at least get that right: - Habitable can mean a lot of things. Mars, for example, could be inhabited, though you'd die without an air supply and probably a form of space suit. Venus, however, would kill you nearly instantly and melt your space suit, making it completely uninhabitable without force-fields and other extreme sci-fi technology. And note that while Mars technically DOES have an atmosphere, sound wouldn't travel well in it. - Moons can be as large as planets, which is true even in our own star system. The largest moons are actually larger than the smallest planets. So, there's nothing preventing a "moon" around a gas giant in a distant star system from having even more than 1 earth mass, though it would probably be around a gas giant much larger than Jupiter. - I, for one, like the muffled sounds. It's reasonably realistic and, interestingly, makes weapons without screen shake have a sort of "stealth attack" if folks don't pay attention to where they are being hit.

To your point about the size of moons, yes their are larger moons and those have atmospheres, The reason for this is that size is what determines gravity. Our moon is 1/4 our size and has 1/6 our gravity. It's apmosphere is 1,000,000 molucules per cubic centimeter. PGI says this map has 25,000-75,000 atoms per cubic centimeter. I think they meant molucules. So this map has a atmosphere far thinner then the moon. The larger moons in our solar system have atmospheres because they are larger, have higher gravity, hence a atmosphere.

And as for sound traveling through Mar's atmosphere. Sound needs a medium to travel through. Density of the material effects how far the sound will travel; gas-liquid-solid. May not travel as far as it would on Earth but would still travel far.

[Phoenix Branson]

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

When I saw this map i was excited, "finally a map in space". But once I played it I was very disappointed in the environments physics. So lets figure out where they went wrong.[/color]

]First, the fact that this map has an almost non existant atmosphere. This is highlighted by the fact that sounds are muffled by the lack of said atmosphere. Sound needs molucules to bounce off of to produce sounds. With such a extreemly thin atmosphere our laser and PPC weapons should have extended ranges. With no atmosphere for the energy to blead off into or be distorted, energy weapons will go on until gravity forces the energy into the ground. Also with a thin atmosphere heat would dissipate at a faster rate since an atmosphere holds in heat.[/color]

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet. Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense. Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.[/color]

Finally there is the gravity. Moons with little to no atmosphere are smaller moons. With not enough gravitational hold to keep an atmosphere. Our moon’s gravity is 1/6 that of Earths gravity. As such our mechs would fall slower and have almost no damage associated with falling. Also ballistic weapons ranges should be increased to such a degree that they most likely would be able to reach escape velocity from a straight line. Also our mechs speed should also see a increase. With less gravity pushing down on our mechs we should be able to go faster than in an environment with a increased gravity.[/color]

All in all the physics on this map make no sense with what we see. Hopefully PGI will change some of this to make it a little more realistic.[/color]

This forum has alot of Negative Nancy's.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

You realize that heat sinks don't radiate very well. They rely on atmospheric convection. Lacking an atmosphere the heat sinks can only cool via radiation, which is a very slow process. Be thankful that PGI didn't implement that for this map.

Atmosphere doesn't rely solely on gravity, it relies on a many things, not least of which is a magnetic field. Mars, for instance, has a very thin atmosphere, far thinner than it should based on its gravity. The lack of a magnetic field is what let the solar winds strip the atmosphere away.


As for energy weapon range, the most likely explanation is that changing core weapon stats for map-specific effects would consume too many resources to be practicable.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 17 December 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[Ryvucz]

Woah, I had no idea we were playing a game based off of real life physics.

That just means, the entire game sucks because none of it makes any since.

I mean, the reactor cores for one.

And how ammo is loaded and easily dispensed.

This is, oh, this just makes me mad that things aren't the way they should be!

[Sandpit]

I like the map. It's the first one I've played that actually gives me a sense of scale. Now if they'd just fix it so that I can play without crashing

[Bloodyscalphunter]

Artgathan, on 17 December 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Just going to throw this out there, but due to the nature of how heat sinks "work" they would actually perform sub-optimally in a vacuum. BT heat sinks work by transferring heated particles circulating in the battlemech's coolant system to external particles in the surrounding environment. In a vacuum there are few particles in the external environment, thus inhibiting the mech's ability to dissipate heat.

Secondly, moons can have gravity. The only difference between a planet and a moon is deciding which is orbiting which. This can allow for fairly large moons (which could posses the gravity of HPG Manifold).

As for the increased energy ranges... Well yes, they should work like that. But do you really want to encourage the PPC meta?

On the heat sinks in a vacumm. Heat Sinks work like radiators on a PC. Heat is tranfered to the radiators. In space which is extreamly cold heat would be rapidly removed from the radiator due to this effect. It's why heat sinks work better in a freezing environmentvs a hot environment. A vacuum creates cold, that helps cooling.

[Sug]

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

In space which is extremely cold heat would be rapidly removed from the radiator.

No.

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

A vacuum creates cold, that helps cooling.

No.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

This game was originally billed as a mechwarrior SIMULATOR. Not Mechassault 2013.

If both PGI and its customers are satisfied with this map as currently presented, then this game is doomed to wallow in mediocrity forever.

I will say, they did good work with the sounds.