437 replies to this topic

[renegade mitchell]

With weapons convergence, alpha strike will not be an issue. Want to alpha strike? Then wait for your weapons to converge while taking fire from someone who will chain fire you, and throw off your aim. Also like to add, movement of a mech may lead to longer weapons convergence. Again my opinion, as we have not actually seen or played the game.

Edited by Renegade Mitchell, 03 March 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Sassori]

guardiandashi, on 03 March 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

really this comes back to the fundimental disconnect from mechwarrior (computer game) in previous incarnations, vs battletech board game

the root issue is what some people are calling "pinpoint accuracy" where the guns fire and hit exactly on the point of the crosshairs as if they were fired from the crosshairs not from the various locations where they are mounted on the chassis.

if you allow that to occur it completely kills the ballance that was established in the battletech base game which all the mechwarrior games are supposed to be based on.

additionally no weapon in history has EVER been 100% accurate EVERY single shot.

#394 [color=#ffa504]Christopher Dayson[/color] 's arguement that the delay/recycle times are something generated by the mechwarrior computer games is actually false. it actually has a long history in battletech coming from the "solaris VII boxed set" a resource which unfortunately has been discontinued

As long as I can remember (And my memory may be faulty) in the standard Battletech table top board game every weapon could be fired once per round. You could split fire at different targets, but each weapon could only fire once per round. Anything that came out in additional box sets (Such as the Solaris VII box) had optional rules in use for that specific situation.

The most common rules, the ones used on the major battlefields is, iirc, one shot per weapon per turn. Thus, a small laser had the same rate of fire as a ppc or an LRM. It wasn't until the Ultra AC's and pulse lasers (Which had their own rules) that made a weapon actually fire more than once per turn.

As soon as you start adding in fire rates, the weight/damage/heat ratios become unbalanced again unless modified. The more modifications made, the further we get from the core Battletech ruleset.

[Larry Headrick]

Ok 21 pages? wow.


The best way to fix the alpha strike? Remove the alpha strike.


In all the mech control couch pix i have seen I've never seen a big red button with Alpha Strike on it anywhere. all weapon systems are linked to a button either on the joystick or the throttle. this is how it should be. you can alpha if you can link all your weapons to different buttons and hit them all at the same time. Good luck with that. Firing weapons in a group no. Linked fire only. This solves all the problems without any kind of forced missing, or weapon inaccuracy. They cannot fire all at once so they will hit where you aim them. if you can keep all them hitting in the same spot as you bang the trigger you deserve to win. No to one click all weapons fire. Five weapons, five clicks.
This is how I would fix the problem myself and i think it is the best solution.

Feal free to disagree.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Larry Headrick, on 03 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Ok 21 pages? wow.


The best way to fix the alpha strike? Remove the alpha strike.


In all the mech control couch pix i have seen I've never seen a big red button with Alpha Strike on it anywhere. all weapon systems are linked to a button either on the joystick or the throttle. this is how it should be. you can alpha if you can link all your weapons to different buttons and hit them all at the same time. Good luck with that. Firing weapons in a group no. Linked fire only. This solves all the problems without any kind of forced missing, or weapon inaccuracy. They cannot fire all at once so they will hit where you aim them. if you can keep all them hitting in the same spot as you bang the trigger you deserve to win. No to one click all weapons fire. Five weapons, five clicks.
This is how I would fix the problem myself and i think it is the best solution.

Feal free to disagree.

I'd prefer a very similar, yet more convenient solution.

Select a group, fire it with trigger/mouse press.

However, weapons have a charge-up time. This time is different per weapon. The default charge-up time should be around 1/4 to 1/2 a second for smaller weapons like medium lasers, while larger weapons such as gauss and PPCs might be between 1/2 and 1 full second. HOWEVER, a random increase in charge-up time is applied per-weapon, in a huge range such as 100ms to 5000ms.

The more weapons in the group, the bigger the spread, and since it's randomized per-weapon, it'd be virtually impossible to mentally time the weapon discharges - they may happen at any point, making aiming a large bank of weapons an exercise in skill to keep the target in the crosshairs for a full five seconds.

Also, if the trigger is released, any weapons that haven't fired yet are not discharged, and heat is not added, useful for curtailing heat when firing those weapons is not required. However, the cooldown timer for those weapons must be fully reset, preventing people from going around half-charging their weapons for a fast strike.

The major difference over yours is that there is no chance of using macros or mousewheel exploits to fire faster than intended. Also, since the timing is randomized, it becomes an exercise in skill to keep the target in the sights when weapon discharge is not precisely

[edit] I just thought of this: Invisible detection boxes coming off regular IS PPC barrels; if objects are detected at close range, charge time increases. In a gradient, of course. Farther away=less charge time penalty, close range=more penalty. This would replicate the trouble IS standard PPCs have targeting close targets.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 03 March 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[ObsidianDeath]

I'm all for the use of an Alpha Strike on an enemy Mech and even though i'm not a fan of Chaining, it too has it's place like it or not! However the use of these methods has both it's pro's and con's like anything else i.e. over heating or long recycle/reload times. An if someone feels this is too much power then you need to look at other aspects to defeat them like terain, bounding in teams, speed and key points of movement in the AO to limit their ability. An if this is the future i'm sure having all weapons firing at the same time (if selected)on a single point isnt all that hard to do providing your target will stand still for a moment, keeping in mind "Life is cheap but Battle Mech's aren't".

Obsidian_Death
Clan: TImber Wolf
Rank: Black Widow/ Kashiek

[Sinitron]

It shouldn't be made more complex than necessary, though, there just needs to be a few drawbacks to just cramming a bunch of the same weapons together, especially for instant hit stuff.

[renegade mitchell]

ObsidianDeath, on 03 March 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

I'm all for the use of an Alpha Strike on an enemy Mech and even though i'm not a fan of Chaining, it too has it's place like it or not! However the use of these methods has both it's pro's and con's like anything else i.e. over heating or long recycle/reload times. An if someone feels this is too much power then you need to look at other aspects to defeat them like terain, bounding in teams, speed and key points of movement in the AO to limit their ability. An if this is the future i'm sure having all weapons firing at the same time (if selected)on a single point isnt all that hard to do providing your target will stand still for a moment, keeping in mind "Life is cheap but Battle Mech's aren't".

Obsidian_Death
Clan: TImber Wolf
Rank: Black Widow/ Kashiek

Actually with weapons convergence, the guy chain firing will have an advantage. Like I stated in my previous post, to alpha means waiting for all your weapons to converge. Leaving you at a disadvantage to those that chain fire and throw your aim off.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Sinitron, on 03 March 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

It shouldn't be made more complex than necessary, though, there just needs to be a few drawbacks to just cramming a bunch of the same weapons together, especially for instant hit stuff.

Or we can make it so nothing is really instant-hit. We're talking about weaponary on a power scale that is hard to imagine, needing some time to charge isn't really far-fetched.

[EDMW CSN]

With the new aiming systems things might change.

For one your torso weapons are not free floating aiming like the arms on your mechs.
So if you prefer accurate aiming, you need to mount the weapons in the arms, which are by far the easiest targets to be shot off due to low armor (except rear armor and head armor).

Now coupled with convergence of aim, this means that weapons on the arms still need time to align for an accurate shot, which may not be possible given the return fire from target and movement speed. You will still hit the target even if firing without waiting for full convergence, just that it will be lacking accuracy and cause the damage to spread out.

Snipers who want full front loaded precise damage will have to converge their reticles longer, which make them more open to return fire, artillery or missiles.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 03 March 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[SnowDragon]

Why all this Alpha hate? Look at MW3, you alpha'ed a Supanova and it blew right the F up. Alphaing is a last ditch attack method that, if done at the end of a fight to finish someone off, you'll overheat and shutdown. I don't see the problem.

Oh the otherhand, go on, prevent me from putting all my weapons in the same group. I'll just them in different weapon groups and press them all when I want to Alpha. Take away press to fire groups and make them select and fire? Okay, I'll just cycle through my armament groups and hit them all as quick as I can. You won't be able to remove AS from the game. And you shouldn't be trying. It's part of the canon.

[Belisarius1]

You can't really get rid of the alpha. Boats and alphas are always going to be efficient. All other things being equal, the reasons are simple;
If my weapons/heat are ready, I am ready to deal damage to the enemy
If I can see the enemy, I can deal damage to the enemy
If I can see the enemy, I am risking damage to myself
Therefore, if I can see the enemy and my weapons/heat are NOT ready, I am taking damage for no gain

Good players are always going to aim for situations in which they minimise risk and maximise damage. Most of the time, that means an alpha, because it has the most efficient exposure:damage ratio. You can make them harder to do, and you can minimise the number of 'Mechs with boatable hardpoints, but pop-and-shoot is always going to be a good tactic.

The other side of the coin is a knock-boat config, which I suspect most people would find just as cheap. Those are your options, gents, sorry. The classic battletech configs with a schizophrenic mix of ranges and damage types are just plain bad in a live-action game. There's no way to save them.

Thomas Hogarth, on 03 March 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I'd prefer a very similar, yet more convenient solution.

Select a group, fire it with trigger/mouse press.

However, weapons have a charge-up time. This time is different per weapon. The default charge-up time should be around 1/4 to 1/2 a second for smaller weapons like medium lasers, while larger weapons such as gauss and PPCs might be between 1/2 and 1 full second. HOWEVER, a random increase in charge-up time is applied per-weapon, in a huge range such as 100ms to 5000ms.

The more weapons in the group, the bigger the spread, and since it's randomized per-weapon, it'd be virtually impossible to mentally time the weapon discharges - they may happen at any point, making aiming a large bank of weapons an exercise in skill to keep the target in the crosshairs for a full five seconds.

I think the alpha should stay, because it's futile to try and get rid of it, but charge-up time is actually a very good idea that I would love to see implemented. I've always thought PPCs at least should have a charge time, because it's believable and also breaks up the good 'ol PPC/gauss one-two combo.

It also caters to the inaccuracy crowd, while leaving space for a pilot with steady hands and good timing to still place a shot well. A random time increase up to five seconds is totally insane, though. Five seconds is long enough for a lot of weapons to have fully cycled, for goodness' sakes. 10-500ms would be more than enough to throw a shot off.

[movingtarget]

i think we should be able to alpha at a cost , extra heat for cooking off all your guns , think someone else mentioned heatsink damage ,a overheated laser could damage nearby systems even more if 2 lasers are close to eachother could damage the weapon,

for missiles you could damage the launcher from the force of that many missiles flying off at once, do it many times in a row and you could cook off your ammo,

for acs the excess heat could warp the barel making it harder to aim and cost cbills to fix, keep it up and you might break the gun or set off the ammo bin

if its risky and could criple you if you abuse it im all for it, maybe have all the weapons in the group stagger fire unless you override it with a button so you cant mess up and fire an alpha when you didnt mean to.

Edited by movingtarget, 20 March 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[cinco]

disagree with the premise. alpha strikes are a valid tactic. and those who utilize them well deserve a greater chance of victory. this means players are forced to move tactically and carefully weight the option of exposure vs mobility.

limitations should be based on sensible parameters like overheating. a large laser array will require more cool downs and the space they take up will sacrifice multi purpose weapons like missiles and guns. these things naturally balance out.

[Pht]

Alpha striking wouldn't be a problem if the ability of a mech to handle it's weapons were modeled properly.


when firing a bunch of weapons at once, a 'mech is only as capable of hitting what's being targeted (by the pilot) as it's least accurate weapon.

That and if the weapons fire is not concentrated onto a single armor panel when the reticules are perfectly aligned would solve the problem.

[Seabear]

I favor a mech lab that allows for changes in secondary weaponry and requires that main weapons changes be more in line with size and ammo loads. If one wishes to reduce the size of an LRM launcher to allow for more ammo or increase the size (subject to the size of the slot) to increase the damage potential at the expense of ammo, I see no reason not to allow it. Usually, the variants will pretty much cover customization though.

Remember that some mechs are "boats" ie. Awesome (3PPCs), Flashman (3LLs), Catapult (LRM 15s). Each of these is self limiting as far as AS are concerned, either due to HS or ammo restrictions. Then there is the Nova with 12 ERMLs (that's a real laser boat), but don't try firing all 12 at once!. If the canon is followed, the over use of these "boat" mechs should resolve itself.

I do not favor too strict a limit on how many weapons may be grouped together if heat and recoil are included in the game. A mech with 2 or 3 AC20s fired at once should have a tremendous problem with recoil even with computer assistance. One should be able to fire as many or as few weapons at a time as he/she chooses. Chain fire is not the answer unless there is a very, very short time between individual firings. Then one is simply turning standard MLs into a sinlge rotary ML.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe a ripple fire of like of weapons? Fast and concentrated but allowing a target mech to avoid some of the weapons if it moves fast enough. Such a system would allow a series of weapons (like MLs) to do significant damage without turning it into a laser AC20. This is even in the canon. The Atlas' LRM launcher fires several misssles from each tube per salvo. Simple, easy and fits with the lore.

Edited by Seabear, 20 March 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Kurohyou]

Renegade Mitchell, on 03 March 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Actually with weapons convergence, the guy chain firing will have an advantage. Like I stated in my previous post, to alpha means waiting for all your weapons to converge. Leaving you at a disadvantage to those that chain fire and throw your aim off.

Last time I checked: Alpha strike is when all weapons are fired at the same time. If a pilot can control his/her mech heat management than so be it.

I'm for: Alpha Strkes, Legging, Head Shots, and Death from Above. To me: If your Red, your Dead

[Gwenaelle Focht]

Not seeing an issue in alpha strikes really as weapons will need to regenerate first prior to another alpha strike and also it is likely to be limited to a max of 2 consecutive alpha strikes (if the mech had been running cold before), otherwise it will just shutdown due to overheating, no matter with which weapon type(s) the mech will be equipped and how many of them (an alpha strike with 2 weapons is not really worth mentioning). Overall, alpha strikes are also a flawed strategy and should be used as a last option/desperate manoeuvre (to go down in a blaze of glory) as permanent fire with different weapons on an enemy mech is much more effective than salvos with all weapons followed by inactivity and defenselessness (these mechs will then make great targets for backstabbing attacks from light mechs).

I am pretty sure the programmers/developers will take this into consideration and I don't see a need to overregulate the gameplay by limiting a mech pilot's options on equipment (if he/she likes to bord, let them do it; personally, I would find this style rather one-dimensional and boring but IMHO it should be open for everyone). Alpha strikes should still have a place in MWO but I reckon that their repeated use will render these mech even more vulnerable, especially, since a fair amount of these weapons might miss the target, even if fired at very close proximity, as PPC fire may overshoot the target and MRMs/LRMs will not be armed prior to reaching their minimum range and do not more than distract the enemy pilot at whom the alpha strike was aimed at.

Edited by Gwenaelle Focht, 20 March 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[TyGeR STD]

I didn't read threw all 21 pages but my 2 cents, an Alpha strike is a high risk high gain move. in MW4 The most common "laser boat" mechs were the Mad Cat 6 ERLL an the Nova Cat 7ERLL configs, You could use these to snipe at range an do good damage but the trade off was you made alot of heat an had to take alot of time to cool off between shots. And if you are useing this time of mech an you let someone get close to you then you had alot of trouble on your hands an woudl probley be respawning soon. I see no problem with Boating or use Alpha Strikes, it has its trades offs that you have to make for doing it.

[Sheewa]

From what i've seen from gameplay video, it will be hard to shoot your alpha strike onto one single spot on the enemy mech too. So its fine.

[HighlandWolf]

They should keep it in, basically if you can afford to take the heat without shutting down..and you can wait long enough for your weapons to move into position(assuming they can ALL be put on or near crosshairs at the same time..remembering that weapons will be all over the mech not on the same arm or torso or shoulder)
simply put, if you want to try it..go ahead..but remember its not a guarantee all weapons will hit..the same place...only that all weapons will fire at once