94 replies to this topic

[Hammish]

I like the idea of a CoF.. but a very tight, narrow CoF, at least to begin with. A few things about it, though:

A) The cone shape accurately reflects the fact that range multiplies errors in trajectory. If you're shooting at something 10m away, you can have a fair bit of inaccuracy and still hit a target. If you're shooting at something 1000m away, even the slightest shift in aim with cause a miss. Small inaccuracies are to be expected, lore-wise, given how they 'lost' the knowledge needed to build new 'mechs or maintain the ones they had; most 'mechs weren't fresh-off-the-line Abrams with a perfectly-calibrated gun and excellent targeting computer, but already slightly-worn machines.

I don't think movement should affect the size of the CoF. I'm assuming we'll have a bit of 'bounce' when moving, and that already affects targeting accuracy. It is, however, something that a person -can- adjust for, if skillful enough.. and a good way to reward skillful people who practice a lot. It's almost exactly like a sharpshooter learning to control his breathing before taking a shot.

C) It provides a very keen, realistic way to simulate component damage. You take a shoulder or actuator hit? Your CoF widens for any weapons in that arm. A pilot targeting via a HUD requires that the machine be in perfect working order, and once that's lost.. yeah. You're not gonna hit much if your 'tell' that arm to elevate the cannon 3 degrees off level and shoot.. and instead it only rises up 2 degrees.

In short: combine the two extremes. Make it a narrow CoF that means nothing at short range, very little at medium range, is slightly annoying at long range, and becomes a real liability in high-heat/high-damage scenarios.

[UncleKulikov]

Aeolian, on 15 November 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

Heat just needs to be handled differently. Heat should be exponential. Firing two lasers should take longer to cool off from than firing two separately. Scale this up and firing 5 would be possible but dangerous. Your 5 med laser Hunchback still has one 'gun' more powerful than the AC20 but it can't use it reliably and has to meter out it's weapons on a cyclic basis.

That doesn't stop the 5 lasers from being flat out better than the AC20, at less weight, risk, and cost. 25 damage to a single point on the target is the problem, and adding more heat won't stop that from being dangerous.

[VYCanis]

well, if all rates of fire were equal, which is extremely unlikely, then yes.

however, if MWLL or even the '09 trailer is any indication, ACs are more likely going to have a relatively faster rate of fire. than most lasers.

sure a buncha lasers can deal a lot a damage as they spike into the red, forcing the user to have to cool off afterwards, but an ac20 user can simply keep hammering away consistently.

[stun]

I'm just wondering why can't it be simple as if your mech is moving your reticle is moving as well. The faster you go, how rough the terrain is, and the mech itself should factor into how much the reticle is moving.

If your standing absolutely still, why wouldnt you be able to be pinpoint accurate? at least on the first shot, because on the second or third then recoil should come into play.

[Yeach]

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

First off, the War Hawk C (that Ranna is piloting) has a T-comp that under TT rules allows you to do a called shot to a particular location.

My point was that pin-point accuracy exists in Battletech. In a previous thread I do consider having zoom magnification as somewhat similar to having a targeting computer.

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

From the same fight:
"Victor knew he'd only have one chance coming back, so he let the Masakari have it with everything in the Daishi's arsenal.
The Gauss cannon sent a silvery slug sizzling into the Masakari's chest, gouging out a huge chunk of armor over the 'Mech's heart. One of the three large pulse lasers in the Daishi's right arm missed its target, but the other two hit hard. One scored a glowing scar in the armor on the Masakari's left breast, while the second punched straight through the armor in the middle. Flame shot out of the flamer muzzle, and Victor's auxiliary screen reported heat rising in the enemy 'Mech."

As we all know, Victor sucks as a mechwarrior. How many times has he been saved from almost certain death. First Galen at Trellwan, then Kai Allard-Liao at Alyina then Renny Sanderlin and Hohiro Kurita on Teniente.

Also I am in the opinion that alpha-striking alone (without the aka golden lock) would spread damage if weapons were placed in different areas of the mech. However if the weapons were clustered together like the pulse lasers in the Wolfhound's chest they should focused onto one spot. See also the 4 Medium Lasers in an arm = 1 AC20 thread.

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

No one is saying that it shouldn't be possible for everything to hit the same location, just that it shouldn't be as easy as it has been in the past.

I don't disagree. Just disagree that COF is the way to do it.

Kudzu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

"Good evening." Phelan nodded to Galen, then smiled at Kai. "I can see easily why you are the Solaris champion." He shifted his gaze to Shin. "And why the Coordinator still has an heir."
Shin stiffened and then executed a short bow. Phelan read a hint of shame on Shin's face. Coordinator Takashi Kurita had been murdered only a few months before, and Shin had been in charge of Takashi's bodyguards.
Kai nodded at Phelan, the hint of a blush coloring his face. "Considering that my modified Centurion out-massed your Wolfhound by fifteen tons, you would be a favorite on Solaris. It would have taken many other fighters months of plotting to do what you managed on the fly out there."
"Lucky shots," Phelan shrugged. "I do not think you have anything to fear from me. Even if I were allowed to travel beyond the treaty line to Solaris, I would not welcome a rematch with live ammunition. As I recall, neither one of us would have survived our fight."
"Point well taken."

How much of that do you believe? Both Kai and Phelan are too modest to explain their skill.
See Kai-Allard Liao Chuck Norris thread.

[Bloody]

end of the day you all have to decide if you want a game where you get gameplay ala CounterStrike where you get headshotted at long range in the first couple of seconds of an encounter or you want a gameplay similar to the Mechcommander series where Mechs will slug it out over a course of 5-15 mins and while some combinations might seem better than others depending on playstyle , tactics and terrain etc .

i vote for bad targeting as CS:S is fun , it is not the Battletech ./ Mechwarrior i want to play. We already got that..

[VYCanis]

Bloody, on 24 November 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

end of the day you all have to decide if you want a game where you get gameplay ala CounterStrike where you get headshotted at long range in the first couple of seconds of an encounter or you want a gameplay similar to the Mechcommander series where Mechs will slug it out over a course of 5-15 mins and while some combinations might seem better than others depending on playstyle , tactics and terrain etc .

i vote for bad targeting as CS:S is fun , it is not the Battletech ./ Mechwarrior i want to play. We already got that..

false dichotomy broseph, i'd rather choose something different, if compared to anything, something closer to a vehicle combat game, not an infantry shooter.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

VYCanis, on 23 November 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

well, if all rates of fire were equal, which is extremely unlikely, then yes.

however, if MWLL or even the '09 trailer is any indication, ACs are more likely going to have a relatively faster rate of fire. than most lasers.

sure a buncha lasers can deal a lot a damage as they spike into the red, forcing the user to have to cool off afterwards, but an ac20 user can simply keep hammering away consistently.

Unfortunately most stock mechs only allow 1 ton of ammo for your AC20 ie 5 shots - not much "hammering away" allowed, especially if tou have a 20 minute match length. At least the Hunchback has the ML's to fall back on.

[Xhaleon]

Hey guys, we forgetting about the good old reliable PPC?

It is supposed to be the big gun that is fired over a longer distance and for a higher damage output than a Large Laser, but is terrible up close due to emitter focusing issues causing it to miss more often.

Trying to make that single weapon emulate that without a cone or a method that starts working like a cone is going to be particularly difficult, because anything that hits where the reticule is, can and will be manhandled into position by the player, when it is supposed to be something completely out of your hands up close.

Or do we throw that bit about PPCs away too, just like pretty much all the older Mechwarrior titles? ERPPCs are just "shoot further, more heat" again?

[VYCanis]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 24 November 2011 - 05:38 AM, said:

Unfortunately most stock mechs only allow 1 ton of ammo for your AC20 ie 5 shots - not much "hammering away" allowed, especially if tou have a 20 minute match length. At least the Hunchback has the ML's to fall back on.

well, technically, most mechs that mount an ac20 pack 2 tons of ammo

there is no reason why you can't have ammo restocking, MWLL does it quite fairly..

and there is no reason to think those 5 shots per ton are *literally* 5 shots, they could in fact be something like 15 or 20 rounds, maybe more depending on how fast the ac consumes ammo.



PPCs mininum range could be done by way of reduced damage within a certain distance of the barrel, or causes damage to the ppc via feedback if it hits something inside the minimum range, or maybe it simply doesn't fire if your target is too close, or maybe the energy is somehow "unfocused" for its minimum range distance, and any damage it deals within it is weak splash damage. almost like a flashlight beam than somehow turns into a laser some distance out

[Moppelkotze]

Halfinax, on 23 November 2011 - 06:19 PM, said:

How does it, in this new scenario, determine the range? Does it have some automatic "oh he's pointing at this object at 200 meters" sensor, but doesn't calculate (aka adjust aim)? Or are you suggesting that your shots come from the reticule itself?

Of course it would adjust aim. I just don't know why it should be that hard to adjust all weapons.
So if you aim a bit higher all Weapons just need to aim a bit higher - if the target is coming closer
the weapons are lowered a bit (depending on weaponslot and type of weapon).

My question (all the time) is: why should it calculate the adjustment right for the AC5 but not for the medium laser so you got that cone.
It's about the first shot - boating and one hitting so I just ignore the recoil of the AC until it fires.
That would of course effect the whole Mech and your reticule may spread or "jump".

[MaddMaxx]

VYCanis, on 23 November 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

well, if all rates of fire were equal, which is extremely unlikely, then yes.

however, if MWLL or even the '09 trailer is any indication, ACs are more likely going to have a relatively faster rate of fire. than most lasers.

sure a buncha lasers can deal a lot a damage as they spike into the red, forcing the user to have to cool off afterwards, but an ac20 user can simply keep hammering away consistently.

I thought we were attempting to negate the POPTART phenomena? Are we spreading those "buncha laser" out or are we coring that poor ****** as he attempts to get enough AC fire off to offset the Lasers "lot of damage" instantly?

And a POPTART does not necessarily need to be going up and down to get a safe cool down in an Urban environment.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 November 2011 - 06:55 AM.

[Xhaleon]

VYCanis, on 24 November 2011 - 06:24 AM, said:

PPCs mininum range could be done by way of reduced damage within a certain distance of the barrel, or causes damage to the ppc via feedback if it hits something inside the minimum range, or maybe it simply doesn't fire if your target is too close, or maybe the energy is somehow "unfocused" for its minimum range distance, and any damage it deals within it is weak splash damage. almost like a flashlight beam than somehow turns into a laser some distance out

That just makes it still a damage dealing weapon over time, rather than being hit and miss. True, the effect is arguably the same, but fluffwise that shot should actually be going somewhere else, meaning a full power shot might hit someone behind the target, even if it is impossible in the rules (but you can still cause fires, which implies the above statement). The loss of accuracy is caused by the emitter engaging safety protocols, so no, the PPC should only suffer from feedback damage if it is fired with the safety manually turned off. You could implement that into the game, but that would require an extra button for just one feature.

[Halfinax]

Moppelkotze, on 24 November 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:

Of course it would adjust aim. I just don't know why it should be that hard to adjust all weapons.
So if you aim a bit higher all Weapons just need to aim a bit higher - if the target is coming closer
the weapons are lowered a bit (depending on weaponslot and type of weapon).

My question (all the time) is: why should it calculate the adjustment right for the AC5 but not for the medium laser so you got that cone.
It's about the first shot - boating and one hitting so I just ignore the recoil of the AC until it fires.
That would of course effect the whole Mech and your reticule may spread or "jump".

Your argument changes from post to post. One moment you suggest the computer should aim and do it perfectly, and when the flaw in this is pointed out your argument changes to "der computer doesn't aim," and then yet again when this is shown to conflict with your own argument it has now again changed.

You also seem to now be arguing for Cone of Fire, or perhaps I misunderstood your original stance. Either way that was my point is that there should be some system that is not Pin point accuracy because if there is then the computer has to be able to perfectly calculate too many variables for PPA (Pin Point Accuracy) to be viable.

[Draco Argentum]

stun, on 23 November 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:

I'm just wondering why can't it be simple as if your mech is moving your reticle is moving as well. The faster you go, how rough the terrain is, and the mech itself should factor into how much the reticle is moving.

That works for movement bob but not for rough ground. Games make the ground look rough through graphical tricks, the actual surface is quite smooth. The sort of roughness that would make the foot land funny probably is too fine a detail to be modeled by the sim and would need a random function to add it in.