97 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

You are arguing against a form of respawn I have never heard of before.

But I don't consider being forced to return to the mechlab, as a step really needed.

What?

Is English not your first language?

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 January 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

What?

Is English not your first language?

Is it really that difficult to understand?

You say, you suspend belief, because you have to return to the mechlab before your mech respawns, else it is somehow "unrealistic".

I don't agree. I don't see a difference between the mech magically respawning in the same match so that I can continue fighting. Or the mech magically respawning in the mechlab, at which point I need to click "Launch" to continue fighting.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 January 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[Flamekin]

Overall this is all a matter of how it is flavored. Basically if they added in goblins and said that they repaired your mech for you after each fight that would just feel different than some mechanic looking dude dressed in an oily outfit. Or instead of mechs lets have giant stuffed bunnies with weapons go at it, same rules, same weapons, everything. The way it gets represented matters... I agree that I don't want to see a button that says "respawn", I could see a button that says "Hot Drop" where you get sent back to the drop ship, spend some amount of penalty time so that it's a bit fair, then proceed with start up procedures and walk out of said drop ship.

I don't think Respawns would be bad. I am beginning to think that most people don't think they would be bad (in the right game mode), I believe most players problem with it is it being referred to has "Respawn" and not something a little more based in the universe.

[Bhael Fire]

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

My argument is that respawing isn't much, if any, different than dying only to immediately relaunch in the same mech.

It's a lot different; it's a completely different match, so balancing issues and immersion are not much of a concern at that point. Having perpetual respawns in the same match with the same mech is a little too far into the arcade twitch style territory. MWO is not about that...its gameplay is meant to be different and a little more sim-like than your standard FPS shooter.

When dropships are introduced, you'll be able to continue playing in the current match after one mech is destroyed with one of your other mechs. This is about as close to a respawn as you're going to get in MWO.

It's basically holding on to a limited suspension of disbelief by saying that each match is an encapsulated reality. That is, you launch with several mechs and each one can only be used once during that match — Because once it's destroyed on that mission, you have to use another one.

[3rdworld]

Bhael Fire, on 28 January 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

It's a lot different; it's a completely different match, so balancing issues and immersion are not much of a concern at that point. Having perpetual respawns in the same match with the same mech is a little too far into the arcade twitch style territory. MWO is not about that...its gameplay is meant to be different and a little more sim-like than your standard FPS shooter.

When dropships are introduced, you'll be able to continue playing in the current match after one mech is destroyed with one of your other mechs. This is about as close to a respawn as you're going to get in MWO.

It's basically holding on to a limited suspension of disbelief by saying that each match is an encapsulated reality. That is, you launch with several mechs and each one can only be used once during that match — Because once it's destroyed on that mission, you have to use another one.

Immersion. Really. This game has a 3PV and consumables. It is really only a killstreak away from being CoD-Robots.

If this were the game we all wanted (meaningful battles, CW, etc), sure, respawns wouldn't make much sense. But this is a lobby shooter, nothing more.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 January 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Is it really that difficult to understand?

You say, you suspend belief, because you have to return to the mechlab before your mech respawns, else it is somehow "unrealistic".

I don't agree. I don't see a difference between the mech magically respawning in the same match so that I can continue fighting. Or the mech magically respawning in the mechlab, at which point I need to click "Launch" to continue fighting.

You said "You are arguing against a form of respawn I have never heard of before", did you not get that the whole "white light" thing was hyperbole?

You seem to be having a hard time following the conversation, I know there a lot of German players and such who don't speak English as their first language.

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Immersion. Really. This game has a 3PV and consumables. It is really only a killstreak away from being CoD-Robots.

If this were the game we all wanted (meaningful battles, CW, etc), sure, respawns wouldn't make much sense. But this is a lobby shooter, nothing more.

Haven't you noticed us trying to make it better?

If you've given up, go find another game.

[Bhael Fire]

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

If this were the game we all wanted (meaningful battles, CW, etc), sure, respawns wouldn't make much sense. But this is a lobby shooter, nothing more.

Why would you want to push it further into generic FPS shooter territory, then?


Also, it's not just a lobby shooter. They are trying to make a game that has the ease of use of a FPS shooter with the immersion elements of a simulator. Going perpetual respawns would be a step in the wrong direction and would not make much sense at all, even with the current gameplay.

Dropships with multiple mechs fits in with the current gameplay style and makes more sense with the style of game MWO is.

[Deathlike]

I'm not adverse to respawns, but there are multiple ways of going about it:

1) CS style respawning - Every mech on the opposing team dies, the next mech in your "quick 4 mech selection" is selected and everyone drop again with their next mech in the queue (shuffling spawn/drop locations optional, probably a good idea to add).

Nothing ultimately changes. It's simple, and it's not complicated (the quick-4 mech idea is applied to the next points, just in case it wasn't clear).

2) MW3 style respawning - When you die, you spawn insanely far from the action, with an ETA to reach someone in the mass between :30 to :60 seconds. Your punishment in a bigger mech by not staying long enough is to "walk" back to the main action. That assumes PGI is capable of dynamic spawn locations (good luck with that) or at least some sort of spawn location generation (PGI designates multiple random spots to spawn in, each ideally 1-2km close to the action).

That isn't optimal, but it's better than "respawning where you died".

3) MW4 style respawning. When you die, you respawn at one of the spawn points that your team usually spawns from. One of the major problems with this is the notion of spawn killing - that is, having opponents deal damage to you before you can appropriately respond due to respawning. You can kind of expand the spawn drop locations, but given that there's a relatively localized area of where you spawn, it's still easy to "camp" those spawning locations.

This isn't optimal either, but an option.

I'm sure there are better solutions, but those are based on older games, which copying the mechanics from isn't too complicated to do (unless, you are PGI).

Edit: One other thing, the quick-4 mech idea would have to be in a tonnage limit situation, since selecting 4 assaults would probably not be optimal for tonnage balance considerations - but also negates newbies from this system unless they start with a 50-65 tonner setup.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 January 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[3rdworld]

Bhael Fire, on 28 January 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Why would you want to push it further into generic FPS shooter territory, then?


Also, it's not just a lobby shooter. They are trying to make a game that has the ease of use of a FPS shooter with the immersion elements of a simulator. Going perpetual respawns would be a step in the wrong direction and would not make much sense at all, even with the current gameplay.

Dropships with multiple mechs fits in with the current gameplay style and makes more sense with the style of game MWO is.

Tell me how it doesn't fit current gameplay. I gave you several reasons why a respawn mechanic would help bring usefullness to different mechs. You and nich keeps saying it doesn't fit, but have provided no reason as to why, other than this is "supposed to be a sim", which it isn't. As far as ease of use with an FPS, pretty well every FPS I have played in the last 10 years has had respawns.

How exactly are they trying to make this game immersive? Dirty windows? You press launch and magically appear on 1 of like 8 different planets, with up to 12 people you don't know. It sure brings that battletech feel home.

I wish this was the game you guys want. But it isn't.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 January 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Nehkrosis, on 28 January 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Do you think they (PGI) will cut our armour in half again?

I would LOVE that.

As a light I too would enjoy that since I don't have armor to start with anyway.

[Bhael Fire]

3rdworld, on 28 January 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Tell me how it doesn't fit current gameplay.

Limited respawn with different mechs is a more interesting gameplay mechanic than perpetual respawns.

With perpetual respawns, dying means nothing. There's no cost for dying other than you have to move back to where you were before you died. It's an unimaginative and boring mechanic.

The game needs less of that type of {Scrap}....not more of it.

[Bhael Fire]

Now, another mechanic that might be fun, is allowing players to drop into an ongoing battle (think of it as reinforcements arriving).

Might be interesting to hit launch and then end up in the thick of battle trying to get the gist of what's going on. Hit the ground running...literally.

[3rdworld]

Bhael Fire, on 28 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Limited respawn with different mechs is a more interesting gameplay mechanic than perpetual respawns.

With perpetual respawns, dying means nothing. There's no cost for dying other than you have to move back to where you were before you died. It's an unimaginative and boring mechanic.

The game needs less of that type of {Scrap}....not more of it.

Pretty much all respawn games are limited in lives. Your team only has x number of lives regardless of mode, this prevents people from farming kills (for too long).

And other than lowering your KDR, dying means nothing now other than increasing your teams chance of losing the match, but that is true even in respawn games.

Bhael Fire, on 28 January 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Now, another mechanic that might be fun, is allowing players to drop into an ongoing battle (think of it as reinforcements arriving).

Might be interesting to hit launch and then end up in the thick of battle trying to get the gist of what's going on. Hit the ground running...literally.

If there were huge maps and the battles were more or less perpetual. That would be fun.

Personally I would like to see a "Headquarters" mode. Cap a point, your team stops respawning until it is de-capped. If you get capped your team still respawns until you can decap the point. I think there are plenty of really fun and interesting game modes, that you will never see in a game without some form of respawning mechanics.

Limit it to 4 mechs per person, a la dropship mode? Fine by me, but that isn't much different than just limiting the team to 48 mechs total.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 January 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[Bront]

Nehkrosis, on 28 January 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Do you think they (PGI) will cut our armour in half again?

I would LOVE that.

Ugh, no. Many mechs die too quickly already. Respawn should be rare/limited (though I'm not against a drop ship mode with limited respawns of mechs you own)

[Grayblue]

No. No. No.

One important reason why I like this game is, unlike those mindless shooters, death has consequences in this game.

Those other games that allow re-spawns reward suicide attacks, and tactics goes completely out the window.

[Zyllos]

CyclonerM, on 28 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I am not sure if i would like respawns in attack/defend mode. I would like a "Rush"-like mode but with no respawns.
The attacker team strikes at the base defend by the other team: if they succeed in destroying it they win the match; otherwise, if they cannot destroy or, better, Capture the base they have to retreat to their Dropship (with working weapons!) and are chased by the defend teams which must ensure they cannot reach the dropship and evacuate.

On the other hand, a respawn mode would like more a true Rush: if you cap a base, then you can go forward to the next one etc.

The issue with these style of maps and gameplay modes is that no respawn just leads them to team death matches as it's next to impossible to achieve the objective without just totally demolishing the other side.

That is why *some* maps/gameplay modes needs respawns to facilitate new avenues of gameplay.

Also, limited respawn means you can only pilot the 4 mechs you have selected from the dropship menu. This means after those 4 are gone, then you can no longer respawn, hence limited respawn.

Edited by Zyllos, 28 January 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[D Sync]

Respawn will not work in this game, this is not Call of Duty.

However, if you want respawn then Call of Duty is just right for you.

[Lykaon]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 January 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Let premades face 12 mans like pugs face premades. You will see some serious rage quits then.

How can you make every topic about premades?

At this point I'm really gonna push for a puggy only queue only so you will see that it will change absolutley nothing.

the pugs will still blunder about,they will still get roflstomped and they will still post on the forums about how it's...

Premades infiltrating somehow..
Elo screwing up
OP'd weapons
Mech tonnage discrepencies
Some other lame arsed excuse.

you know what we will not see? A puggy posting that it's their fault for playing poorly.

[wanderer]

Quote

the pugs will still blunder about,they will still get roflstomped and they will still post on the forums about how it's...

And the premade groups will no longer get to pad their stats on terribad PUG groups. I think you'd find the resulting change from sharks to minnows amusing, once they end up being used to either patch together a 12-man for a 12v12 group or simply beating on nobody but each other for a while.

PUGs are not reasonable opponents for either premades or 12-man at this point. It might be worth revisiting putting premades and PUGs together once teams have their own VOIP match channels.

[Khobai]

Quote

Respawn will not work in this game, this is not Call of Duty.

That's such flawed logic... Thats like saying respawns dont work in Super Mario Brothers because Super Mario Brothers isnt Call of Duty. Different games are different.

Respawns can work in MWO. Having respawns alone doesnt turn a game into CoD, if they did then just about every game ever made would be CoD. And thats clearly not the case...

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2014 - 05:32 PM.