11 replies to this topic

[Adran]

So, for the longest time some of the weapons in this game have been delegated to "troll" or "support" weapons, depending on who you ask. I would like to see ALL the weapons in the game to be considered "viable", as I'm sure at least some of you do. So, here's a quick rundown of some ideas I had this morning for improvements for the Flamers and Machine Guns. I'd talk about the Narc too, but it's already getting a fix according to a thread somewhere on here. Tag works just fine, and so isn't going to be part of this discussion either. Feel free to provide your opinions on both what I suggest here, and alternatives if you disagree, or improvements to the concepts provided here.

Flamers

Flamers currently do 0.7 DPS with a rapidly climbing HPS that gets higher the longer you use it, up to a cap. They also build heat on the enemy mech. This sounds awesome in theory, except the heat generated is completely dissipated by the enemy mech's heatsinks to the point where it just doesn't matter enough. Some people say multiple flamers don't even stack the heat effect, but I haven't seen evidence to support this one way or the other yet, so for now I'll assume that multiple flamers don't even matter aside from DPS.

To start, lets look at weapons and get a comparison between the Flamer and other weapons.



Looking at just information I've copied from Li Song's Mechlab, the flamer has the LOWEST damage of any weapon (aside from the machine gun, but it spits out 10 bullets per second, so it's technically suppose do more than 0.1 damage) in pretty much every category. Ballistics are a bit of an exception as they have relatively small amounts of damage per ton, but high DPS and low Heat.

That said, the flamer DOES have an improved crit chance, but that is a mechanic that players don't really notice, and it doesn't improve how good it feels to use the weapon in any way. So, lets look at how to improve it.

My first proposed change is to actually buff the damage to something worth its weight. Personally, I think a flat [1] DPS would be best, as it then becomes an actually VIABLE alternative to the Medium Laser as far as damage goes, aside from the much shorter range, higher heat (eventually), and lack of burst damage. However, it's still generally inferior to most other weapons. Alternately, at least [0.8] would bring the damage up to just below the Medium Pulse Laser in terms of DPS/per ton if that proved to be too much for whatever reason.

This leads into the second change, a change in the base mechanic for the flamer: the heat increase on the enemy mech. We all know it's there, but I don't think most people even notice it happening when they're being flamed. That said, I propose to rework it to do the following.

Being hit by a Flamer for 1 second gives the mech 1 Flame stack. Each Flame stack reduces the Heat Dissipation of that mech by [0.01]. Flame stacks can get up to a maximum of [50]. When not being hit by the Flamer, Flame stacks disappear at a rate of [10] per [3] seconds.

Looking at this, in theory you could reduce an enemy mech's heat dissipation by 0.5 (or 5 Single Heat Sinks worth of heat dissipation). Flame stacks would be shown in the same way as the effects of ECM and other effects. It would take about 15 seconds to fully clear all the stacks.

Looking at it all combined, this means the weapon does decent (but not great) DPS for it's weight, with relatively high HPS the longer you maintain it, and reduces the enemy's ability to DISSIPATE heat without stopping them from functioning completely. With a single Flamer, it would take 50 seconds to fully max out the flame stacks, but a group of mechs with flamers, or multiple flamers, can fill the stacks up faster, allowing a light pack to focus down an assault laser boat, but not necessarily fully shut it down.

Since this isn't as good as far as DPS goes, they aren't going to kill it as easily as they could taking a bunch of Medium Lasers, but it would still be a viable alternative.

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Machine Gun

The Machine Gun is actually a decent weapon now... if you have 4+ machine guns. It really doesn't do anything "well", aside from being able to constantly deal small amounts of damage. It actually claims to do the amount of damage I'd want the Flamer to do, though the damage is inconsistent according to some thread discussions on the Machine Gun that I saw a while back, dealing closer to 0.7 DPS I believe... which makes it about as effective as the current Flamer. That said, the damage isn't what I would change to make the Machine Gun a worthwhile weapon.

This is a much simpler fix than my suggestion for the Flamer, and was actually inspired by Guns of Icarus Online. Instead of working like it does now, when used against the Armor of the mech, the Machine Gun deals [10%] more damage per bullet, but it deals [10%] less to Internals (this does not include weapons, things like BAP, the engine, or ammo). It deals it's normal damage to everything else.

This change gives the machine gun a purpose, especially on smaller mechs that can't bring the firepower to take down pretty much anything. On a larger mech, while useful, once the armor is gone, the weapon becomes much less useful, and bigger mechs could just as easily take an AC/2/5/20 that's useful all the time instead.

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Well, that's all my ideas for now. If I come up with anything more (or any interesting suggestions are made in the discussion), I'll add them here.

Edited by Adran, 30 January 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[DEMAX51]

Just to reassure you: Multiple flamers don't impart more heat - just more damage. I'm not going to take the time to find the forum thread explaining it, but I'm sure.

[Adran]

DEMAX51, on 28 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Just to reassure you: Multiple flamers don't impart more heat - just more damage. I'm not going to take the time to find the forum thread explaining it, but I'm sure.

I figured that was the case, as so many people claim it is, but I have personally never seen undeniable proof or tested it myself in a way I could confirm, and I always prefer proof I can verify from either a trusted source of from my own experiences over anything else. Still, I assumed that to be the case in the thread and addressed it as well.

[Prezimonto]

What I'd like to see is the flamer get a sort of napalm effect... which is kind of what you're describing with flame stacks. I'd suggest that your mech should get smeared with flame(and be visibly on fire) and while burning and that your dissipation get cut down in increasing amount. I'm actually okay with the flamer not doing great damage if the enemy mech is roasting without having the hold the darn things on the mech in perpetuity.

So it's a flamer thrower... make is shoot a line of burning goo with each shot. The don't really do much damage (maybe .1/second for 10 seconds) and then it gutters out as the fuel is consumed. So fire two flamers... they each negate .5 heat dissipation while the mech is on fire... if you manage to land enough stacks the enemy stops dissipating and starts heating up to the 90%... but the key is the dissipation is shut off. So the mech can still run, but shooting is a bad idea until you get away.

low damage output, but with a real ability to shut down the other mech's offensive capability... and hit and run as well... which is the biggest issue with flamers as a support weapon... no light ever should be hanging around to keep a flame on a target.

Edited by Prezimonto, 28 January 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Adran]

I've added the Machine Gun to my suggestion.

[generalazure]

I'd just scrap the damage on flamers altogether and make it more of a useful tool than a direct weapon. Blast some on the ground and it will produce thick smoke and glaring brightness in thermal for a short time. Can give your brawlers the opportunity to close over open ground without being ripped to pieces by gauss and PPCs, cover your retreat or just generally confuse the enemy.
Kinda susceptible to trolling and harder to implement than just tweaking a few numbers (requires optimizing smoke performance, among other things), so I doubt I'll ever see that.

[Belorion]

They are both fine. I see them used enough that they don't need a buff. If you saw everyone using them, then they would be a problem.

[Andilar]

Another thing they could do with flamers would be to give it more damage spread out over a very wide area. So maybe you could blind 2 or 3 mechs in a skirmish line AND damage all of them, but not focus the damage on one part of one mech.

As a light, I'd consider standing still to use a wide spreading weapon this way. Also, it might be useful for heavier mechs as an alternative light deterrent. They wouldn't have to aim at the light, instead just having the flamer firing in the right general direction. No one-shots with the dispersed damage, but no free circling either.

Edited by Andilar, 29 January 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[Adran]

Belorion, on 29 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

They are both fine. I see them used enough that they don't need a buff. If you saw everyone using them, then they would be a problem.

While you may "see everyone using them", they're HIGHLY ineffective, and pretty much everyone knows it. I'd guess I'm probably mid-elo, and I rarely see flamers, because they just aren't worth it. I've tried using flamers myself before in the past, and while "fun", I never manage to actually accomplish anything with them. Thus why I made my suggestions.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd test the following changes:

Flamers

• 1.0 from 0.7 Damage (can be raised if range is shortened)
  
• 0.1 from 1.0 Heat (exponential nature, is a concern, which is why it's low) or instead have a Cap for the user to prevent death from keeping the Flamer on.
  
• Adjust range up or down as necessary. For Example: 64 M / 90 M - Effective/Max Range
  
• Reduce Heat Cap from 90% down, such as low as 70% to decrease heat stun lock with damage increase, needs to be adjusted as necessary.

Machine Guns

• Turn it into a Projectile Weapon, from Hit Scan, no spread, hit based on projectile speed to cross-hair.
  
• 1.00 - Damage (can be lowered if tested to be too strong)
  
• 0.52 - Cooldown (can be raised as needed)
  
• 1.92 - DPS
  
• 625 m/s - Speed
  
• 200 shots (at least) - Ammo per Ton (can even be set to 400 bullets to match damage potential per ton of TT MGs)
  
• 90 M / 270 M - Effective/Max Range

[Adran]

Praetor Shepard, on 29 January 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

I'd test the following changes:

Flamers

• 1.0 from 0.7 Damage (can be raised if range is shortened)
  
• 0.1 from 1.0 Heat (exponential nature, is a concern, which is why it's low) or instead have a Cap for the user to prevent death from keeping the Flamer on.
  
• Adjust range up or down as necessary. For Example: 64 M / 90 M - Effective/Max Range
  
• Reduce Heat Cap from 90% down, such as low as 70% to decrease heat stun lock with damage increase, needs to be adjusted as necessary.

Machine Guns

• Turn it into a Projectile Weapon, from Hit Scan, no spread, hit based on projectile speed to cross-hair.
  
• 1.00 - Damage (can be lowered if tested to be too strong)
  
• 0.52 - Cooldown (can be raised as needed)
  
• 1.92 - DPS
  
• 625 m/s - Speed
  
• 200 shots (at least) - Ammo per Ton (can even be set to 400 bullets to match damage potential per ton of TT MGs)
  
• 90 M / 270 M - Effective/Max Range

The problem with the flamers isn't so much the damage, as the fact the heat on the enemy mech scales so slowly, it just doesn't matter. Heatsinks mitigate any effect they might have right now. Even buffing the damage to 1, the flamer is outclassed by EVERY other weapon in the game. Even Machine Guns as they are right now (inconsistent that their damage is) are better than the Flamer. The Flamer will almost certainly never be a damaging weapon, but it can at least be a proper CC weapon.

Decreasing the heat cap like you suggested actually makes the weapon even WORSE, as even with the 90% heat cap, you never GET the enemy mech to 90% heat to begin with.

As for your suggestion for the Machine Guns, while it would fix the issue it has with inconsistent damage, it also turns the Machine Gun into a weaker version of the AC/2 and would remove what purpose it DOES have, thus resulting in no one using it.

EDIT: Also, I've now updated the OP with a screenshot that shows the stats of every weapon in the game to provide more data.

Edited by Adran, 30 January 2014 - 01:47 AM.

[SockSlayer]

Another old flamer post, this was back when 0.7 damage was a thing, what I would do for that flamer to be back. With all heat penalty gone, no exponential heat generation, only heat damage would be 1 instead of 4.5.