147 replies to this topic

[Krujiente]

I don't hate pop-tarts, some mechs are pretty much made to pop-tart. Take the BJ-1 and 3: great mechs, designed for jumping to high places and popping off rounds, sometimes to deal with the fact you're 45 tons and usually pretty slow for a medium sometimes pop-tarting would be a necessary thing. The Urban mech if it was in the game would be pop-tartastic at times, that small profile and that big gun along with a slow movement speed does not make for a fun time in the open. That said: all these mechs suffer compared to larger pop-tarts because all those pop-tarts have GIANT arms that can block damage. Its very dangerous to load an XL engine into something that has no arms, just guns while Victors (which for table top purposes are using their jumpjets to get close and unload the brawl-pocolypse out of nowhere, not use the jumpjets to cower behind cover and pop off huge chunks of hate) do it constantly because they can turn on a dime using their JJs to block damage on their arms. This helps them prevent damage to their XL while in a brawl while still letting them be very effective pop-tarts. I do hope if they make any changes to discourage pop-tarting it doesn't hurt the blackjack or anything else with swivel arms that can't take MAXIMUM effectiveness of giant arms, huge guns and quick swiveling to not only avoid damage at long range, but absorb it at close range

[Cybermech]

well see pop tarting is a very old style of game play and it did ruin many MW games from before.
if damage was recorded with a higher ratio by reducing the lag created from JJ's then I would not see an issue at all.
pop tarting has always been a easy mode and you can watch plenty of vids to see this.
some people don't see an issue so it does seem to be more of a personal opinion.
I for one wouldn't care if they disabled weapons while using JJ's.
wouldn't push for it either, I do know MANY of MWO player base would be very annoyed if it was done.

[Felbombling]

Has the coolness factor of being able to fire weapons while in mid-flight been trumped by the pop-tart issues that have plagued just about every version of MechWarrior... ever? Same thing with the massive level of customization that allows for and seems to promote the min-max alpha strike meta? I can see the allure of both, but wonder if they are doing more harm than good to the health of the game.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Don't see Pop tarts as a big deal but I have 9k matches behind me. To the uninitiated i can understand the sentiment. They can be countered but that's triple hard for pugs to do and do well hobbled by the keyboard.

But I would not mind seeing the poptart being moved by recoil or if hit by a ppc midflight lose gyro stability like ecm loses it. Both would greatly cut down on the noob factor with poptarts and only very good pilots could do it.

[Jman5]

I have seen some interesting discussion about balancing jump snipers.

1. Reducing the ability to turn on a dime in an assault mech while tapping the jump jet would help balance them against faster lighter brawlers/strikers. You could even base it on jump jet class and amount of jumpjets so the big mechs have more of a problem while the smaller mechs like lights and mediums aren't nearly as impaired.

2. Heavily reducing the effectiveness of single jumpjet users. A lot of jump snipers can get away with just a single jump jet. The fact that you get such a benefit for so little tonnage is a major problem. It also effectively negates an entire line of balancing when different variants have different max jump jet slots. They all just put one in and then go.

[TygerLily]

I don't want it gone, I just want it balanced. Currently the tactic provides too much benefit for too little cost/risk.

I agree with Jman's #2 example, using only one jump jet is kind of a steal. Since assaults would have to use 2 tons per to get more effective mobility, it reduces weight for heatsinks, etc. Therefore, not negating poptarts but making them choose their shots or altering loadouts (lowering pinpoint alpha).

3) Many have mentioned this too: buff the brawling weapons. Pulses and SRMs specifically.

4) I also think raising the PPC crit space to 7 would be good. It would match the AC/10 (which it already does for damage and range) and reduce valuable space used for heatsinks...Again, not negating the tactic but making shots more crucial to land (since each is a larger heat investment).

5) Drastic measure, give PPC's the current Gauss mechanic and revert the Gauss to be like normal weapons. I'd be behind that but I know a lot of people would hate it....but master the technique and you're back in the poptart game.

Edited by TygerLily, 28 January 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Jaguar Prime]

Geez......another post on this.

FYI, it's not as easy as it may seam. Those that can do it well put time and effort into learning how to do it. If you have an issue with it, I suggest you put the time and effort into learning how to counter it.

[Thell]

It also isn't nearly as difficult to poptart as many people claim, acting like it is some great challenge when it isn't.

[Jaguar Prime]

Thell, on 28 January 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

It also isn't nearly as difficult to poptart as many people claim, acting like it is some great challenge when it isn't.

And countering it is no more challenging.

[cSand]

I love poptarts.. they're so kind for constantly popping up and presenting a nice floating target

[Jman5]

Jaguar Prime, on 28 January 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Geez......another post on this.

FYI, it's not as easy as it may seam. Those that can do it well put time and effort into learning how to do it. If you have an issue with it, I suggest you put the time and effort into learning how to counter it.

Are you telling me that there is no balance issue, I'm just not trying hard enough?

There is a reason that 12-mans are dominated by jump-snipers.

[cSand]

Jman5, on 28 January 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Are you telling me that there is no balance issue, I'm just not trying hard enough?

He might not be, but I certainly am, with no disrespect meant. There will always be tactics that are challenging. I personally don't find this to be one of them, but some folks do and that's fine but you just have to adapt. Those guys launching up are making themselves targets just as much as they are giving themselves a chance to snap off a quick cheeky shot. Suppressing fire: it's hard to aim in mid air, while 3 guys are popping PPCs and ACs back at you

I find these threads aren't so much an issue with poptarting, or AC's being OP, or whatever else, as it is an issue with people being mad that they got killed by ___________ so ___________ must be nerfed.

Edited by cSand, 28 January 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Jman5]

cSand, on 28 January 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

He might not be, but I certainly am, with no disrespect meant. There will always be tactics that are challenging. I personally don't find this to be one of them, but some folks do and that's fine but you just have to adapt. Those guys launching up are making themselves targets just as much as they are giving themselves a chance to snap off a quick cheeky shot. Suppressing fire: it's hard to aim in mid air, while 3 guys are popping PPCs and ACs back at you

I find these threads aren't so much an issue with poptarting, or AC's being OP, or whatever else, as it is an issue with people being mad that they got killed by ___________ so ___________ must be nerfed.

Not everything is simply a matter of L2P. There are always going to be legitimate balance concerns to consider and tweak. In my opinion and in the opinion of some others in this thread, Jump Jet sniping is an area that needs balancing. Earlier, I listed two possible tweaks that could be done to better balance jumpjets. Reducing the turning ability of larger mechs while in mid-air, and making the number of jump jets equipped more important than it is.

I don't think these are unreasonable and don't have much bearing on whether you can or cannot shoot them reliably while in mid-air.

I believe balance has a tendency to follow relatively closely with what people are running. This is particularly true in the high-skill, cut-throat environment of 12-mans. If countering jump-sniping was simply a matter or putting as much effort as they put into the game, I don't think it would be so prevalent. I think people, especially min-maxers, would naturally move away from it and toward other, stronger, play-styles. The fact that it's been so dominant for so long is a red flag that this isn't some Flavor of the Month strategy. That there are some fundamental advantages to this play-style that need to be addressed.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 28 January 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Not everything is simply a matter of L2P. There are always going to be legitimate balance concerns to consider and tweak. In my opinion and in the opinion of some others in this thread, Jump Jet sniping is an area that needs balancing. Earlier, I listed two possible tweaks that could be done to better balance jumpjets. Reducing the turning ability of larger mechs while in mid-air, and making the number of jump jets equipped more important than it is.

I don't think these are unreasonable and don't have much bearing on whether you can or cannot shoot them reliably while in mid-air.

I believe balance has a tendency to follow relatively closely with what people are running. This is particularly true in the high-skill, cut-throat environment of 12-mans. If countering jump-sniping was simply a matter or putting as much effort as they put into the game, I don't think it would be so prevalent. I think people, especially min-maxers, would naturally move away from it and toward other, stronger, play-styles. The fact that it's been so dominant for so long is a red flag that this isn't some Flavor of the Month strategy. That there are some fundamental advantages to this play-style that need to be addressed.

I think that head laser on your Grid Iron is controlling your thoughts... what do you say to that?

[DaZur]

Thell, on 28 January 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

It also isn't nearly as difficult to poptart as many people claim, acting like it is some great challenge when it isn't.

Anyone can poptart... Doing it efficiently and effectively is an artform.

As is effectively countering them...

[FupDup]

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 28 January 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

I see two pop tarts... one effectively countered and no longer a threat.

[CrashieJ]

I just don't like the fact that when Poptarts pop, Hit Registry goes to hell and back for my laser weapons (a good 60% of my damage vaporizes in the ether). If PGI can fix that problem, I Freaking guarantee you these little flies will start dropping from the sky when players start realizing.

"MAH LAGG SHELD NOH WERKIE, WAHH"

[D Sync]

Pop-tarts aren't invincible, once you learn how to counter their move you will see how weak that build truly is.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

pop tarting problem is just pinpoint demage problem. HP sizes and targeting computer would deal with all this.