437 replies to this topic

[redd1]

in an ideal world a boat/alpha striker would have to be built as a glass cannon to manage the heat/ammo requirements so as long as they balance it correctly i have no issue with them not touching the alpha strike option.

[Malavai Fletcher]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 November 2011 - 11:41 PM, said:

MW4 damage figures for weapons are all wrong and the mechs are carrying far more armor than normal. In "real" TT figures, the Atlas can only mount 19.5 tons of armor, max. As opposed to MW4: mercs, the Atlas can carry 25 to 27 tons of armor.

Yes you could fit obscene amounts of armour on some mechs,but to do that means you would severly gimp the amount of weps or speed it could travel,whats the point in having a hugely armoured atlas if its got the firepower of a 60tonner,or the speed of a snail.

ArchSight, on 26 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

I've truly never seen a heavy mech knock a assault mech to the ground without destroying it first.

It was possible with a cauldren born and CMRM's to knock down assaults,a viable heat on,non mixtech build.You had to aim at the top half of the mech,the higher your cmrms hit the more likely you would knock them down.

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 November 2011 - 10:54 PM, said:

Bear in mind in 3049, there is only FF armor and Standard armor. And that AMS you have, have limited shots. So it is all the more important to balance out boats unless you enjoy the return of 14 Er small laser shadow cats (legal fit btw since it's Omni tech) that can 1 to 2 volley your mech's leg off.

The easiest solution is to implement Cone Of Firing. You can still alpha, you can still boat your favourite direct fire weapons but just don't expect them to hit the same pinpoint location. Missile boats have being dealing with this problem, why don't implement this on direct fire boats ?

They changed how missles hit?Because it was allways possible to hit the same mech part with missles,you just had to aim them properly,you may fire all your missles with one button push but they left your mech in groups of five,so holding your aim on a specific mech for a second or 2 after firing usually ensured they hit the same point,of course you also had to hope the guy your firing at wasn't smart enough to try and get behind cover.

Im sorry but in all the years i played i never heard of this terror that is the scat with 14 er small laser.

Alot of comments seem to be suggesting the times people got cored or had their backsides handed to them by a boat they were fighting in a 1 on 1 situation,the game was never meant to be played 1 on 1,when you played multiplayer you had 7 other real people playing on your team,in pubs the team that worked together and coordinated fire would win,the lone rangers would be easily picked off 1 at a time.

[Melissia]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 November 2011 - 09:25 PM, said:

A Nova cannot alpha strike unless you want to risk shutdown every time without fail.

Which is what most alpha strikers should be like, and that's enough balance.

[EDMW CSN]

Malavai Fletcher, on 26 November 2011 - 03:09 AM, said:

Yes you could fit obscene amounts of armour on some mechs,but to do that means you would severly gimp the amount of weps or speed it could travel,whats the point in having a hugely armoured atlas if its got the firepower of a 60tonner,or the speed of a snail.

It was possible with a cauldren born and CMRM's to knock down assaults,a viable heat on,non mixtech build.You had to aim at the top half of the mech,the higher your cmrms hit the more likely you would knock them down.


They changed how missles hit?Because it was allways possible to hit the same mech part with missles,you just had to aim them properly,you may fire all your missles with one button push but they left your mech in groups of five,so holding your aim on a specific mech for a second or 2 after firing usually ensured they hit the same point,of course you also had to hope the guy your firing at wasn't smart enough to try and get behind cover.

Im sorry but in all the years i played i never heard of this terror that is the scat with 14 er small laser.

Alot of comments seem to be suggesting the times people got cored or had their backsides handed to them by a boat they were fighting in a 1 on 1 situation,the game was never meant to be played 1 on 1,when you played multiplayer you had 7 other real people playing on your team,in pubs the team that worked together and coordinated fire would win,the lone rangers would be easily picked off 1 at a time.

I guess you never played MW2 or MW3 then.
I prefer MW2: mercs and MW3 since they are closest to canon, down to damage figures and should be followed that way.
Imo MW4 did make MW more mainstream but in the process it screwed all over the rules that the TT had.


For example. Some mechs have more tonnage for no reason (aka the Dragon is the biggest offender), some have less and thus cannot fit their CBT fits.

For example the current MW4 Daishi would be considered under gunned and under armored.
14.5 tons of FF with 4 CERLL, 2 CUAC5, 1 cLRM20

CBT Daishi
19 tons of standard with 4 CERLL, 2 CUAC5, 4 cMpulse Lasers, 1 cLRM10

That is a world of difference right there on spare tonnage.


Now the MW4 Dragon
12 tons FF, 1 Hgauss, 1 AC5, 1 LRM10, 1 medium laser

Now the CBT Dragon
10 tons of standard, 1 AC5, 1 LRM10, 2 medium lasers
Even if u XL and endo the whole thing, that MW4 fit isn't gonna work and the MW4 variant goes at 91 kph or close to 6/9 movement ! What ?

Don't even get me started on the stock Owens boasting dual LRM-15s and 2 medpulse in MW4. The TT correct version only mounts 2x LRM-5s, 1x Mlas and 2x Smlas ! Even if u stripped out all the scouting equipment, you will still be hard press to fit even 1 LRM 15 launcher !!


There are rules sets for mech construction and much much more in TT. So I am glad that Piranha is working closing to the Table Top game instead of doing arbitrary nerfs or boost to a random mech ala MW4 style.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 26 November 2011 - 04:55 AM.

[Melissia]

[EDMW]CSN, on 26 November 2011 - 04:52 AM, said:

I prefer MW2: mercs and MW3 since they are closest to canon, down to damage figures and should be followed that way.

MW2 Mercs and MW3 were better, but it ahd nothing at all to do with them being "closest to canon"...

[Malavai Fletcher]

You are absolutely right,i picked up MW4 as my first game after buying my first pc.

Why are you comparing MW4 variants against CBT variants?They are 2 completely different games,the emphasis even in the campaign for MW4 early on was to customize your mech with the salvage at the end of each mission,in multiplayer you designed your mech according to what map and playstyle you were going to go with,and at times who was on the opposing team.In league play it took the customisation even deeper,the conversations i had with my clan mates about where to put the last half ton of armour was just daft!

If MW4 mechs were fighting CBT mechs then i could understand,but they never will,i never found the balance to be hugely off in MW4,i certainly never found any mech in MW4 to be badly nerfed or boosted,plus there was allways tinkering going on,which adressed some issues that arose.

[Cifu]

Honestly, we don't even know, what kind of customization put into the game.

Personally i think there is no good solution. If you degrade the customization, you still have to face there is better kind of canon loadouts / mech's. For example take the Awesome - 3x PPC plus a smal laser... you cannot beat this configuration of boating any of the Assault Mech's (well, except if they put the Charger into the game - indeed, the 5x Smal Laser is rather laughable... ).

[Belrick]

Boating is completely fine and legitimate. There are many canon mech designs which are boats. I think the main problem with boating / alpha strikes in mech games is the pin-point accuracy factor. In general you should not want to fire all your weapons at once as that will leave you with no backup should you miss.

If you make it so there is an incentive to not fire all your weapons at once (maybe more heat or technical problems, or just plain accuracy issues) we'll see less alphastriking. It may not cut down on boating in general, which isn't a problem at all: Smart boaters will alpha less, and dumb boaters will keep playing like its MW4.

[Melissia]

Heat issues are more than enough. Heat sinks aren't meant for containing massive spikes of heat after all, they're meant to contain a regular usage, so spikes should be more painful heat-wise than volleyfire.


So say a Nova decides to volleyfire. It can handle that, firing them in waves rather than all at once, though the more heat it builds up, the more it messes with your targeting system, making your reticle more erratic (and thus making aim more difficult, but still possible with skill-- none of this random cone bullshit). But if it decides to alpha strike even after it's cooled down completely, it risks shutting down-- or worse, permanently ruining internal structure, forcing them to spend money repairing damaged components and replacing lost ones. Worse comes to worse, it could explode.

[MaddMaxx]

Melissia, on 25 November 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

I still wonder what the people whining about "laser boats" wanting to restrict customization will do when they come across a canon 'mech variant which is, in fact, a "laser boat", like the Nova which has 12 ER Mediums in a 50 ton 'mech and more than enough heat sinks for the job.

Whine some more is my guess.

Clan Mech. Let's stay in the timeline for now please. No Nova at launch.

[Psydotek]

Like I said in a long winded way before... As long as there is a proper and significant downside, there's really no issue with having alpha strikes and boating included in the game. It can be anything from shutdown (alpha strike overheat) to being unable to easily shoot a light mech dancing around inside your minimum range (all LRMs and no small laser).

[Iron Horse]

Remove unlimited ammo! BT Rules were never designed so you could boat UAC20's w/out any consideration for ammo storage. Ammo weapons are balanced against energy weapons so you have to think before wasting ammo. UA is contrary to BTU.

Anyone who's played the Tesla Pod BT will tell you that despite pinpoint aiming and alpha strike capability, the stock configs help balance the gameplay. I'm not suggesting that as a fix, just stating it as a point. I like to have some say in which weapons I load out, and would be willing to pay some c-bills for customizations, if necessary.

I think some of the problems with alpha-striking have to do with over-customization and min-maxing (especially in MW3). I noticed in the game that using 8 LRM5's did more damage than 2 LRM20's for seemingly no reason (plus after taking a few crits more launch tubes would remain operational). I don't have a quick fix, but PGI should be mindful when it comes to balance and potential min-maxing. Skill should have more to do with piloting than abacus use, IMHO.

Edited by Iron Horse, 26 November 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[NetRDR]

i believe this is only a issue for those guys that run no heat and unlimited ammo games in arena type games if your alpha every other shot u goin to overheat and be ganked, if your running a boat of lasers u goin to overheat and get ganked, if your running a missle boat u have no weapon redundancy are goin to run out of ammo, are goin to overheat and get ganked. in a large battle where u are trading shots, with mixed ranges, and heat and ammo switched on this becomes a non issue,

[Melissia]

MaddMaxx, on 26 November 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Clan Mech. Let's stay in the timeline for now please. No Nova at launch.

The Awesome then. The clanners don't have an exclusive on laserboats.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Except it's a PPC boat

[Black Sunder]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 27 November 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

Except it's a PPC boat

A perfectly politically correct boat?

[Bloody]

you cannot balance alpha strike in this setting.

the main reason would be the players who favour Alpha strike will simply refuse to play on any map which does not allow their style of gameplay. It is like De_Dust on CS. Either they will play with a nice flat plain or they refuse to play. Looking at the amount of pro alpha strikers here, i would say the vast majority will refuse to play anything but the equivalent de_dust maps on this MW game. Shutdown is not an issue with Alpha strikers. Because they will engage at beyond maximum range , a 10 second shutdown is not a big deal, it take sa good couple of seconds for Missles for example to reach a target, by the time the Alpha striker will have rebooted and readied for the next Alpha.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

you cannot balance alpha strike in this setting.

the main reason would be the players who favour Alpha strike will simply refuse to play on any map which does not allow their style of gameplay. It is like De_Dust on CS. Either they will play with a nice flat plain or they refuse to play. Looking at the amount of pro alpha strikers here, i would say the vast majority will refuse to play anything but the equivalent de_dust maps on this MW game. Shutdown is not an issue with Alpha strikers. Because they will engage at beyond maximum range , a 10 second shutdown is not a big deal, it take sa good couple of seconds for Missles for example to reach a target, by the time the Alpha striker will have rebooted and readied for the next Alpha.

I fail to see how using an alpha strike is restricted to any type of map,and how on earth do you engage at beyond maximum range,your weapons will not hit.

[Zakatak]

There shouldn't be any specific "special treatment" applied to Alpha Strikes.

If you fire 10 medium lasers that do 3 damage and 3 heat, you get 30 damage and 30 heat. You don't need to balance Alpha Strikes, just heat management in general. Remove coolant, or make it a heavy piece of Equipment. Easy.

Edited by Zakatak, 27 November 2011 - 01:13 PM.

[Black Sunder]

Zakatak, on 27 November 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

Remove coolant...

Uhh, thats how heat sinks work......By taking heat from areas and spreading it around so it can dissipate.

Edited by Black Sunder, 27 November 2011 - 01:58 PM.