68 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I am not supporting pin point convergent damage Mcgral... Never have. I am against convergence without the requirement of an Advanced targeting computer.

Yes, I am aware but PGI has state the engine can't handle multiple points of convergence, and you can't let go of you full 20 damage at the click of a button. That's what I've understood.

PGI also won't go and fix the large goof they made when coding weapons, so we've got the frontloaded meta. Lights suffer to a point, with the 20 tonners being absolutely useless since a single alpha will remove those under 20 armor legs.

If we ever get scouting objectives and other such things, lights might be chosen for more than ERLL ECM and ML boat, but as it is you get hit once and you're critically injured.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is because we are not playing MW:O yet. What planet have you concurred for your paymaster StJobe?

I don't know what game you're playing Joe (as in, I really, really, don't know what you think you're playing, what with your role-play and all), but I'm playing a game called MechWarrior Online, and it doesn't contain anything but fighting other 'mechs. It never has, and sometimes I doubt that it ever will.

To answer your question then, I haven't conquered [sic] any planets for any paymaster, because MWO has neither. It just has 5-10 minutes of 'mech fights, over and over and over. And then over again. Ad nauseam, as it were.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yes, I am aware but PGI has state the engine can't handle multiple points of convergence, and you can't let go of you full 20 damage at the click of a button. That's what I've understood.

PGI also won't go and fix the large goof they made when coding weapons, so we've got the frontloaded meta. Lights suffer to a point, with the 20 tonners being absolutely useless since a single alpha will remove those under 20 armor legs.

If we ever get scouting objectives and other such things, lights might be chosen for more than ERLL ECM and ML boat, but as it is you get hit once and you're critically injured.

Well an AC20 has one it that way since it was added. I would never take a 105mm AC20 what a 203mm one wrecks the enemy the way I like it to. So no I don't want to give up my AC20, or Gauss or 2 PPCs (which should have a chance to hit Center and Right/Left torso depending where the cross hairs lie. It is not a goof. AC2, AC5s, and AC10s work exactly how you are suggesting AC20s work. All ACs deliver 20 damage every 4+ seconds. There are players who like wielding BFGs Others want to dance the scars. I am a BFG player, if yo want a light mech, you choose to face heavy hitting weapons with less than adequate armor. 20 Damage has been ending Locusts for 30 years. Welcome to the CBT Universe.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Well an AC20 has one it that way since it was added. I would never take a 105mm AC20 what a 203mm one wrecks the enemy the way I like it to. So no I don't want to give up my AC20, or Gauss or 2 PPCs (which should have a chance to hit Center and Right/Left torso depending where the cross hairs lie. It is not a goof. AC2, AC5s, and AC10s work exactly how you are suggesting AC20s work. All ACs deliver 20 damage every 4+ seconds. There are players who like wielding BFGs Others want to dance the scars. I am a BFG player, if yo want a light mech, you choose to face heavy hitting weapons with less than adequate armor. 20 Damage has been ending Locusts for 30 years. Welcome to the CBT Universe.

...and now we can aim ALL of those weapons at one place and have a guarantee to hit them, unlike targeting computers.

Frontloaded damage causes imbalance. I say cut the damage, and make them fire faster. Same damage, but not so game breaking. I wouldn't be against buffing the other weapons, but TTK is already too low. Why bother doubling armor if you make weapons fire over twice as fast? Doesn't make sense...

[Foxfire]

And while it works that way in Battletech, we need to have a balanced game for an online game like this to be successful.

As is, the current mechanics makes the sub-30 ton mechs pointless death traps. There is already so much more in this game that is either modified or doesn't exist in Battletech in the name of trying to achieve a working game.

*edits to add*

Keep in mind, there really isn't any of the controls that BT had in place to make fielding light and medium mechs desirable.

Edited by Foxfire, 29 January 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[LORD TSARKON]

100 percent hit detection>? So SRMS would actually work in the game?

You would see a dramatic increase in firepower in Medium Mechs...

Medium Mech Power relies on SRMS.....

Unfortunately The Heavies and Assaults would benefit as well since they can carry more and Torso Twist almost as well as a Medium..

Heavies and Assaults really need a nerf in this game... big time

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 29 January 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I don't know what game you're playing Joe (as in, I really, really, don't know what you think you're playing, what with your role-play and all), but I'm playing a game called MechWarrior Online, and it doesn't contain anything but fighting other 'mechs. It never has, and sometimes I doubt that it ever will.

To answer your question then, I haven't conquered [sic] any planets for any paymaster, because MWO has neither. It just has 5-10 minutes of 'mech fights, over and over and over. And then over again. Ad nauseam, as it were.

No role play SJobe. Well none more than I am playing with the guys from Murphy's Law we want to take a contract from the Lyran Alliance to garrison Hesperus II. That is what Merc Corps will be doing in this game when CW arrive. the DEVs have said as much. We have to purchase dropships to transport us from point A to point B. I o no have to pretend I am Joe, an have dialog with the Lone Wolf StJobe. Any more than I am role playing here on the forum. The only difference is I swear less here than on comms!

So you are still not playing MW:O either Cause we have yet to drop against the Clans that was part of the promised game.

[Mcgral18]

LORD TSARKON, on 29 January 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

100 percent hit detection>? So SRMS would actually work in the game?

You would see a dramatic increase in firepower in Medium Mechs...

Medium Mech Power relies on SRMS.....

Unfortunately The Heavies and Assaults would benefit as well since they can carry more and Torso Twist almost as well as a Medium..

Heavies and Assaults really need a nerf in this game... big time

A mobility/torso twist nerf would work wonders, since they could no longer swat a light away 1 VS 1, and rely on meds or other more agile allies to help him. Making turning with heavier JJs less effective would also work nicely, and make jump turning in assaults less effective, but not affecting meds and lights.

[Adiuvo]

Khobai, on 29 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

If assault mechs couldnt track lights thered be zero reason to play assault mechs anymore. the entire role of an assault mech is being able to beat most other mechs in 1v1 combat.

conversely, the role of a light mechs isnt countering assaults. its not even supposed to be combat. light mechs are for scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare, fighting other lights, harassing support mechs, and finishing off damaged enemy mechs.

its completely absurd that light mech pilots think they should beat assaults 1v1. instead light mech pilots should be pushing for non-combat roles to be strengthened, so light mechs can contribute to their team winning without having to compete with heavies and assaults at combat.

There are no non-combat roles in this game, and there probably never will be. The maps aren't big enough for true scouting, and if they were the game would be terrible for anyone moving under 75kph. Furthermore, something like a Jenner isn't a scout mech in lore or in game. It's a brawling light.

Assault mechs are supposed to be good in entrenched positions and with teammates. If they get ambushed they need to have some kind of weakness, and lights/mediums are the only things that can ambush. If you play an assault mech you can't have all the weapons, all the armor, and all the speed. This isn't a single player game. If you want to feel invincible just by taking a mech class go play MW4 single player with heat disabled.

Even if ambushed an assault mech can currently kill a light without much of a problem. Aiming is stronger than dodging in every game created, and when you stick 2 top tier pilots - assault and light - together the assault mech is going to win 9/10 times.

Edited by Adiuvo, 29 January 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

...and now we can aim ALL of those weapons at one place and have a guarantee to hit them, unlike targeting computers.

Frontloaded damage causes imbalance. I say cut the damage, and make them fire faster. Same damage, but not so game breaking. I wouldn't be against buffing the other weapons, but TTK is already too low. Why bother doubling armor if you make weapons fire over twice as fast? Doesn't make sense...

I won't argue with this! Its sorta stupid that we have 2.5 times the cyclic rate of fire, double the armor but a full 10 seconds for our sinks to do what took 3 seconds(?) of a TT turn!

Front loaded damage does not cause an Imbalance. To much Pin Point front loaded damage does. I want less TTK my opponents cause that's how I like to roll. I want you dead before you can kill me. rinse wash repeat. If I die in 2 seconds or two minutes should only matter if it was you getting the drop on me. And thus My fault I died poorly anyway.

[Foxfire]

Unfortunately, nothing will be done about pin point damage. The only thing we can try to get to fix it is a limitation on the amount of front load damage so that you have to spend more time aiming to make sure that you apply full damage.. thus making it more likely that you will spread the damage over multiple components.

PGI has limited themselves to the engine that they can use by not getting the full support of the Crytek guys to save money.. thus we have try to get balance within the confines of what the engine can do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Unfortunately, nothing will be done about pin point damage. The only thing we can try to get to fix it is a limitation on the amount of front load damage so that you have to spend more time aiming to make sure that you apply full damage.. thus making it more likely that you will spread the damage over multiple components.

PGI has limited themselves to the engine that they can use by not getting the full support of the Crytek guys to save money.. thus we have try to get balance within the confines of what the engine can do.

That one thing makes me sad. I want my front loaded damage. Taking it out of the game would make it just another DPS button mash. I cannot stand having to click my mouse 12-50 times to kill Rakghouls with a light saber. A weapon that cuts through a foot of metal like butter!

I like that we have FLD, DpS and RNG al mixed together. I don't like how some players abuse the Hard Point system. Bu I can beat a good many of those players. Enough so that I don't complain about it often.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I can't see them fixing anything anytime soon^TM. They've been advertising jobs since before closed beta. They may well have considered what would happen if HSR worked perfectly - and decided to not go there. It's already been said that SRM hit detection problems won't even be looked at until after UI2.
As for CW, it will be more of the same, with perhaps a few "new" game modes until probably some time next year.
but it's not all bad - we can buy Clan mechs!
When they said that they would be launching with a minimum viable product, i expected that their priority would be on improving the product at a greater then glacial pace. At least they have a good art/mech design section so they can keep on churning out mechs for us to buy.

[wanderer]

Quote

its completely absurd that light mech pilots think they should beat assaults 1v1. instead light mech pilots should be pushing for non-combat roles to be strengthened, so light mechs can contribute to their team winning without having to compete with heavies and assaults at combat.

It's patently dimwitted to think that an unsupported assault 'Mech can't be outmaneuvered and chewed to death if they're dumb, too.

The assault 'Mech caught alone in the wide open is the WWII bomber without his fighter escort. He may have the firepower to bring down a light, but cannot easily apply it. The light can, with enough passes, destroy the assault for the same reasons any 'Mech with a gun can kill another- if you can shoot them and live to do it again, eventually ANYTHING will go down.

On the other hand, put your back to cover in that big clunker and your light has to stay in your field of fire. If your aim is good, that's a scout kill for you in no time if he's a bad gambler, and a retreating scout if he's a smart one.

[Foxfire]

I've fought since closed beta to get some form of a convergence system in the game but this is what it came down to. Just like how we cant get different camera views ala PoV cameras. The engine that they use doesn't support it and the only ways to fix it is to try to convince PGI to spend the money to get the support they need to make these things work.. or to try to get mechanics that work around the limitations implemented in the game.

[Trauglodyte]

Foxfire, on 28 January 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Assuming that 100% accuracy can be achieved with hit detection.. what role will light mechs have with so many weapons having instant front-load damage?


Even with imperfect hit detection, you already see an issue where people who know how to aim can devastate light mechs with the heavier AC's and PPC's.

So how do you ultimately allow a viable role on the battlefield(given the complete failure of role warfare in this game thus far) with reliable hit detection with the current state of weapon damage for light mechs?

They'd do what they were designed to do. Scout, kill other lights, isolate and help kill mechs that have been isolated, etc. What would happen is that all players would learn that you can't simply rely on speed, JJs, and the possibility of broken hit boxes to shrug off damage that would otherwise decimate you. Lights were never intended to be 20-35 ton Assault mechs. So, they'd, ya know, go back to being actual Lights.

[Foxfire]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

They'd do what they were designed to do. Scout, kill other lights, isolate and help kill mechs that have been isolated, etc. What would happen is that all players would learn that you can't simply rely on speed, JJs, and the possibility of broken hit boxes to shrug off damage that would otherwise decimate you. Lights were never intended to be 20-35 ton Assault mechs. So, they'd, ya know, go back to being actual Lights.

Three things:

The first being that, even if you play a light like a light(thus sticking to heavy cover, spotting, flanking, and the like), all it takes is a moment of exposure to be decimated in the current meta. So you can be the most meticulous light and still be removed from the match by one good shot(either through outright destruction or through crippling damage).

The second being that there are certain light mechs were were designed specifically for the striker/flanker role. As in, they were intended to play hit and run attacks, ambushes, and flanking attacks. The Jenner, the X variant Ravens, and Commandos are the bigger ones that fit into this role. So no, while they shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with an assault mech, they should have a role to play in combat.

Which brings me to my third point. The current game set up does little to reward or encourage non-combat roles being filled. Outside of scouting for initial contact, there really isn't a practical benefit to filling those roles. Even playing the spotter for a dedicated missile group has its limitations given how easy it is to be counter-spotted. The onus right now is on combat and, for the foreseeable future, will be only on combat in this game.

[Trauglodyte]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Three things:

The first being that, even if you play a light like a light(thus sticking to heavy cover, spotting, flanking, and the like), all it takes is a moment of exposure to be decimated in the current meta. So you can be the most meticulous light and still be removed from the match by one good shot(either through outright destruction or through crippling damage).

The second being that there are certain light mechs were were designed specifically for the striker/flanker role. As in, they were intended to play hit and run attacks, ambushes, and flanking attacks. The Jenner, the X variant Ravens, and Commandos are the bigger ones that fit into this role. So no, while they shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with an assault mech, they should have a role to play in combat.

Which brings me to my third point. The current game set up does little to reward or encourage non-combat roles being filled. Outside of scouting for initial contact, there really isn't a practical benefit to filling those roles. Even playing the spotter for a dedicated missile group has its limitations given how easy it is to be counter-spotted. The onus right now is on combat and, for the foreseeable future, will be only on combat in this game.

Point 1: I own and have mastered all three Locusts so I'm aware. I've also mastered the Commando and all variants of the Cicada. So, again, I know.

Point 2: I'm also aware of that. The point that I was making is that playing hit and run means that you hit and then run. Instead, what we have is hit, circle while hitting, hitting some more, laughing as everyone misses as you JJ away, etc. Great Jenner and Spider pilots don't play h&r cause they don't have to. On the other side, the poor Locust, Mando, Raven, and Cicada pilots have a much less window in which to operate. Wonder why that is? Hrm...

Point 3: Exactly and it is what many of us have been wanting forever. Stjobe is the loudest of them all on it and I always back him up. I love Scouting but I get nothing for it because I don't carry Tag and most people don't run LRMs worth a damn. Opening up information lines on a map isn't needed and finding the enemy can be done by anyone.

[Jman5]

Long Range Harassers with ER LL, or PPCs.

That is the only role I can see lights playing in the long run as netcode improves and players just get better at aiming in general. These guys are not going to survive in the current role you see many of them in which are short range builds that weave around combat. All it takes is one or two lucky hits from a big pinpoint alpha and you die. I am already doing it all the time with my AC/20. I just blast at it a couple times and eventually something sticks and he loses a leg, or half his weapons, or even gets insta-cored.

The only way I see this changing is if PGI does something drastic about pinpoint damage, or significantly increases mech health.

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

stuff

As for the OP, had PGI implemented weapons properly, cutting the damage and heat by their recycle (and adding the same ratio for ammo) we could have stuck with stock armor, and lights would likely be pretty much just as effective as now.

Why go through all that rigamarole though, if only to end up, as you yourself stated, pretty much at the same place we are now?

So in other words.

A + B + C = L

or

K = A + B + C

(substitute L for K when you tire of L or as required)

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 January 2014 - 11:48 AM.