68 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

I've fought since closed beta to get some form of a convergence system in the game but this is what it came down to. Just like how we cant get different camera views ala PoV cameras. The engine that they use doesn't support it and the only ways to fix it is to try to convince PGI to spend the money to get the support they need to make these things work.. or to try to get mechanics that work around the limitations implemented in the game.

Then I support fixing the problem and forget about anther bandage.

[Foxfire]

Unfortunately it appears that the engine that is used now is the engine that they will stay with. This means something has to be done to address the issues raised by this limitation.

As such, I support making AC's into burst weapons that works similar to the MG with the exception of the CoF and non-continuous fire. This still leaves the PPC's and Gauss as front load weapons but at least you have trade-offs with both of those weapons for the ability. You would have to leave them as is(and I'd say the AC/2 as well) since they are intended for long range/sniping role weapons.

[stjobe]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

As such, I support making AC's into burst weapons that works similar to the MG with the exception of the CoF and non-continuous fire. This still leaves the PPC's and Gauss as front load weapons but at least you have trade-offs with both of those weapons for the ability. You would have to leave them as is(and I'd say the AC/2 as well) since they are intended for long range/sniping role weapons.

I've suggested this numerous times, but there are a couple of very vocal, very frequent posters that don't like the idea and do their very best to shout (not shoot, shout) it down whenever they see it.

I'm half thinking of suggesting lasers should be continuous-fire beam weapons next, just to see if they'll go apoplectic

[Almond Brown]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Unfortunately it appears that the engine that is used now is the engine that they will stay with. This means something has to be done to address the issues raised by this limitation.

As such, I support making AC's into burst weapons that works similar to the MG with the exception of the CoF and non-continuous fire. This still leaves the PPC's and Gauss as front load weapons but at least you have trade-offs with both of those weapons for the ability. You would have to leave them as is(and I'd say the AC/2 as well) since they are intended for long range/sniping role weapons.

So if they turn the AC5, the AC10 and the AC20 into burst style weapons, the game is fixed pretty much? Cool. I say go for it.

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 29 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

So if they turn the AC5, the AC10 and the AC20 into burst style weapons, the game is fixed pretty much? Cool. I say go for it.

Don't forget the PPC!

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 29 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why go through all that rigamarole though, if only to end up, as you yourself stated, pretty much at the same place we are now?

So in other words.

A + B + C = L

or

K = A + B + C

(substitute L for K when you tire of L or as required)

Mediums will get a pretty solid buff, and while lights will have less armor, that damage would likely get spread more (jenner aside). Torso twisting becomes actually possible agaisnt the AC20, since it would fire 3-5 shots to reach 20 damage over a 10 second period.

[Foxfire]

Almond Brown, on 29 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

So if they turn the AC5, the AC10 and the AC20 into burst style weapons, the game is fixed pretty much? Cool. I say go for it.

While I don't think that it will fix everything... I do think that it would be a big step in the right direction. Frontloading damage has been the meta of this game for ages and has led to arbitrary systems like ghost heat. Those who are interested in min/maxing will gravitate to weapons like the PPC and Gauss if this change was put in place.. but at least this change would close the gap between non PPC Energy weapons and missiles and ballistic weapons.

[Foxfire]

I think it ultimately comes to the question..What is the point of running a light mech right now?

In Pugs, there is no point.. in organized groups... not much point after the first contact..

Even if you run in majority cover.. if you try to contribute to the current game, you get thoroughly decimated with the multitude of front load damage builds that exist on anything heavy and above

[stjobe]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

I think it ultimately comes to the question..What is the point of running a light mech right now?

Same as it ever was; speed = fun. Low speed = no fun, high speed = lots of fun.

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Even if you run in majority cover.. if you try to contribute to the current game, you get thoroughly decimated with the multitude of front load damage builds that exist on anything heavy and above

Oh, you meant like that ().

Not much point, no. Go Heavy or Go Home seems to be the guiding principle of this game.

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Don't forget the PPC!

Didn't forget it. Thought it best that if the Ballistic side had 1 pin pointer, the Energy side should have 1 as well. We can manage the 5 point damage variance by chalking that up to there being a firing delay mechanic on the GR.

[Almond Brown]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

While I don't think that it will fix everything... I do think that it would be a big step in the right direction. Frontloading damage has been the meta of this game for ages and has led to arbitrary systems like ghost heat. Those who are interested in min/maxing will gravitate to weapons like the PPC and Gauss if this change was put in place.. but at least this change would close the gap between non PPC Energy weapons and missiles and ballistic weapons.

What kind of scares me about this type of change is the "fundamental" shift it introduces to the BT base. Why not just reduce the Energy weapons beam times by some value (50% to start) and leave the ballistics as they are meant to, and have always, been.

What the hell do you tell the "new player" who fires an AC20 but only gets 8 damage? Talk about your WTF kinda moment.

You think trying to explain GH is confusing to them?

Edited by Almond Brown, 30 January 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

What the hell do you tell the "new player" who fires an AC20 but only gets 8 damage? Talk about your WTF kinda moment.

You tell them "aim better".

The whole idea with burst-fire mechanics is that it fires a short burst (yeah, I know, the clue is in the title) with each pull of the trigger.

Each burst is worth 20 points of damage.

If the burst is 5 shots, and only 2 connect, yes, you'll only get 8 damage.

Hence, "aim better".

On that note, what do you tell a new player that fires a Large Laser but only gets 4 damage (my current average damage per hit with LLs)? Isn't the LL listed at 9 damage?

Talk about your WTF kinda moment, right?

Yeah, yeah I know. I should "aim better"...

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 29 January 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I've suggested this numerous times, but there are a couple of very vocal, very frequent posters that don't like the idea and do their very best to shout (not shoot, shout) it down whenever they see it.

I'm half thinking of suggesting lasers should be continuous-fire beam weapons next, just to see if they'll go apoplectic

No no, I try to shoot it down. If I were trying to shout it down, it would already be a dead topic!

[Firewuff]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

And while it works that way in Battletech, we need to have a balanced game for an online game like this to be successful.

As is, the current mechanics makes the sub-30 ton mechs pointless death traps. There is already so much more in this game that is either modified or doesn't exist in Battletech in the name of trying to achieve a working game.

*edits to add*

Keep in mind, there really isn't any of the controls that BT had in place to make fielding light and medium mechs desirable.

Every time I see this is is almost funny. I took out 3 mechs in a commando with single heatsinks and not even all the basics mastered. 2 were heavies and one was an assult. Only thing that stopped me was I lost my med laser and ran out of SRM ammo. You can'tpull 1k damage but on that occasion iI did over 500.

If you think they are death traps your doing it wrong.

Rules for light pilots

DONT go toe to toe with an atlas or pretty much any other mech
ENGAGE enemy that are already damaged or engaged in a fight with some one else. They will likely ignore you to their peril
USE cover. Remember that rock that only gets to an assaults waist will give you full cover
USE your speed. Flank and attack from behind while the assults play pushy face.
BE patient sometimes waiting an extra 2 second befor breaking cover will make them think you ran off
BACK OUT OF COVER... If you need to get behind it again you are far fast moving forward

You will occasionally get a twin ac20 to the face but in most mechs that can be deadly or almost so. Accept that and be braver than these chichenshits in pusst armored underpants

[Foxfire]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

What kind of scares me about this type of change is the "fundamental" shift it introduces to the BT base. Why not just reduce the Energy weapons beam times by some value (50% to start) and leave the ballistics as they are meant to, and have always, been.

What the hell do you tell the "new player" who fires an AC20 but only gets 8 damage? Talk about your WTF kinda moment.

You think trying to explain GH is confusing to them?

Two problems with that suggestion. The first one is that it does nothing to address what I am talking about. The second is that you have to approach zero duration for beam style weapons to make them balanced with AC weapons.. which would further exaggerate what I am talking about.

Firewuff, on 30 January 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Every time I see this is is almost funny. I took out 3 mechs in a commando with single heatsinks and not even all the basics mastered. 2 were heavies and one was an assult. Only thing that stopped me was I lost my med laser and ran out of SRM ammo. You can'tpull 1k damage but on that occasion iI did over 500.

If you think they are death traps your doing it wrong.

Rules for light pilots

DONT go toe to toe with an atlas or pretty much any other mech
ENGAGE enemy that are already damaged or engaged in a fight with some one else. They will likely ignore you to their peril
USE cover. Remember that rock that only gets to an assaults waist will give you full cover
USE your speed. Flank and attack from behind while the assults play pushy face.
BE patient sometimes waiting an extra 2 second befor breaking cover will make them think you ran off
BACK OUT OF COVER... If you need to get behind it again you are far fast moving forward

You will occasionally get a twin ac20 to the face but in most mechs that can be deadly or almost so. Accept that and be braver than these chichenshits in pusst armored underpants

Funny thing is, I do pretty much all of those.. and I get quite a few matches where I get 3-4 kills by picking off the damaged targets because I waited to hit weakened targets. I've also had quite a few matches where I'm either removed from the match early or outright destroyed because someone noticed me and took a pop shot that drilled one of my legs or hit my back armor.

I wouldn't mind having that vulnerability if I had something to contribute outside of being a mid-late match vulture. This mindset requires that you don't really contribute a lot to the match for the initial phases. It is also very dependent upon both the map types and the areas that the fighting is happening on each maps.

Flanking and hit and run styles work great in maps with ample cover.. your Frozen City, Crimson Straights(the city areas), city areas of River City, and certain areas of Tourmaline Desert. To a lesser extent, you can get away with it in the Canyons if you have jump-jets. What options are there in more open maps? Alpine Peaks, Terra Therma(to a lesser extent but spread out enough to make the style harder), Forest Colony(where the options are going choke points that are typically heavily guarded or open spaces that can be hit from said choke points).

I accept that the light mechs should be vulnerable and I don't try to go toe to toe with heavy and assault mechs.. but there needs to be a viable contribution that you can make throughout all phases of a match that is speed based to justify trading durability and firepower for speed.

So yes, I can spend half a match with limited contribution so that I can pick off a few kills but I can't help but feel that, with the current set up of the game, I would be able to contribute more to my team if I loaded up my Battlemaster or Cataphract.

Edited by Foxfire, 02 February 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

BarHaid, on 29 January 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Raiding. Oh yes, that is what I want out of CW. The ability to drop two lances of lights on a planet, use those hand actuators for something, and escape with all the opposing force's supplies!

This would be an interesting match type to try out. The raiding team earns rewards by a how much is actually carried off to a evacuation point, and how many assets are destroyed. Wile the defending team earns points by how much is saved. Along with combat damage of course.

[C E Dwyer]

BarHaid, on 29 January 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Raiding. Oh yes, that is what I want out of CW. The ability to drop two lances of lights on a planet, use those hand actuators for something, and escape with all the opposing force's supplies!

Commando and Spider to the rescue..

[BarHaid]

Cathy, on 02 February 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

Commando and Spider to the rescue..

And that's why I have them mastered. Just waiting for the day those hands become more than decorations.

[Roland]

Khobai, on 29 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

conversely, the role of a light mech isnt countering assaults. its not even supposed to be combat. light mechs are for scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare, fighting other lights, harassing support mechs, and finishing off damaged enemy mechs.

its completely absurd that light mech pilots think they should beat assaults 1v1. instead light mech pilots should be pushing for non-combat roles to be strengthened, so light mechs can contribute to their team winning without having to compete with heavies and assaults at combat.

This is all totally false.

Light mechs most certainly are supposed to have combat as a primary role. Generally, killing mechs is what you do in battletech.

I enjoy piloting a light mech. I enjoy killing mechs with it. It is a very different experience than killing mechs with other weight classes.

I have no desire to have my light mechs relegated to some kind of silly non-combat role. The point of this game is combat.

[Tesunie]

Foxfire, on 28 January 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Assuming that 100% accuracy can be achieved with hit detection.. what role will light mechs have with so many weapons having instant front-load damage?


Even with imperfect hit detection, you already see an issue where people who know how to aim can devastate light mechs with the heavier AC's and PPC's.

So how do you ultimately allow a viable role on the battlefield(given the complete failure of role warfare in this game thus far) with reliable hit detection with the current state of weapon damage for light mechs?

My personal thought process with this question is, once we have hit detection and HSR fully up and running, slowing down convergence would probably be a good idea. Then, counter to a lot of other people (of course in my opinion), skill would change from "twitch and shoot" to "hold the reticule over my target for a few moments to let my weapons converge, then shoot". Skill sets would become different, and I think overall needed skill to play well would be better. (It would improve "skill needed" to play the game, as many people complain about this game becoming a "skilless game".)

Slower convergence would help protect lights, as it's hard to keep a bead on them which would make getting convergence difficult, but would also make most light mechs harder to aim with as well, as you move so fast it's hard to keep your own reticule over an enemy all the time as well. Speed could (if lights are found to have too much of an advantage) make convergence even slowing to gain as another concept, meaning moving slower helps with aiming, but moving faster would help with defense... and you might have to choose which advantage at which time. (Might also encourage more true to lore roles, such as heavies/assaults moving slower. I could see twist speed might need to be desinked from engine size as well, depending upon results.) ACs would require some patients, and lasers would gain the role of a "fast response" weapon system. AKA: ACs would rather wait for full convergence (which could be signed with your reticule turning gold), and lasers could be fired before convergence is gained, and slowly hone into a target (or still splash their damage all over the place).

Biggest problem with adding in a slower convergence would be "I aimed and shot, why didn't I hit!" being a major complaint, and would probably only make the learning curve steeper... Many people wouldn't understand the concept, or would (as I see with chain fire since Ghost heat) overreact to these changes by standing still to shoot.

Any system implemented would have it's goods and it's bads. Pros and cons. I don't think there is ever going to be a perfect system that everyone could agree on...