147 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 02 February 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

I have my Highlander, my Victor and my Phract 3D.

The truth is that poptarting is a cheap and effective trick, much like boating PPCs used to be when they were the superior weapon.

The real issue is that people get attached to particular tricks and don't want to see the change. Poptarting is a bunk concept and stymies other viable fighting mechanics. All efforts to shoot at the enemy involve leaving cover. You're no more exposed while poptarting than you are leaning around a corner. It doesn't involve some extra vulnerability. Poptarting just lets you put 30 points in a single location on a target at ~500m while exposing yourself for only a second or two, way less time than ridge-humping or corner leaning. Thus it provides the least exposure to enemy fire for putting your alpha shot out there.

That's it. Poptarting is the maximization of the pinpoint alpha meta. Fixing SRMs isn't going to fix that and 30 points at 500m with 1.5s of exposure is always going to trump 40 points at 120m with 4s of exposure as you try to brawl.

The best solution though isn't trying to nerf shooting while JJing (or more to the point shooting on the way back down from JJing) but to make ACs and PPCs have a brief DOT effect. Enough to spread that damage on the down-shot or require someone stay out of cover longer. 0.5 sec fire time on PPCs and ACs 10 and up. as we won't be seeing convergence this would be an easy fix to a lot of the games balance issues.

It's unfortunate that this continues to fall on deaf ears. Or at least ears stuffed with cotton while Paul puts his fingers in them, while screaming "LA LA LA" over and over.

[WildeKarde]

I've no issues with a mech being able to jump and shoot and me. Where I do have an issue is coming onto a map and getting half an enemy team sitting behind a ridge and rising as one to pinpoint single mechs in the team with little or not risk.

By the time you can shoot them it's to late to lock for LRM's. Lasers you have the issue of keeping on target as they drop, maybe even resulting in hitting the ridge before the beam completes. Seems to counter pop-tarts you need to build using the same weapons as they use being PPC and AC's. However, as they have a ridge for extra protection XL's are probably more an option meaning more weight for weaponary.

Or I could make a mad charge in close if I don't want to have my build dictated to by one aspect of the game. Hoping my mech can not only gets to the ridge but over it in a decent enough state to still be combat worthy. Maybe I won't end up getting 10 PPC' in the face

If we had proper physics applied then jumping mechs should have recoil when shooting, and if hit by enough damage a chance to fall causing damage to the mech (not just the legs). AC20's shake a mech on the ground but don't seem to affect a mech midjump.

[Ebonkosh]

I do not have a problem with Pop Tarts if thats what you call them. My issue is that they created shake for when the jump jets are on and thats good to but thats not when the people are shooting. They just wait fr the second when they start to fall and there is no shake. Simple fix would be to have a 2-3 second gyro adjustment timer after using jump jets on larger mechs and shorter timers on smaller mechs. so they wouldn't be able to shoot at the top half of their jumps. Just a thought. They say it is so hard to aim and such but I see people doing it with little problem and very easily when they are coming down with no shake. I would even go so far as to say that if you do not have four jump jets loaded that you can only jump up or ahead. You can't turn. 1-2 jets = forward and up, 3 forward and backwards, 4-5 all directions. And when the jets are blown up you lose ability to move based on the jet blown up. Just another thought.

Also, the timer for the gyro could be based on how long you engaged the JJ int he first place.

Edited by Ebonkosh, 02 February 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

I have my Highlander, my Victor and my Phract 3D.

The truth is that poptarting is a cheap and effective trick, much like boating PPCs used to be when they were the superior weapon.

The real issue is that people get attached to particular tricks and don't want to see the change. Poptarting is a bunk concept and stymies other viable fighting mechanics. All efforts to shoot at the enemy involve leaving cover. You're no more exposed while poptarting than you are leaning around a corner. It doesn't involve some extra vulnerability. Poptarting just lets you put 30 points in a single location on a target at ~500m while exposing yourself for only a second or two, way less time than ridge-humping or corner leaning. Thus it provides the least exposure to enemy fire for putting your alpha shot out there.

That's it. Poptarting is the maximization of the pinpoint alpha meta. Fixing SRMs isn't going to fix that and 30 points at 500m with 1.5s of exposure is always going to trump 40 points at 120m with 4s of exposure as you try to brawl.

The best solution though isn't trying to nerf shooting while JJing (or more to the point shooting on the way back down from JJing) but to make ACs and PPCs have a brief DOT effect. Enough to spread that damage on the down-shot or require someone stay out of cover longer. 0.5 sec fire time on PPCs and ACs 10 and up. as we won't be seeing convergence this would be an easy fix to a lot of the games balance issues.

Again, this is what I've been saying forever. Back in Beta, JJs were slow and they took forever to recharge. People moaned and complained about how useless they were. Now, we've got the horror that is the poptart meta because of JJs, in conjunction with convergence issues and front loaded damage, and Jenners doing 1000 damage because they combine extreme speed, agility, and JJs. Nobody in the game complains about how hard it is to kill a Commando or the Raven 2X or even the 4X. But, they sure complain about killing jump Spiders and Jenners. Nobody is worried about the power of the Centurion or Hunchback but they do when they see that Streakhawk or AC20hawk. And the 3D, Victor, and Highlander are, well, what they are. The common theme amongst all of them is JJs with the latter three being worse due to the power of the PPC+ACs. We've got two problems here and neither are going to be easy or readily accepted changes.

By the way, I love how we have Physics in game where it takes time for me to accelerate or decelerate, how engine energy output and mech mass affect speed and turning, where I slow down if I run into something or go up a slope, where my weapons diminish over distance, and how JJs cause shake cause it all makes sense. But, there is absolutely NO physics involved in JJ thrust. I mean, in all of the years that I watched the Space Shuttles launch on tv, the second that they hit ignition, the damned thing just went full speed and rocketed away. And I'm absolutely certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there wasn't a lick of heat built up in the process. Amirite?

[wanderer]

Yep. It's not tough to fix.

Keep shake going in midair whether the jets are on or off. Kill the pinpoint damage from the poptart weapons-of-choice, the only ones left that can automatically gang-bust a single hit location regardless of target motion or reaction.

Seriously. .4 to .6 duration on an AC's attack will mean it's no longer all-in when hitting something- which is, given the change to lasers from earlier MW's, the sensible thing to do. Sensible seems to be a rare thing in MWO, alas.

[Trauglodyte]

Actually, wanderer, you don't need to keep the shake. When the JJs were patched back on June 6th, they added screen shake, reticle shake, and weapon spread. The latter is basically a make shift convergence fix which should really be pressed through the game based on heat, but I digress. Anyway, the shake can stop after JJs stop burning but you could maintain the spread for another 1-2s. That alone would really put a dent in poptarting. Furthermore, if PGI would adjust JJs so that there was an acceleration affect while slightly increasing the burn time (I'd suggest increasing it from 3.25s *current* to 4.5s) and recharge (bump from 3.25s *current* to 6s), you've put a dent in what jump sniping can accomplish. As fuel and recharge is a constant, those are the two best places to make changes. From there, you can tinker with weapons and I definitely don't mind a bit of splash on the PPC, as it was there in Beta, and making ACs fire bursts at 0.1s (2 for the AC2, 3 for the AC5, 4 for the AC10, and 5 for the AC20).

[Mystere]

Ebonkosh, on 02 February 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

I do not have a problem with Pop Tarts if thats what you call them. My issue is that they created shake for when the jump jets are on and thats good to but thats not when the people are shooting. They just wait fr the second when they start to fall and there is no shake ...

Free-falling objects don't normally experience any shaking. So that kind of explains things.

What needs to be done is significantly increase leg damage when a Mech hits the ground without adequate JJ thrust. Make the damage directly proportional to the kinetic energy of impact. Of course, using your JJs to control descent should also induce shaking.

Ain't Physics great!

Edited by Mystere, 02 February 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

wanderer, on 02 February 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Yep. It's not tough to fix.

Keep shake going in midair whether the jets are on or off.

^this...no.

Mystere, on 02 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Free-falling objects don't normally experience any shaking. So that kind of explains things.

^this...yes.

::Yawn:: So much hate against a play style, disturbing. You all have put a lot of thought in how you want a nerf implemented, many are odd and make no logical sense as in above listed, funny thing is if it were ever to be nerfed I wonder what the new hated 'needs to be nerfed' weapons and play styles would be attacked.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 02 February 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

OK lets look at this logically.

What games is jump sniping unbalancing? I play a lot of games mostly in 4 mans and best I can tell it is only a problem in 12 man or maybe at the very very top of the elo scale. So that means it is unbalancing a small minority of the games.

Next what is the exact problem.

1. Being able to jump high enough to poptart with 1 jump jet is part of it.

2. High pinpoint damage at very long range.

Next how are jump jets working correctly for other game modes.

1. They are working correctly for jumping while brawing. Although 1 jump jet is still to powerful.

2. They working for added mobility for all classes.

Finally IF something has to be done about jump snipers what option mainly effects them but makes sure this play style is still viable?

1. You can make 1 or 2 jump jets less effective. This would probably have a possitive effect across the board.

2. You could lower damage of ballistic at range more drastically. This would made them do less damage at range. This would in turn make it more likely a brawler can get to them before being picked apart. You could do something to PPCs but they have already been nurfed enough. And lasers spread damage so they do not need nurfed. This would also not effect ballistics and medium and short range. And it would still leave sniping effective.

Is that enough to fix it? I do not know we would have to test it. But I think it is best to start with smaller changes that do not effect the 95% of game play that is not broken.

[Mystere]

xMEPHISTOx, on 02 February 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

::Yawn:: So much hate against a play style, disturbing. You all have put a lot of thought in how you want a nerf implemented, many are odd and make no logical sense as in above listed, funny thing is if it were ever to be nerfed I wonder what the new hated 'needs to be nerfed' weapons and play styles would be attacked.

What hate and nerf? I was trying to explain why there is no shake while going down with JJs not firing.

[xMEPHISTOx]

No, yours were the appropriate response to the quote above yours.

[Jaguar Prime]

xMEPHISTOx, on 02 February 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

^this...no.




^this...yes.

::Yawn:: So much hate against a play style, disturbing. You all have put a lot of thought in how you want a nerf implemented, many are odd and make no logical sense as in above listed, funny thing is if it were ever to be nerfed I wonder what the new hated 'needs to be nerfed' weapons and play styles would be attacked.

We have been here before... after the last nerf to poptarts, They moved on to how hill humping was overpowered and needed to be nerfed.

[YueFei]

Mystere, on 02 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Free-falling objects don't normally experience any shaking. So that kind of explains things.

What needs to be done is significantly increase leg damage when a Mech hits the ground without adequate JJ thrust. Make the damage directly proportional to the kinetic energy of impact. Of course, using your JJs to control descent should also induce shaking.

Ain't Physics great!

Why do some people think adding leg damage from falls is going to stop poptarting? Like I said earlier, the really skilled poptarts don't make unnecessarily high jumps. In fact, it's less effective because after the very strong initial thrust, you get a very weak thrust that causes you to rise very slowly, making it take longer to clear your guns to fire, making yourself an easier target to be shot at on the ascent. The really skilled poptarts don't do that, they make very short jumps that boost them quickly past waist-height, take the shot, twist immediately after and drop quickly back into cover.

I don't see this as problematic. In the past, other non-JJ mechs could hill hump pretty well. Up until the hill climbing nerf.

If we're not going to remove the hill-climbing mechanics, I'd rather see the non-JJ capable mechs get buffs to their acceleration/deceleration. Let JJ-equipped mechs be superior for using cover vertically. Then let the non-JJ-capable mechs be better at using cover horizontally. That way, *everyone* can move in and out of cover effectively, it's just a matter of what kind of cover you use.

Edited by YueFei, 02 February 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Mystere]

YueFei, on 02 February 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

Why do some people think adding leg damage from falls is going to stop poptarting?

Who said I want them stopped? My last sentence should have been clue enough:

Mystere, on 02 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Ain't Physics great!

[Ghogiel]

Jaguar Prime, on 02 February 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

We have been here before... after the last nerf to poptarts, They moved on to how hill humping was overpowered and needed to be nerfed.

After poptarting is nerfed to unviable....welcome to our P2W STKM overlords.

[YueFei]

Mystere, on 02 February 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

Who said I want them stopped? My last sentence should have been clue enough:

Why do you say "what needs to be done is significantly increase leg damage when a Mech hits the ground without adequate JJ thrust."? If you don't want them stopped, why do you want their legs to take damage?

It won't stop them anyway, they don't jump high enough to hurt their legs.

[Mystere]

YueFei, on 02 February 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Why do you say "what needs to be done is significantly increase leg damage when a Mech hits the ground without adequate JJ thrust."? If you don't want them stopped, why do you want their legs to take damage?

Mystere, on 02 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

... Physics ...

[YueFei]

So you mean your post was irrelevant to gameplay balance? In a thread about the gameplay balancing of poptarts? OK.

[PhoenixFire55]

Coralld, on 29 January 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Now there's an idea, make it so Heavies and Assaults get the screen shake the whole ride through but not Lights and Mediums, this would be a good indirect buff for them as they are suppose to be the mobile shoot and skooters, not Heavies and Assaults.

If anyone but you suggested that I'd punch them in the face. I also think USA should allow Canada to annex Alaska and Cuba to annex Florida for 'balancing purposes'. Some things could and should be sacrificed for balancing, some couldn't and mustn't. How game core physics treat different mech types is one of those 'must not' ones.

[PhoenixFire55]

Jman5, on 29 January 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

...

Man that video is so awesome.