147 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Jaguar Prime, on 28 January 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

3 things:

1) You have to jump higher now instead of taking the shot on the way up for short jumps. So more opportunity to receive fire from the enemy. (Sorry if you have an issue hitting mechs hanging in the air.)

Unless you're using something with a high weapons mount to begin with. It doesn't take long to line a shot up, especially thanks to being able to F4 your eyeballs above the hill in complete safety now.

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2) Too be extremely accurate from 600m out while on the way down also means you are a good pilot regardless if you poptart or not. This is something that takes practice and everyone can't do.

It doesn't take much practice. Go hump a hill in the Training Grounds for a bit with nobody shooting back, you'll get the hang of it.

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3) If there was screen shake on the way down as well as up, when would I be allowed to actually take a fair shot. Remember the random thing during screen shake?

Bingo! Aim for center of mass. No more precision poptarting, and that's the whole darn point.

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Um, I played MW4 competitively in multiple leagues for more than 6 years. Poptarting was only a problem on 3rd person, respawn servers. I avoided them like the plague. I take it you don't remember why poptarting was so overpowered back then. Remember lining up your shot in third then jumping?

And surprise, we have 3PV (non optional) with respawn (Dropship) matches on the way. Boing boing, bot brotha.

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And why would you want to kill a style of play because you don't like it? Poptarting should be a viable style of play. No more dominant than any other style. Currently it is not the dominant style. When everyone uses it and ground pounders are locked away in their mech bays, Then i will see a problem and will be the first crusading against them.

I want to kill jump -sniping-, not jump-and-shoot. You can jump. You can shoot. You will hit. You just won't precision-poke a 30 point alpha into their CT while making yourself as difficult to counter-punch as you possibly can- which is why we darn well did the pogo-stick Safety Dance in MW4 and yes, if you hated it you could avoid it by changing servers.

There is no changing servers for MWO.

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I take it you are one of those guys that copied my C1 build after they removed the launch delay on JJs. I was poptarting in that before the 3D was introduced and long before that change to JJ's.

Hahahahah NO. I was experimenting with bouncing around since closed beta in my lil' ol Founder's 'Mech, then the other Cats (cause Streak pogoing was fun) later on. Well before the 'Phract 3D and company. The first jump snipers were PPC/LL mounting Catapults in MWO, which helped with dealing with the dominant sniper of the day, the K2 Gaussapults. Pop up, slap a few PPC bolts down the lane, drop back down while minimizing your chance for a 30-point riposte. Get rushed? Feed them Streaks/ML's/SRM's to taste (depending on if it's the 4-energy 2-missile or 4-missile 2-energy chassis). A few SRM 6's + 2 ML's was generally enough to take out targets you'd softened up on the way in, or make a fair fight of it against anything fast enough to rush.

Edit add: I should also say the high ELO games I've occasionally gotten shoved into? Last one was Caustic.

The caldera wall had two lances worth of giant robots doing their best dolphin imitations as they crested the stone wall-waves and chattered at me. With guns.



Screw you, Flipper Gundams. And on the other side, so were my team. They clearly hadn't eaten enough fish so they became bait instead. I tried to get around, but the rest of team Evil Porpoise was smart enough to cover them and I ate enough AC/20 ammo to restock a Boomjager going after them. Appropriate, as that's what delivered it as my ground pounder crested behind them. Boom goes the Battlemaster.

Edited by wanderer, 28 January 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[Coralld]

xMEPHISTOx, on 28 January 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

quit searching/hiding behind excuses for all your in game woes.
The energy you all spend whining would be better spent towards complaining about our lack of meaningful content.

Pot calling the kettle black.

You have nothing left to throw at me other then insults and derogatory remarks. I think its safe to say I can dismiss you as a viable person to debate with.

Oh, I can also post kitty pic's to.

wanderer, on 28 January 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Edit add: I should also say the high ELO games I've occasionally gotten shoved into? Last one was Caustic.

The caldera wall had two lances worth of giant robots doing their best dolphin imitations as they crested the stone wall-waves and chattered at me. With guns.



Screw you, Flipper Gundams. And on the other side, so were my team. They clearly hadn't eaten enough fish so they became bait instead. I tried to get around, but the rest of team Evil Porpoise was smart enough to cover them and I ate enough AC/20 ammo to restock a Boomjager going after them. Appropriate, as that's what delivered it as my ground pounder crested behind them. Boom goes the Battlemaster.

This made me shoot beer out my nose.

Edited by Coralld, 28 January 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Coralld, on 28 January 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Pot calling the kettle black.

You have nothing left to throw at me other then insults and derogatory remarks. I think its safe to say I can dismiss you as a viable person to debate with.

Well that makes me sad...



Derogatory remarks or no, my point remains the same. We can agree to disagree however, how bout that>?
Because in all honesty you may think the game needs to adapt to 'your' needs based on 'your' performance (or lack of), and I feel that one simply should adapt to that which is (for better or for worse), the difference of viewpoint is vast.

[SilentWolff]

All I see is QQ. There will always be a meta and there will always be no skill hacks that will come in here and cry about whatever that new meta is.

Thell, on 28 January 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

It also isn't nearly as difficult to poptart as many people claim, acting like it is some great challenge when it isn't.

As opposed to locking on with missles, or laying Arty strikes? If its so easy and isnt a challenge, why cant you do it?

Thell, on 28 January 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I didn't find it necessary to point out the obvious, although I wouldn't call it an art-form. It is just interesting how many people act like it is such a skillful thing to do, to me it is about the equivalent to an ecm Spider running around poking people for an entire game and being ignored and racks up an insane amount of damage.

Oh I see. So the spider is no skill because he uses the advantages hes given and makes the most of it, but the no skill hacks accept no responsibility for ignoring him the whole game? What kinda logic is that?

[Coralld]

xMEPHISTOx, on 28 January 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Derogatory remarks or no, my point remains the same. We can agree to disagree however, how bout that>?
Because in all honesty you may think the game needs to adapt to 'your' needs based on 'your' performance (or lack of), and I feel that one simply should adapt to that which is (for better or for worse), the difference of viewpoint is vast.

Guess what? I have adapted to it, back in MW3, or was it MW2? I don't remember, but needless to say I have "adapted" to the MW meta for 14 years or so. Clearly its wrong of me to wish for MWO to be something more then its predecessor in this regard because the "elite" players are like 'leggo my eggo'.

Edited by Coralld, 28 January 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Coralld, on 28 January 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Guess what? I have adapted to it, back in MW3, or was it MW2? I don't remember, but needless to say I have "adapted" to the MW meta for 14 years or so. Clearly its wrong of me to wish for MWO to be something more then its predecessor in this regard.

I used to have lofty visions of MWo being something similar to what Battletech: Solaris (aol) was back in the olden days of PC gaming, then I met PGI.
Battletech: Solaris imo was one of the only MW/BT titles that actually made me think it was a BT/MW game, actually felt like a simulator. There was a crude form of jump sniping and DFA but nothing to what we have now. While I don't have a problem w/the current version of it I do know/remember what it was in the past when still played like a sim.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 28 January 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[Thell]

SilentWolff, on 28 January 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

All I see is QQ. There will always be a meta and there will always be no skill hacks that will come in here and cry about whatever that new meta is.



As opposed to locking on with missles, or laying Arty strikes? If its so easy and isnt a challenge, why cant you do it?

[size=4]

Oh I see. So the spider is no skill because he uses the advantages hes given and makes the most of it, but the no skill hacks accept no responsibility for ignoring him the whole game? What kinda logic is that?

Now this kind of stuff is funny. Not once have I claimed that it is "no skill", I say that it isn't as difficult or challenging as people make it out to be. Also, who said that I am not capable of doing it? I have done it and found it boring, therefore I don't do it. Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look silly.

Edited by Thell, 28 January 2014 - 09:12 PM.

[YueFei]

Why don't you people stop arguing with each other on the forum and go fight each other to prove who is right.

[SilentWolff]

Thell, on 28 January 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Now this kind of stuff is funny. Not once have I claimed that it is "no skill", I say that it isn't as difficult or challenging as people make it out to be. Not once have I discredited skill. Also, who said that I am not capable of doing it? I have done it and found it boring, therefore I don't do it. Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look silly.

Your comments cleary insinuate that it takes very little skill to pull off, at least thats how it came across to me.
If you dont think pop tarting is a challenge, come play us in 12 mans and lets see

[NKAc Street]

Ever wonder why hitting a pop tart while its going up don't seem to be as effective as it should? Yeah, I know you have noticed it, unless you are a poptarter hoping to keep your advantage. And please, don't try to make poptarting out to be some kind of uber skillset, it isn't. Aiming is Aiming, if you can aim your mech, you can poptart.

Thanks to some crappy dynamic in the game the pop tart has an advantage that doesn't have anything to do with poptarting. It has to do with hit detection is far worse while you are hitting a jump jetting mech. So attempts to nerf poptarts is simply a Band-Aid.

[Thell]

SilentWolff, on 28 January 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

Your comments cleary insinuate that it takes very little skill to pull off, at least thats how it came across to me.
If you dont think pop tarting is a challenge, come play us in 12 mans and lets see

Sure would if I was in a unit or cared about competitive play, I like the solo life at the moment.

[Corvus Antaka]

advantage of taking 1 jumpjet - huge mobility increase. ability to pop-tart, etc etc.

disadvantages - .5-2 ton commitment

[NextGame]

Krujiente, on 28 January 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I don't hate pop-tarts, some mechs are pretty much made to pop-tart. Take the BJ-1 and 3: great mechs, designed for jumping to high places and popping off rounds, sometimes to deal with the fact you're 45 tons and usually pretty slow for a medium sometimes pop-tarting would be a necessary thing. The Urban mech if it was in the game would be pop-tartastic at times, that small profile and that big gun along with a slow movement speed does not make for a fun time in the open. That said: all these mechs suffer compared to larger pop-tarts because all those pop-tarts have GIANT arms that can block damage. Its very dangerous to load an XL engine into something that has no arms, just guns while Victors (which for table top purposes are using their jumpjets to get close and unload the brawl-pocolypse out of nowhere, not use the jumpjets to cower behind cover and pop off huge chunks of hate) do it constantly because they can turn on a dime using their JJs to block damage on their arms. This helps them prevent damage to their XL while in a brawl while still letting them be very effective pop-tarts. I do hope if they make any changes to discourage pop-tarting it doesn't hurt the blackjack or anything else with swivel arms that can't take MAXIMUM effectiveness of giant arms, huge guns and quick swiveling to not only avoid damage at long range, but absorb it at close range

Poptarting in game right this very minute is a lot tamer than it used to be. I'd be very much against nerfing it too much further as the less viable tactics there are, the less viable mechs and the more 2 dimensional the game becomes. I don't think MWO is in a position of being a game of giant strategic and tactical depth right now where it can afford to lose an entire playstyle.

Also: Just finding some cover and sniping in general is pretty much as effective.

Edited by NextGame, 28 January 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Amazingly pop-tarting is something I don't have a problem with. It takes genuine skill and blame PGI for making it so accessible to mechs with higher payloads. As for my mediums, when I played them jumping and firing was bread and buttah when it came to schooling bad players 101.

[Reitrix]

TygerLily, on 28 January 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

"Learn to counter..."

Right, it's my lack of knowing how to play this game, after 12+ months, that leads me to thinking poptarting is unbalanced.

Clearly, I need to l2p against a 90-ton mech with 17-tons of armor (90+ in the CT) who hides behind his team, presents himself for a couple seconds and hit my mech for 30 damage. Let's say I'm in my Atlas, max armor, completely front-loaded (0 armor in the rear CT)...I can take 4.1 hits before my CT is exposed. Oh, and the poptart brought his weakass "competitive" friends along...

/endsarcasm

I don't want it gone, just balanced.

So ... Learn to turn your shoulder (The big shoulder pad, not your RT/LT) to the poptart ridgeline?
Seriously, at roughly 4 - 6 seconds between shots ... You have around, oh i dunno 16 - 24 seconds to find cover?

... I think i find your problem.

[Jaguar Prime]

wanderer, on 28 January 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Unless you're using something with a high weapons mount to begin with. It doesn't take long to line a shot up, especially thanks to being able to F4 your eyeballs above the hill in complete safety now.

Name me one mech with high mounted weapons that are competent poptarts?

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It doesn't take much practice. Go hump a hill in the Training Grounds for a bit with nobody shooting back, you'll get the hang of it.

If that was the case, why are so many pilots so bad from 400m out? Especially against moving targets.

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Bingo! Aim for center of mass. No more precision poptarting, and that's the whole darn point.

Really? If you aim for center mass, you wont anything......obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

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And surprise, we have 3PV (non optional) with respawn (Dropship) matches on the way. Boing boing, bot brotha.

Again, obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. You should try to poptart in 3rd to inform yourself.

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I want to kill jump -sniping-, not jump-and-shoot. You can jump. You can shoot. You will hit. You just won't precision-poke a 30 point alpha into their CT while making yourself as difficult to counter-punch as you possibly can- which is why we darn well did the pogo-stick Safety Dance in MW4 and yes, if you hated it you could avoid it by changing servers.

There is no changing servers for MWO.

It is one thing to debate this with someone who has a clue but right now I see you don't. I suggest you build a poptart, learn to play it to a high level of play. Then get back with me.

[Jaguar Prime]

Nothing in this game is truly hard to do with a little practice but to say something is as easy as everything else is deceiving. And to say that it is easy to do it well is simply not true. If it was then everyone would be doing it.

Poptarting is one of those things. The reason that it is abused at the higher levels of play is because those players are hands down better than everyone else. So they do it well. To say that it doesn't take a little more than the standard peek a boo playstyle is deceptive.

Speaking from experience of playing both poptart and ground pound, Poptarting does not need anymore nerfing. Short range weapons do need a buff to reward those that are able to close range though.

[PhoenixFire55]

I can only say this ...

To all who propose screen shake on descent ... sure lets have it. Only when your non-JJ mech steps over a rock you'll have to have same shake on descent. When you walk down a hill ... shake on descent. When you make each step ... shake on descent. I think we'll definetely have a fun game when any movement adds screen shake.

"Pop-tarting" isn't any different from "hill-humping". Should we nerf cover as well? Game should encourage open combat not add bandages to "fix" weapons or playstyles.

Automatic instant convergence that makes your weapons hit exact same spot the instant you point your crosshair over a target at any range ... THAT is why this game isn't balanced. If "pop-tarts" and "hill-humpers" were forced to MANUALLY adjust convergence distance of their weapons EACH time the crosshair goes from 30m (looking at cover) to 500m (looking at target above cover) if they wanted their weapons to converge on the target - then I'm pretty sure this tactic wouldn't be as effective.

The reason why weapons like SRMs and LBXs are good brawler weapons is because they don't need convergence. With manual convergence these weapons will (as they should) dominate over lasers/ppc/other ballistics in close combat without any buffs people keep suggesting.

We've been through this over and over and over. I've seen hundreds of people cry that PPC is too bad during closed beta. Now same people cry its too good. I've seen hundreds of people cry Gauss was too good in closed beta. Now I see same people cry its too bad. Do I need to remind you times of LRM-geddon? SRM-geddon? Streak-geddon? Core game mechanics are broken and thats why we can't achieve balance, not any weapon, nor any playstyle.

Lastly ... to people who claim "pop-tarting" doesn't require any skill. Running a HSR-shielded non-hittable Spider doesn't require any more skill than "pop-tarting". Whooshing LRMs into the air 800m away from battle while same Spider provides you with locks doesn't require any more skill. Stomping enemy face point blank with 2-LBX10/3-SRM6 Atlas doesn't require any more skill. Yet doing it well, under any circumstances, does.

Have you seen how best "pop-tarters" play the game? They charge your face, they jump up high and they land each their shot where they want it. And they often don't care about cover or how many enemies they face. Because they know how valuable teamwork is, how effective focusing fire is and how often people just panic when their enemy does not shy away from combat. Because true "pop-tarting" happens at 100-200m range in the open, not at 1000m from beyond the hill or better yet your teammates back. And when it does, it isn't any different from "brawling" in lights or assaults. Because you need very same essential skill of spreading damage you take into different parts of your mech. Being able to jump only adds vertical axis into the equasion.

[Klaus]

http://mwomercs.com/...15#entry2255415

Oh look at this. A thread I made when the Highlander 1st came out. This community.

The fact of the matter is that poptarting as it was then, 1x gauss and your mix of 3 ER PPC/PPC has been nerfed how many times now?

1) JJ shake when going up
2) Gauss charge up
3) PPC heat increase
4) Ghost heat

And now they've recently nerfed the AC/20 projectile speed which was acting as a stand in?

The fact that they have nerfed the living hell out of this style of play over 9 months yet it is still unquestionally the method of choice by anyone with half a brain to see it's benefits is just stupid. PGI obviously knows it's an issue. Look at all the mechs they've made since then. No more assaults or heavies with JJs unless they don't have a ballistic. The Shadowhawk is the exception and at 55 tons it really isn't doing anything that could be done before more effectively. If you care to look closely at sarna at all the clan mechs confirmed and assume that their two others variants will be A and B then it holds up as well.

They obviously want it to be viable without killing it, because a JJ shake when falling that scaled with the weight of your mech would do just that without question. Maybe they'd do a little more if people who had no clue what they were talking about would stop telling the people who did that "it isn't a big deal" because they don't see entire teams doing it. But that would be them admitting that they're at a lower elo which is never going to happen so. GG.

Edited by Klaus, 29 January 2014 - 03:18 AM.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

Poptarts are ridiculous, especially when it's a big huge heavy or even assault 'mech. Heavy and Assault should have tremendous screen shake when jumping, as at the moment it takes NO skill to hit on your way down. Unless you only played turn-based games before MWO.

It is an issue, it created a silly kind of gameplay (look at tournaments), and should be dealt with.
Let Lights and Mediums do the poptarting, but dammit limit Heavies and Assaults. It is out of control now.