48 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 30 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

its comparing and stating the obvious fact that you missed about the point you were trying to make about combining weapons fire. That being you can easily apply combined weapons fire from other weapon types so why should LRMs be treated any differently in this regard.

Where did I mention anything about combining weapons?

Noesis, on 30 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Having a hissy fit (god knows why) about posting about ballistics is your prerogative but I made a valid point with respect to the thread, just your logic was/is missing a gear.

You're really reaching....

[Trauglodyte]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 30 January 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

You have to boat the hell out of them to make them any good and thats ****** up
it should not be like this... ill make it the more missles you have in the air at one time the less accurate thay become. You can say the targeting computer is getting over loaded. doing this people will stop boating them it will not be worth it and we can buff them back up some. Thank of it as a buff nerf. Maybe more than 2 racks in the air at one time?

I know some chassis were built to boat LRMs like the archer so thy can have quarks to allow a little more missles..

At the risk of possibly sounding like a jerk, have you ever considered that you're just really bad at using them? People that boat LRMs realize that most of them don't hit so they boat to over compensate. People don't typically do a good job of hitting with LRMs because they rely mostly on indirect fire. Outside of that, they fire off targets that are at or near extreme range. Therefore, you're getting much less out of your tonnage used than you should. So, instead of saying that they're bad (they're not), how about you try to play better with them and not make a thread about it when it isn't true? Of course, you could just ignore that and continue on with the post. That is up to you.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 30 January 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Where did I mention anything about combining weapons?

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3111744

Just over an hour ago. Team collaboration combining weapon fire.

Quote

You're really reaching....

Nah, just saying how it is. And reminding you to stick your pseudo moderation where the sun don't shine.

[Sandpit]

I said more missile tubes. Explain to me how that translates to combined weapons?

No, I didn't tell you to do anything, i said I'M not going to be sucked into discussing ballistics with you in this thread. period. Again, you're reaching a bit sir.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 30 January 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I said more missile tubes. Explain to me how that translates to combined weapons?

You specifically talked about teammates working together and that each of these team mates then having a number of tubes. Thus your point talks about combining more than one team mate with others for "combined" effectiveness. The relevancy of that point being what happens when you apply team work for focus fire.

This can be done with other weapon models already such that team mates can for example combine direct fire support with AC/PPC.

So I was simply stating that the model of combining valid weapons fire from more than one mech with team work where it is currently effective shouldn't detract from the idea that it is then valid to do so with LRMs.

---

The example used then helps to provide a useful comparison for this point. Which you incorrectly claimed isn't valid and from a perspective of being more concerned with other peoples posting behaviour. Something you feel happy to liberally feel capable of imposing on others despite not being a moderator it seems.

[Prezimonto]

Oh boy, can we get back on topic?

The issue really boils down to single vs. multi- hard point use. Missile require multi-hard point use to do significant damage (whether from a single mech or multiple mechs with single hard points in the current state of the game). AC's work well with single weapons and arguably over perform for the risk when multiples are used. I think that's a fair comparison. I'd prefer to compare again to lasers, which are much more commonly used in packs. Are LRM5's a good trade vs. a medium lasers? I don't think so, in most situations when you stack utility and tonnage up against easy of use and damage output.... which I enumerated in a post around here somewhere (can't even remember which thread on LRM's it's in).

[RamataKhan]

This is my highest K/D mech

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4e1996ada62417e

LRMs are fine for me.

[Khobai]

LRMs are fine in pug games. But try taking them into 12 mans with ecm everywhere lol.

[Charons Little Helper]

K/D is a rather poor statistic when figuring out the worth of a weapon system. (or anything else for that matter)

When going LRM heavy and your team wins - you're unlikely to have died.

On the other hand, brawlers often die even when their team wins.

That doesn't mean that the brawler isn't any less impactful upon the battle. Far from it.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

LRMs are fine in pug games. But try taking them into 12 mans with ecm everywhere lol.

Until Narc gets a buff. Then I think it will give Narc more use and cut down on the ecm coverages

[Steel Claws]

I would argue that LRMs are better in smaller numbers. I've had good luck with just 20-30 tubes and it's usually enough to make people complain about getting LRMed to death. Then you have more weight and space for other weapons so that wen you run into map where there' too much cover to use hem well - you still have other weapons. I like having some ML and LL along for the ride - or some PPCs. If you are one trick pony - you will often get ridden into the dust. Boating LRMs is just a bad idea. Yes you will some times have really good games but then you get River City or Terra Therma.

Also most people try to use them at too extreme of range. Unless the target is a complete {Dezgra}, it's a waste of time and ammo to shoot LRMs beyond 700 meters. Between 200 - 500 meters is the butter zone. Oh but you say LRM boats shouldn't be that close..... Hense why you should load other enough other weapons.

[Holding in your farts]

LRMs destroy new players because trial mechs don't have effective ways to counter them. PGI shooting themselves in the foot again.

Edited by A banana in the tailpipe, 31 January 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

non-boated lrms are actually better. just grab 1 lrm 20 or a 15 or 2 10's. then toss on some PPC/laser/whatever. take a tag. take a ballistic. now you have a near meta mech with some fire supression too.

oh, and hope the other team isnt pop-tarting/ecming, cause then its pretty much always pointless taking lrms.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 31 January 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

LRMs destroy new players because trial mechs don't have effective ways to counter them. PGI shooting themselves in the foot again.

Pretty much everything destroys players in trial mechs. The problem is the trial mechs just arnt any good because of the broken heat system.

Quote

Until Narc gets a buff. Then I think it will give Narc more use and cut down on the ecm coverages

Doubt it. If NARC cancels ECM in the same way as PPCs then it will only disable ECM on the mech its attached to. That means NARC will be completely ineffective against multiple overlapping ECMs (and its very common in 12mans to have 4+ ecm per team). You would literally have to NARC every single ECM mech which isnt feasible.

A better idea than buffing NARC would be to completely remove the overpowered stealth bubble on ECM. PGI obviously realizes ECM is a huge problem, but they keep messing around adding horribly situational counters (TAG, PPCs, BAP, and now NARC), instead of just removing the aspect of ECM thats overpowered.

[Holding in your farts]

Khobai, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Pretty much everything destroys players in trial mechs. The problem is the trial mechs just arnt any good because of the broken heat system.

Trial mechs are champions. Is PGI deliberately sabotaging quality mechs?

[Khobai]

Quote

Trial mechs are champions. Is PGI deliberately sabotaging quality mechs?

All champion mechs mean is that you get an experience bonus for using them. It doesnt mean theyre quality mechs. Theyre actually based on official loadouts from the tabletop game... loadouts which dont work good at all in MWO because of the ludicrous heat system.

[Selfish]

Khobai, on 31 January 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

All champion mechs mean is that you get an experience bonus for using them. It doesnt mean theyre quality mechs. Theyre actually based on official loadouts from the tabletop game... loadouts which dont work good at all in MWO because of the ludicrous heat system.

Original trial mechs are the mechs based off TT loadouts. Champions are revisions made by devs to mimic popular playstyles they find in the game. Some, like the BJ-1 Champion, are near optimal builds. Champions are fine as trial mechs as long as players aren't suckered into buying them. There's no utility in a champion mech for a player as experience is easy to gain and its usefulness quickly caps out.

[Rushin Roulette]

Khobai, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Pretty much everything destroys players in trial mechs. The problem is the trial mechs just arnt any good because of the broken heat system.

Have you even played the trial mechs? It has been a while since they changed from the stock loadout to various Champion mech loadouts. The trial mechs are not really that bad any more and a far shot from what they used to be. Handled correctly they are even competitive enough against the meta (if you dont take the drops too seriously).

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 31 January 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

LRMs seemed to be working perfectly last night. I was caught alone in the open on Terra Therma, an I was destroyed by Incoming missiles. That is in fact how they are meant to work!

[Mr 144]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

But many Mechs, with a LRM10 each, can unload a lot of hurt if fired on the same target. Its a part of that team work concept that we just don't apply properly.

I tried this once.

I'm a big fan of "good" mixed builds when pugging and do very well in them...in fact better than "meta" builds. So, one day a tried getting a lance together with mixed builds including at least some token LRMs each. For whatever reasons, we did not "gell" well together, which is wierd 'cause I played with these guys since early CB (before we used comms even). My experiment did not go well, and the others quickly lost interest.

I'm convinced the idea is sound though with the proper builds, playstyles, and teamwork