33 replies to this topic

[Ximius]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 31 January 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

jumpjets recharge far too quickly, give not nearly enough vertical hieght (try jumping onto platform crimson straight from water in a 12 jj spider it's not doable) the turning / agility bonuses they give big mechs is also problematic.

and they have no heat.

if we had btech:3025 style jumpjets instead the entire "jumpsnipe" meta wouldnt exist.

and, we could actually DFA and "jump" onto things, instead of grinding our mechs up along terrain and buildings.

plus, think of the tactical uses if you could jump from ground floor to top of crimson straight platform.

I actually like this idea. However the key parts are that 1) JJ generate heat and 2) the recharge is significantly more limited.

You want to use JJ to hop up onto the Crimson Straight platform for tactical advantage? Sure, no problem! Spiders have other issues such as hit recognition but there is no problem even for them with this idea. However you can not use them to jump snipe people on the hill from the ground floor where LRMs and direct fire can not possibly hit. They need to generate enough heat and recharge slowly enough that that is impractical.

Edited by Ximius, 31 January 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Ximius, on 31 January 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I actually like this idea. However the key parts are that 1) JJ generate heat and 2) the recharge is significantly more limited.

You want to use JJ to hop up onto the Crimson Straight platform for tactical advantage? Sure, no problem! Spiders have other issues such as hit recognition but there is no problem even for them with this idea. However you can not use them to jump snipe people on the hill from the ground floor where LRMs and direct fire can not possibly hit. They need to generate enough heat and recharge slowly enough that that is impractical.

the entire mechanic of just "peeking" over/around stuff with jumpjets is exactly why we have a jumpsniping meta, and if instead we had forceful hieght giving jumpjets that forced mechs to jump higher & expose themselves would not be anything like what it is now.

add to this exponential heat. so 1 jumpjet gives the most heat, while max jumpjets would give the least heat, equally giving you more hieght at the same time. But jumps become actual "jumps" that move mechs forward & up, relocating them to a completely different position, as intended in battletech they then become mobility items and not offensive pop-tart items.

[Grendel408]

They did recently adjust the JJ mechanics that when you jump you do propel forward, with more speed more forward motion is given to the JJs of the Mech... same works if you're moving in reverse with JJs active when jumping, you will jump backward... I can't wait until people cry about how acrobatic Lights are with lots of JJs LOL! The more JJs you have, the more ability to adjust vector should be noted with the JJ mechanics in the game... and they should cause heat... I believe though that the less you have the longer the recharge time should take, while the more JJs you have the faster it should recharge.

[Cest7]

They could put collisions back in game, It'd be funny to watch a jenner faceplant while trying to slew up a mountain at 150KPH.

[Reefwalker]

NO! Jump Jets are the FUNNEST thing on a mech! Granted JJ's are the hardest maneuver component to master, but once you get it down, you will want it on every mech. Besides pop tarts attract missiles, lights, and arty strikes.

I want MORE for my JJ's,

I want them to recharge, in air, when I am not using them.

I want more control over directional thrust.

In short I uddderly refute your claim that JJ's need to be neutered. Futher I infer from your position on jump jets that you may be a good shoot, but you are a poor pilot.(and if that made you mad it proves it.)

All I am hearing is vertically challenged pilots because if you knew how to fly you would not cry about Jump Jets, you would scream MORE! The only way you wont get out classed by a good Jump Jet pilot is to become a better one yourself, so buck up, buckle down, and practice.

High damage pinpoint alphas are a problem. Not Jump jets and as long as snipers live among us, it always will be. Your only practical defense from any sniper is never stand still, and if hes good you are still cored.

Edited by Reefwalker, 31 January 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[shellashock]

Reefwalker, on 31 January 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

NO! Jump Jets are the FUNNEST thing on a mech! Granted JJ's are the hardest maneuver component to master, but once you get it down, you will want it on every mech. Besides pop tarts attract missiles, lights, and arty strikes.

I want MORE for my JJ's,

I want them to recharge, in air, when I am not using them.

I want more control over directional thrust.

In short I uddderly refute your claim that JJ's need to be neutered. Futher I infer from your position on jump jets that you may be a good shoot, but you are a poor pilot.(and if that made you mad it proves it.)

All I am hearing is vertically challenged pilots because if you knew how to fly you would not cry about Jump Jets, you would scream MORE! The only way you wont get out classed by a good Jump Jet pilot is to become a better one yourself, so buck up, buckle down, and practice.

High damage pinpoint alphas are a problem. Not Jump jets and as long as snipers live among us, it always will be. Your only practical defense from any sniper is never stand still, and if hes good you are still cored.

First, don't like your own post. It's bad form. Second, you aren't refuting his statement at all. You are just making the assumption that pop tarts are vulnerable to lrms, arty strikes, and lights. Almost any good pop tart you find in this game will not be jumping up and down in the same location; they will be moving from location to location. This makes hitting them with an arty strike extremely difficult. In addition, their exposure time is so low that it is extremely unlikely that any lrms will be able reach and hit the pop tart because they will lose lock so fast. Finally, almost every pop tart I see nowadays have 3-4 streaks or a partner to counter lights.

IIRC, the proper counter to pop tarts are in-your-face brawlers with heavy punches that are currently limited by borked srms. That is what needs to be fixed, not skewing the balance even further by making what makes pop tarts so powerful (the ability to maximize damage in extremely tiny exposure windows through the use of JJ) even stronger. In addition, just saying "If you don't like dying to pop tarts, become a better one yourself.", won't cut it here. There needs to be counters to every tactic, or that tactic will become the dominating one.

That said, I would like to see vector thrusting for JJ, but recharging fuel in midair will not go over well at all with the community from a game balance standpoint.

Also, you are debating an argument wrong if you have to resort to ad hominum about his piloting skills.

Edited by shellashock, 31 January 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Reefwalker]

shellashock, on 31 January 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

First, don't like your own post. It's bad form. Second, you aren't refuting his statement at all. You are just making the assumption that pop tarts are vulnerable to lrms, arty strikes, and lights. Almost any good pop tart you find in this game will not be jumping up and down in the same location; they will be moving from location to location. This makes hitting them with an arty strike extremely difficult. In addition, their exposure time is so low that it is extremely unlikely that any lrms will be able reach and hit the pop tart because they will lose lock so fast. Finally, almost every pop tart I see nowadays have 3-4 streaks or a partner to counter lights.

IIRC, the proper counter to pop tarts are in-your-face brawlers with heavy punches that are currently limited by borked srms. That is what needs to be fixed, not skewing the balance even further by making what makes pop tarts so powerful (the ability to maximize damage in extremely tiny exposure windows through the use of JJ) even stronger. In addition, just saying "If you don't like dying to pop tarts, become a better one yourself.", won't cut it here. There needs to be counters to every tactic, or that tactic will become the dominating one.

That said, I would like to see vector thrusting for JJ, but recharging fuel in midair will not go over well at all with the community from a game balance standpoint.

Also, you are debating an argument wrong if you have to resort to ad hominum about his piloting skills.

First, its my post so of course I LOVE it, LOL

Second, You seam to think that any one that shoots at you wile using jump jets is a pop tart. so lets get some definations straight.
pop-tart: jumps up and down in one spot unloading a high damage pinpoint alpha.

Jumpsniper: delivers a high damage pinpoint alpha, then moves to a new spot and does it again, may pop-tart if the spot requires it.

3D combat: Mechs built for agility, and speed don't have the tonnage left to carry a high damage alpha, but in the hands of a skilled pilot and gunner can pull off a high damage match.

An example of 3D combat

I break cover at over 100 kph, rock your cockpit with my SRM6+ ARITMIS ,and hit the jump jets. As I fly across your flank above your torso guns, I spin my mech, wile torso rotating so that Guns are on your six and my feet are pointed toward cover. I land and unload my 6 in your 6, then give you lasers and machine guns as I disappear back out of sight , in cover, as you unsuccessfully try to get a bead on me. Now, if this has gone as practice I give a yea-haw, then an evil chuckle because from here you got three options, and I got a answer for them all. You best be a better pilot than me or you get my 6 in your 6 again. Your only winning option would be teamwork, luring me to your teams line of sight for coordinated fire.

Third don't lie,and put words in my mouth that are not mine the exact quote was" The only way you wont get out classed by a good Jump Jet pilot is to become a better one yourself, so buck up, buckle down, and practice." Also I don't like the insinuation that I am a pop-tart, I am much better than that,and still improving. I practice what I preach.

Also, from the posts I can infer your tactics, from your tactics I can broadly infer your skill level. So when I say buck up, buckle down, and practice I mean it as a positive encouragement to learn the funnest part of being a mech pilot.

Finally You have side stepped the issue, High damage pinpoint Alphas are what core you not Jump Jets.

Edited by Reefwalker, 31 January 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[Shadowdragonne]

Lesson One: When being sniped at, don't stay out in the open.
Lesson Two: Jump jets are not the problem. Running in circles is not the problem. Jumping up high to gain a height advantage is not the problem. Falling damage, or lack there of is not the problem. Learn the problem and stop nerfing the weapons and equipment.

Running on scoria, pavement, ice, mountain ridges etc.. should make you have a chance to fall down. Running in tight little circles around another 'mech, while a legit tactic, should have a higher chance of slipping and falling the faster/tighter you orbit. The fact that there is infinite friction to keep 'mechs from slipping, sliding and falling is the problem. Basically, the only "piloting skill" in the game is "dodge" and that is bullski.

And, as was stated before, when they are in the air, you have the exact same amount of time to target them as they do to target you.

Have a day.

[Ximius]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 31 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

add to this exponential heat. so 1 jumpjet gives the most heat, while max jumpjets would give the least heat, equally giving you more hieght at the same time.

Not sure I understand this. Shouldnt JJs produce linear heat or even the opposite? Having 5 jet thrusters firing certainly creates a hell of a plume behind you. I think they should be linear.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 31 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

But jumps become actual "jumps" that move mechs forward & up, relocating them to a completely different position, as intended in battletech they then become mobility items and not offensive pop-tart items.

Love this. There is a mandatory directionality. Whether its just forward or not I dont know ( seems hard to control? ) but unless you have that forward space available you just fly into the rock and not up. This lets you get the cool "jump onto the platform" mechanic and makes it harder to stand in 1 spot poptarting.

Shadowdragonne, on 31 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Running on scoria, pavement, ice, mountain ridges etc.. should make you have a chance to fall down. Running in tight little circles around another 'mech, while a legit tactic, should have a higher chance of slipping and falling the faster/tighter you orbit. The fact that there is infinite friction to keep 'mechs from slipping, sliding and falling is the problem. Basically, the only "piloting skill" in the game is "dodge" and that is bullski.

I like the friction idea. Mechs shouldnt have "magic planet friction" to always keep them upright. Stalkers stay upright most of the time mostly because they are only doing 50-60 km/h! At 140 its a different story! Maybe the Improved Gyros would actually help this but there is always a chance that doing left-turn, left-turn, left-turn around a mech is going to make you slip, fall, and take a few seconds to get back up. Even a Spider would need a few seconds to right itself if it fell over. So judge the risk appropriately- do you want to run in circles with the advantage over assaults, but risk falling down and being stuck for 3 seconds while they beat the hell out of you?

Seems all of these even things out quite well.

[Corvus Antaka]

see real jumpjets in action around the 1 minute mark.

[Reefwalker]

Shadowdragonne, on 31 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Lesson One: When being sniped at, don't stay out in the open.
Lesson Two: Jump jets are not the problem. Running in circles is not the problem. Jumping up high to gain a height advantage is not the problem. Falling damage, or lack there of is not the problem. Learn the problem and stop nerfing the weapons and equipment.

Running on scoria, pavement, ice, mountain ridges etc.. should make you have a chance to fall down. Running in tight little circles around another 'mech, while a legit tactic, should have a higher chance of slipping and falling the faster/tighter you orbit. The fact that there is infinite friction to keep 'mechs from slipping, sliding and falling is the problem. Basically, the only "piloting skill" in the game is "dodge" and that is bullski.

And, as was stated before, when they are in the air, you have the exact same amount of time to target them as they do to target you.

Have a day.

There is no magic friction, it just looks like it because the map has a magic self heal. Mechs tearup the surface as they grab traction, but the map cant be affected by mechs yet. the footprints disappear right in front of you this is the biggest flaw in the reality simulation. I am a readneck from deep in the woods, and I know how to track. Mechs would leave sign a blind man could follow. Instead in this game they leave no sign of their passage.

?, YOU ARE THE PILOT. your skill cannot be truly quantified, only truly displayed. There is no TOP GUN manual for mech pilots. There are many skills you can learn, Too many to get into here. But to learn them ether study a master, or reinvent the wheel. And of course go to the Training grounds and practice, practice, practice.....

Also no pilot or gunner stat, that would change from team play to individual stat play. No thank you, I don't want to be a stat \/\/****!

Edited by Reefwalker, 01 February 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Calh Paw]

I mostly pilot the CTF-3D (with jump jets) and I think jump jets are very powerful mostly in heavy and assault mechs. I wouldn't mind if they were nerfed. My preffered method would be to increase generated heat or increase recharge time. With greater penalty applied to heavier jump jets. I would leave light mech jets as they are.

Of course, this wouldn't (nor should it try to) stop pop-tarting and/or jump-sniping--just make them more situational.

Also, pin-point, high-instant-damage weapons (AC, PPC, Gauss) should be nerfed or the other weapons (SRM, LRM, LB10X, flamer, lasers) should be buffed. That would not only balance out the weapons, but also reduce relative effectiveness of jump-sniping, and with it jump jects.

[Wesxander]

Against most the suggest done here unless you want put weapons ranges the way they should be. That means all you ac 20 guys no more range 750 for your shooting. No more getting an ac 10 past your effective range. Same for lasers your effective range is your max range. This is one the things the shooters love. Never hear them talking about putting ranges to the same as the other games before this one.

[HUBA]

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

...
Increase tonnage on JJ's to scale more appropriately to weight of mech.

Increase recharge time on JJ's so they would be used more for tactical maneuvering versus continuous use.

Implement a more aggressive fall damage model.

Possibly use number of JJ's to increase recharge time instead of Jump distance or on the flip side more JJ's means longer jump distance and longer recharge.

Make JJ's easier to crit and/or explode like the guass. Maybe they sit outside the armor of the mech?

Extend recticle shake or targeting variance(whatever its called) to when a mech is falling as well as lifting.
...

I would like only some changes in the recharge and use time of the JJ. Like per JJ 1 sec. boost time. So you can fly with 10 JJ but only hop with one. I always use 1 JJ because it's cheap and OP. the recharge should have 3 sec. cool down after use and then take as long as you can jump (if you used 5 sec. it take 5. sec. (+3 cool down)) while charging it generate heat (in this case 5 sec. +1 heat) So you will get more for your JJ or less if you only use 1.

No shaking, but maybe the mech could be a bit slippery in air. If you turn you will keep the momentum. And if you are being hit in air you should start spinning.


edit:
one little tweak: class I/II JJ have a little shorter time (.8 sec) and class IV/V a higher time (1.5 sec.). Because the most bigger mechs have only 3 JJ but should also be able to jump on a house if they want.

Edited by HUBA, 03 February 2014 - 06:21 PM.