147 replies to this topic

[Serpieri]

Increase JJ shake - its supposed to be hard to make a shot when jumping. Also JJ's use needs to increase heat on the battlemech and the amount of JJ's need to matter. It must also be tied to the engine just like in battletech.

[WarZ]

I absolutely love how the people who defend poptarting, DO NOT actually address or even respond to the reasons that make it so powerful !!!

The only element they continually defend is the "skill" element. However that is only a SMALL part of the issue. And they are wrong. The skill element is not some super hard to develop ability as they pretend. Its pretty darn straight forward, and as noted easier to do than it is to brawl. Come the F on ... really ? Thats your big defense ?

How about you actually address / comment on the issues that actually make it a problem ???

Oh wait, you cant !

So f'ing funny to watching you guys flail around, not actually defending what you are so vehemently defending. Fact is you know as well as everyone else its broken, but you want to keep your BROKEN tactic.

BROKEN.

Edited by WarZ, 30 January 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 January 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

But then the QQ will rise to big levels and PGI will have to nurf it again.

Did you see the new anti-missile module?

I'm trying to remember when LRMS where a problem.

Missiles were used to kill me along with Lasers and ACs yesterday. They are a problem right there with the ACs an Lasers!

[PYR0MANCER]

SilentWolff, on 30 January 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

My point is people will cry at whatever the meta is. So if they nerf jump sniping into oblivion, whatever the new meta is, will have people crying on the forums about that.

And people altered the servers back then cause they didnt have the skill to compete. 14 years later I'm watching history repeat itself. Same BS arguments from peeps that cant compete. Nothing new to see here, time to move along.

So what you are saying is that the only real skill in the game is to get one of two mechs with one of three loadouts..?


That doesn't sound like skill, that sounds like a build...


A build that takes no more skill than holding spacebar then releasing, aiming, and firing... Accompanied with communication by four or more people, going against people who might not be able to talk at all between any of them...


Now, that communication and knowing when and where to push does require an amount of skill that some don't have and that's where you see the build fail, because it's the operator failing the build. Along with the fact that most pugs are alone in the build without 3-7+ other buddies that spend all day synch dropping with each other in order to make it even easier on themselves...


There is meta, and there is taking advantage of a broken meta...


I think most of us know what the case is here...

[Black Arachne]

It seems a lot of issues I'm seeing here in game and on boards is that PGI strayed away from Battletech. In Battletech, you can only have as many jj's = to your walking speed. Jumping and firing added a heavy modifier to hit roll. Jumping in Battletech was used for death from above, clearing obstacles, getting to higher elevation, and getting behind your enemy. Jump Jets also increased a Battlemech's heat.

Once all this is place - your so called snipers will need larger engines to carry more JJ's, when JJ's are engage their should be heavy screen shake (why do you think the mechwarriors have to strap into their seats for), and heat needs to increase when JJ's are in use. Currently, there is no drawback to using JJ's and why can't other mechs add them. It's as simple as taking your mech to the bay and have them added. Heck, you can even put JJ backpacks on them.

[wanderer]

Quote

Missiles were used to kill me along with Lasers and ACs yesterday. They are a problem right there with the ACs an Lasers!

Perhaps the walking in a slow assault with no cover might have had something to do with being mowed down like winter wheat.

[Trauglodyte]

Poptarting isn't so much an issue. Hiding behind cover and taking shots when available is the basis of all combat since the dawn of projectiles. Who wants to honestly stand out in the open and take damage when you can take no damage and hurt someone? Think about that for a second.

Seriously, the whole issue comes down to how JJs have been implemented. People whined back in Closed Beta when it took much longer for JJs to be effective. The irony of it back then was that one JJ was equal to the max that your chassis could carry. But, PGI fixed it and JJs were made to be better. Now, you've got 3.25s to jump the distance necessary (about 5m per second) and 3.25s to recharge. This means that they sync up beautifully with all of the heavy front loaded weapons in game. Furthermore, only Lights take falling damage which means that the Heavies and Assaults that are doing it lose nothing.

Focus on the problem and the not the symptom or application of the problem.

[Coralld]

Trauglodyte, on 31 January 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Poptarting isn't so much an issue. Hiding behind cover and taking shots when available is the basis of all combat since the dawn of projectiles. Who wants to honestly stand out in the open and take damage when you can take no damage and hurt someone? Think about that for a second.

Seriously, the whole issue comes down to how JJs have been implemented. People whined back in Closed Beta when it took much longer for JJs to be effective. The irony of it back then was that one JJ was equal to the max that your chassis could carry. But, PGI fixed it and JJs were made to be better. Now, you've got 3.25s to jump the distance necessary (about 5m per second) and 3.25s to recharge. This means that they sync up beautifully with all of the heavy front loaded weapons in game. Furthermore, only Lights take falling damage which means that the Heavies and Assaults that are doing it lose nothing.

Focus on the problem and the not the symptom or application of the problem.

First thing however is that this is a video game and not real life, but I understand what you are getting at.
Secondly, not all mechs can mount JJs, in fact most don't which is horrible game balance wise if there is no downside to JJs.
Thirdly, the proposed balance suggestion by making it so that when using JJs you get a targeting penalty as well as other balance features comes straight out of the TT rule book and were put in there for a reason.
Fourth thing is that allowing the poptarting to be the meta makes for very stale and very boring game play.

Now I agree that Lights should have their falling rescaled and might I even say flip flopped with Heavies and Assaults where its easier for Heavies and Assaults to take leg damage from falls and not Lights.

Edited by Coralld, 31 January 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 31 January 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Furthermore, only Lights take falling damage which means that the Heavies and Assaults that are doing it lose nothing.

The fun thing about that was that it predates "pebbles of steel" and the movement code. Man, those rocks did chew up the lights just "swell".

Edited by Deathlike, 31 January 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[Krujiente]

Welp. My thread got hijacked by nothing but crybabies and apologists immediately out the gate. This makes me sad.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

cSand, on 28 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

I love poptarts.. they're so kind for constantly popping up and presenting a nice floating target

I just love them because they pop up and their insides are gooey and warm... Oh... Not those pop tarts?

[Joseph Mallan]

Krujiente, on 28 January 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I don't hate pop-tarts, some mechs are pretty much made to pop-tart. Take the BJ-1 and 3: great mechs, designed for jumping to high places and popping off rounds, sometimes to deal with the fact you're 45 tons and usually pretty slow for a medium sometimes pop-tarting would be a necessary thing. The Urban mech if it was in the game would be pop-tartastic at times, that small profile and that big gun along with a slow movement speed does not make for a fun time in the open. That said: all these mechs suffer compared to larger pop-tarts because all those pop-tarts have GIANT arms that can block damage. Its very dangerous to load an XL engine into something that has no arms, just guns while Victors (which for table top purposes are using their jumpjets to get close and unload the brawl-pocolypse out of nowhere, not use the jumpjets to cower behind cover and pop off huge chunks of hate) do it constantly because they can turn on a dime using their JJs to block damage on their arms. This helps them prevent damage to their XL while in a brawl while still letting them be very effective pop-tarts. I do hope if they make any changes to discourage pop-tarting it doesn't hurt the blackjack or anything else with swivel arms that can't take MAXIMUM effectiveness of giant arms, huge guns and quick swiveling to not only avoid damage at long range, but absorb it at close range

Krujiente, on 01 February 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Welp. My thread got hijacked by nothing but crybabies and apologists immediately out the gate. This makes me sad.

I don't know your OP does sound kinda whiny cause some Mechs can Pop tart better than others. You disparage tactics you do not like, and rant against perks that are part of a chassis (Big well armored Arms).

Pop Tarting is a hot button issue and to expect it to not be emotion charged was a mistake I think.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

First thing however is that this is a video game and not real life, but I understand what you are getting at.
Secondly, not all mechs can mount JJs, in fact most don't which is horrible game balance wise if there is no downside to JJs.
Thirdly, the proposed balance suggestion by making it so that when using JJs you get a targeting penalty as well as other balance features comes straight out of the TT rule book and were put in there for a reason.
Fourth thing is that allowing the poptarting to be the meta makes for very stale and very boring game play.

Now I agree that Lights should have their falling rescaled and might I even say flip flopped with Heavies and Assaults where its easier for Heavies and Assaults to take leg damage from falls and not Lights.

I get everything that you're saying. My primary mech in game and my 3rd favorite mech all time, behind the Warhammer and Cyclops, is the Cicada. Now, you tell me how much fun it is running that thing knowing that I'm limited in everything that I can do because I don't have JJs. I look at Jenners, especially bad *** pilots like Hammerborne, Death, DrxAbstract, etc and then look at what I can do, which isn't bad, and it just ****** me off. My absolute best mech hands down is my meta Victor and that ****** me off. The point that I was trying to make, and have made in several other threads on this discussion, is that it isn't so much poptarting that is the problem but rather a symptom of the power of JJs. The biggest kicker, beyond their power, is that there is not balanced, and I know that word is scary here, equation as to what the JJ is worth. The Jenner has the same speed, same agility characteristics, and only slightly less torso twist range than the Cicada but gets 5 JJs. On top of it, if you look at the D, F, and K Jenners, the K loses a weapon but gets a module. The D and the F have the same number of JJs and weapons but one is short a module. But, then you look at other mechs that have variants with and without JJs and the whole thing goes right out the window. None of it makes sense simply because there is no standardized currency for number of weapons, types of weapons (apparently), JJs, torso/arm stats, modules, etc. It is down right idiotic.

[YueFei]

I think things were more even between JJ-capable and non-JJ capable mechs before the introduction of the hill climbing nerf. Ever since then, with mechs getting stuck on pebbles and rocks and struggling to go up hills, JJ-capable mechs are much better at using cover vertically. Whereas before a mech could do a berm drill and smoothly rock back and forth to fire from cover, now the hill climbing nerf means it takes you longer to climb over that hill and expose yourself before you can shoot.

There's also a huge difference between a jump shooter who makes ridiculously long and high jumps in order to shoot, and one who creeps up just to the edge of the hill, and takes advantage of the tremendous initial thrust of the jumpjets to boost very rapidly over cover, acquire a target, and fires in a split second, and then twists away to shield his torso while dropping immediately back into cover. The first jump shooter is easier to deal with.... he's an easier target because he's exposed longer, the jump jet thrust gets weaker after the strong initial burst so he's rising slowly, and you have more time to react to dodge/twist because it takes him longer to line up his shot.

The latter kind of jump shooter is harder to deal with, since he jumps and takes his shot within a very short time frame, especially since HSR means that by the time you see him, he has already fired his shot a couple hundred milliseconds in the past, making it very difficult to twist/dodge on reflex to tank his shot on your arms.

I mean, the fact that some folks think LRMs are the answer to poptarts is because there are bad poptart players who make unnecessarily high jumps, float in the air forever, and allow themselves to be locked onto and hit by LRMs. The skilled poptarts are usually good enough to avoid getting hit by *direct fire* weaons which are just point and shoot. You're not gonna hit them with direct-fired LRMs. You need a spotter for that. But therein lies the problem: deadeye crackshot marksmen who have no problem nailing Light mechs with PPC/AC fire, combined with the ability to jump-shoot-shutdown to avoid LRM volleys, makes that untenable.

Maybe the incoming NARC buff will change things. But against the very best marksmen, I surmise that a Light mech going in to attach NARC beacons is going on a suicide mission... the only question will be whether that Light mechs death will be worth it.

Edited by YueFei, 02 February 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[Krujiente]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 February 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

I don't know your OP does sound kinda whiny cause some Mechs can Pop tart better than others. You disparage tactics you do not like, and rant against perks that are part of a chassis (Big well armored Arms).

Pop Tarting is a hot button issue and to expect it to not be emotion charged was a mistake I think.

I was just there's mechs that are generally built for this kinda **** and then there's mechs that have brawling ability and fire support ability with the poptart function. I play both Victor and Blackjack and just don't want the blackjack nerfed into oblivion because people are tired of getting 2 shot-killed by Victors when a blackjack has to either run a standard engine to protect itself or have no way to avoid taking damage via torso twisting safely.

[Varrin Coursca]

Poptarting is fine in my book. I run comps geared both toward jumpsniping/AC5/UAC5/PPC and fast brawling. Both are valid ways to play the game and present their own piloting challenges. I don't think one or the other necessarily "dominates" in a situation it comes down to having a good gameplan and providing for good execution.

I would say to anyone accusing poptarts of being no-talent hacks: try consistently landing PPC shots consistently on one panel from 500-600 meters out at the apex of your jump.

However, I will grant the point that jump jet thrust and the ability to accomplish lift probably should scale with the number of jump jets equipped. That would be my only suggestion. Only one jet should barely lift most 'Mechs from the ground.

[Krujiente]

Varrin Coursca, on 02 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Poptarting is fine in my book. I run comps geared both toward jumpsniping/AC5/UAC5/PPC and fast brawling. Both are valid ways to play the game and present their own piloting challenges. I don't think one or the other necessarily "dominates" in a situation it comes down to having a good gameplan and providing for good execution.

I would say to anyone accusing poptarts of being no-talent hacks: try consistently landing PPC shots consistently on one panel from 500-600 meters out at the apex of your jump.

However, I will grant the point that jump jet thrust and the ability to accomplish lift probably should scale with the number of jump jets equipped. That would be my only suggestion. Only one jet should barely lift most 'Mechs from the ground.

I've put Meta-based poptart builds on my Victor and Shadowhawk before for funsies, it wasn't all that difficult to put giant holes in a side panel or a center torso panel at a jump. I find it particularly boring in my Victor because it can brawl and poptart like that with appropriate use of jumpjets and damage absorbing arm and leg hits.
I whole heartedly agree that the thrust you're getting should scale with the amount of jumpjets you got. I kinda feel like only having one jumpjet should really only be useful for cutting quick turns or aiding in hill climbing or floating off a hill to avoid leg damage on an uncouched fall.This kinda nerf would hurt my 2H shadowhawk's mobility a bit because of the max 3 JJs, but that's why there's a 5 JJ variant if you need that vertical thrust you can use that one.
I do feel like unbroken falls should be far more damaging to the legs but it would also cause that damage to any mechparts it lands on. (half the reason I don't have a Highlander is because I can't perform a highlander burial). If this was in I feel like poptarting would have more risk to its reward. I can't count how many times I've cornered and assault mech in my Victor and then was forced to JJ onto his head and shoot ac20 rounds down into his torso to get that feeling. Siiiigh

Edited by Krujiente, 02 February 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

People won't be happy till we're playing mech bumper cars.

The real crux of the problem in this thread is that people got touched in their special place at long range and their 200M or less skill boat couldn't cope.

Shame

As to the skill issue comments, well....yes their is a skill level to poptarting as there is to brawling.
Anyone can pop tart, but the true skillful players that do it, will be wiping mechs off the map consistently within 2-3 salvos because they hit the exact same spot to eliminate their enemy.

Perhaps we should also complain about brawlers being able to torso twist while moving.

Edited by DV McKenna, 02 February 2014 - 04:53 AM.

[Imperius]

Give all mechs jump jets or disable weapons fire when not grounded. Boom balanced jump juets should only be used for movement and traversing terrain faster or getting a vantage point.

[MischiefSC]

I have my Highlander, my Victor and my Phract 3D.

The truth is that poptarting is a cheap and effective trick, much like boating PPCs used to be when they were the superior weapon.

The real issue is that people get attached to particular tricks and don't want to see the change. Poptarting is a bunk concept and stymies other viable fighting mechanics. All efforts to shoot at the enemy involve leaving cover. You're no more exposed while poptarting than you are leaning around a corner. It doesn't involve some extra vulnerability. Poptarting just lets you put 30 points in a single location on a target at ~500m while exposing yourself for only a second or two, way less time than ridge-humping or corner leaning. Thus it provides the least exposure to enemy fire for putting your alpha shot out there.

That's it. Poptarting is the maximization of the pinpoint alpha meta. Fixing SRMs isn't going to fix that and 30 points at 500m with 1.5s of exposure is always going to trump 40 points at 120m with 4s of exposure as you try to brawl.

The best solution though isn't trying to nerf shooting while JJing (or more to the point shooting on the way back down from JJing) but to make ACs and PPCs have a brief DOT effect. Enough to spread that damage on the down-shot or require someone stay out of cover longer. 0.5 sec fire time on PPCs and ACs 10 and up. as we won't be seeing convergence this would be an easy fix to a lot of the games balance issues.