229 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

GalaxyBluestar, on 04 February 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

IS + floating crits means uber access to stack equipment, boats are more possible with
+ many designs will be twice as fast as clanners

IS - stuff weigh more and aren't as powerfull

CLAN + less slots and tonnage on gear means more ability to stack weapons
+ hardpoints are configurable

CLAN - weapons run hotter cancling out extra DHS fitted
- hardwired gear means speed is fixed, and free critslots available are vastly reduced {no way to free up mech building limits} so big guns and ammo will be vastly reduced as well as additional heatsinks

The only IS mechs that will be "twice as fast as clanners" are Light mechs. A stock Summoner (Thor) runs at 86.4kph (the max speed of a Cataphract that has speed tweak and its max engine size). A stock Timberwolf (Mad Cat) runs at 86.4 kph (a speed the Orion can't even achieve).

The Nova (Black Hawk) only runs at 86.4 kph (which might be considered a bit slow for a 50-tonner), but the Stormcrow (Ryoken) runs at 97.2kph (which will become 106.9 with speed tweak).

The fixed crits also won't be a huge problem, as Clan equipment is smaller. Additionally, not all of the introduced Omnimechs carry 14 critical slots of equipment (for instance, the Dire Wolf (Daishi) uses Endo Steel and Standard Armor.

I don't think big guns and ammo will be reduced in any way either; a Clan UAC20 takes 8 slots (compared to the IS' 10 slot AC20). Clan ERPPC is only 2 slots. Clan Gauss is 6 slots. I can see PGI attempting to use crit slots as a balancing factor, but I doubt it will work.

[ssm]

Craig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

I disagree it would be a better experieince. For the minority in Clan tech perhaps, but we would have is sub par pilots (like me ) flogging around in Madcats trying to take on 2 to 1, 3 to 1 odds. The tech won't compensate unless its buffed to all heck which I have to assume it is. Other wise the IS pilots will go, ho um, not enough KS again.

Or, (and more likely) we have so much population in Clan mechs that the CW ends up in the pentagon worlds and IS is a "oh what, well if they won't fight I can't make em" proposition for Clan pilots.

"Buffed to all heck" is actually what Clan tech is. And remember that first large group (besides Clan role-players) that would go over to the Clans would be min-max-competitive-meta-pinpoint people, because thats what they do. They explioit every single advantage possibile to win, and OP lore-adherent Clans would be mother lode.

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 04:28 AM.

[Craig Steele]

ssm, on 04 February 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

"Buffed to all heck" is actually what Clan tech is. And remember that first large group (besides Clan role-players) that would go over to the Clans would be min-max-competitive-meta-pinpoint people, because thats what they do. They expoliont every single advantage possibile to win, and OP lore-adherent Clans would be mother lode.

What I mean is, buffed over and beyond the TT equivalent to compensate for poorer on average pilots.

[longwang]

Craig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

The number of IS Assualts that do 90kph I can count on one hand, except in MWO. Sounds like you're already living the Clan experience

Haha! No, heavies that goes that fast.

Quote

Know any canon where EVERY mech had engine options? Or you could slip in Endo Steel and DHS at will. Know any Canon where a chassis comes in different variants that could be field converted. LRM in, SRM out type of stuff? There are lots of canon examples where just adding one weapon to the manufactured model "taxed the targeting computer" so as to make it unworkable

That is essentially the same point I made about the AC/2 and AC/5 becoming viable weapons because of cool down times. This will need to be done because a turn based table top game can't be directly digitized into some that is real time. "Creative interpretations" will need to be made on the part of the developers in order to have something that works well.

And I actually agree, the IS mechs are very omni like already. Which may have been a flaw in the game's design. The only real restriction, as you pointed out, are how many and what kinds of weapons can go where.

My fear is that the game will lack personality. As we discuss and I am forced to reflect on my feelings, I think initially, I was revolting against the deviation from lore. In actuallity, I want a good game. What would be good if the clan tech worked the same as IS tech?

If you play Civilization for example, and you play as the United States. You get special benefits based on US characteristics. Maye something like 20% economic growth and 10% research speed, and unique units. What adding clans to the game, as being proposed is, is saying that you are now China. And China's special because they get 20% economic growth and 10% research speed and have special units that are different from America.

Granted, some of this does seem like it MAY be addressed with CW, if that every comes out, for unique benefits to each house. So let's have more than one teir. Let's have IS and Clans be 2 umbrella groups where everyone in that group has certain advantages and disadvantages on the battle field. Then with in that umbrella group, the subgroups (IS houses and various Clans) get unique abilities.

That sounds more interesting to me than having both IS and Clans work the basically the same way, with the Clans being more powerful.

[ssm]

Craig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

What I mean is, buffed over and beyond the TT equivalent to compensate for poorer on average pilots.

Of course, most of bad pilots would use the Clan tech to have individual advantage. But so would the best pilots. The only group that would stay with IS tech are IS rolplayers. Are there enough of them to sustain six IS factions?

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 04:23 AM.

[Craig Steele]

ssm, on 04 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

Of course, most of bad pilots would use the Clan tech to have individual advantage. But so would the best pilots. The only group that would stay with IS tech are IS rolplayers. Are there enough of them to sustain six IS factions?

My point exactly, only the hard core RP'ers and some social cbf freinds will be in that group (stereotype I know, but oh well)

If Clans are OP, the good the bad and the ugly will gravitate there and IS CW becomes a no show.

[CheeseThief]

I'm fairly sure that 80% of players are going to jump ship to clans no matter what PGI does with the balancing. The amount of woefully under gunned mechs running around the place with an XL engine in them pretty much ensures that the clueless masses are going to jump ship to the faction with more numpty friendly hardware.

[ssm]

Craig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

My point exactly, only the hard core RP'ers and some social cbf freinds will be in that group (stereotype I know, but oh well)

If Clans are OP, the good the bad and the ugly will gravitate there and IS CW becomes a no show.

And if CW becomes no show, we'd have to say goodbye to another 4-6 years of 3D-printable Alex Iglesias designs.

CheeseThief, on 04 February 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

I'm fairly sure that 80% of players are going to jump ship to clans no matter what PGI does with the balancing. The amount of woefully under gunned mechs running around the place with an XL engine in them pretty much ensures that the clueless masses are going to jump ship to the faction with more numpty friendly hardware.

And that's where other, real balancing measures would take over. What a lot people fail to understand is that nerfing Clan tech in-game is only a starting point, bare minimum that would at least make possible sustaining thing like CW in fps shooter ad 2014.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Watering down clan tech due to low player population is going to be the death knell of MWO. It won't please anyone.

What PGI should do is make clan tech as strong as it's suppose to be and portion the drops accordingly, counting clan mecs as twice their actual tonnage when it comes to matchmaking. 8vs12s ect and create a proper risk vs reward for using clan tech. This way the MM could match all clan matches against each-other no problem while balancing them vs drops with mixed in IS.

Edited by lockwoodx, 04 February 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[longwang]

ssm, on 04 February 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

Of course, most of bad pilots would use the Clan tech to have individual advantage. But so would the best pilots. The only group that would stay with IS tech are IS rolplayers. Are there enough of them to sustain six IS factions?

CheeseThief, on 04 February 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

I'm fairly sure that 80% of players are going to jump ship to clans no matter what PGI does with the balancing. The amount of woefully under gunned mechs running around the place with an XL engine in them pretty much ensures that the clueless masses are going to jump ship to the faction with more numpty friendly hardware.

So doesn't this suggest that something different should be done?

Still don't think I like what PGI is doing. Given what is quoted above, Is it enough?

[Joseph Mallan]

Mech Pros
Complete customization Including engine, structure & armor
Mech Cons
Took forever and a day to get some work done

MW:O drawback
Time is irrelevant. I can switch from standard to Endo structure in a click. We don't have the feeling that a Mech getting a FFA upgrade needed several days to fit the armor. Which makes a Mech a better Omni than Omnis.

Suggestion I have is allow Omnis to have looser HP restrictions if any restrictions at all.

Mistake PGI is making with Omnis also is keeping the 3 chassis mandate for grinding. Omnies used one BASE chassis for all the configurations. having to buy 3 is strictly a money grab (even if that money is C-Bills). Heck when I ground my Atlases I had the same configurations basically on all Three. Not t mention that some of the more popular Mechs in the game don't have but 2 official variants!

At my table I ran a Clans campaign, Each player had a Crusader and a Warden Clan. Each player got t set up his Clan's Base Chassis as they saw fit. So you saw Jade Falcons using Endo where an Omni had FFA, JumpJets were pod additions so some warriors had jets and other did not. Base Heat sinks were never more than the engine could hold. I was impressed at the different twists each Clan had!

Any way, as to the tech race... It is a natural progression people. Sticks and stones<edged weapons<spears<bow and arrow<guns<rockets Now do we use Swords in modern combat? Are they unavailable? (BTW the answer is no, I own about 17!). The Clans had a edge that the IS worked hard at equalizing. Its why they got their buts handed t them for 3-4 years. But the IS had the numbers AND the tactics to win a drawn out war. The Clans had less Galaxies combined than the FedCom had Regiments. Had the IS been a single entity they could have shifted forces from the 5 Houses and just crushed the Clans on the ground. The Clans however did have Naval superiority.

Anyway I want my opponents to have their tech edge for a while and I want to play catch up. By the time Huntress comes around I would love to see 25%-40% Clan Tech on some of the Canon Units, and maybe 10%-15% on the frontline player Merc commands. A Clan ERPPC on my Battlemaster by 3058 would not be out of the question that way.

[Chemie]

clan light mechs = DOA (too small engine and no armor)
clan assault heavy = OP (some of them with full armor and 80-90 kph anyway)

Now what? 12v12 clans on skirmish I guess.

[ssm]

lockwoodx, on 04 February 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

Watering down clan tech due to low player population is going to be the death knell of MWO. It won't please anyone.

What PGI should do is make clan tech as strong as it's suppose to be and portion the drops accordingly, counting clan mecs as twice their actual tonnage when it comes to matchmaking. This way there's a proper risk vs reward.

Nope, it would be a problem whether we had 20k, 100k, or 2mil. players. Portioning the drops would still make majority of people go over to the Clans. because whether we like it or not, playing as outnumbered but individually superior uber-Clanner is more fun for most of the people than having to rely on others to win.

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 February 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Anyway I want my opponents to have their tech edge for a while and I want to play catch up. By the time Huntress comes around I would love to see 25%-40% Clan Tech on some of the Canon Units, and maybe 10%-15% on the frontline player Merc commands. A Clan ERPPC on my Battlemaster by 3058 would not be out of the question that way.

MWO needs frontline players to begin with. The trials aren't cutting it and the meta is anything but "frontline".

ssm, on 04 February 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Nope, it would be a problem whether we had 20k, 100k, or 2mil. players. Portioning the drops would still make majority of people go over to the Clans. because whether we like it or not, playing as outnumbered but individually superior uber-Clanner is more fun for most of the people than havig to rely on others to win.

Then clans would be fighting clans ect. I esssplained that lucy. Portioning drops is for the benefit of players who still want to use IS mechs.

Edited by lockwoodx, 04 February 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[Craig Steele]

lockwoodx, on 04 February 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

Watering down clan tech due to low player population is going to be the death knell of MWO. It won't please anyone.

What PGI should do is make clan tech as strong as it's suppose to be and portion the drops accordingly, counting clan mecs as twice their actual tonnage when it comes to matchmaking. 8vs12s ect and create a proper risk vs reward for using clan tech. This way the MM could match all clan matches against each-other no problem while balancing them vs drops with mixed in IS.

But then no one will be playing IS, all matches will be CLan v Clan or "failed to find"

[ssm]

lockwoodx, on 04 February 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Then clans would be fighting clans ect. I esssplained that lucy. Portioning drops is for the benefit of players who still want to use IS mechs.

I understand - but I guess PGI's goal is to include Clans without resorting to giving benefits for players for still using IS tech. It would practically mean that they'd consider IS tech obsolete, and that wouldn't stand well with players who dished out a lot of money to buy IS hero mechs etc.

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Craig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

But then no one will be playing IS, all matches will be CLan v Clan or "failed to find"

"failed to find" is a population issue. If PGI doesn't correct that first it doesn't matter in the long run.

Players who want faster matches will jump back into IS mechs. Players who want to try the "shiny new thing" will have to wait in line. Haven't you ever been to an amusement park to try out a new roller coaster? Try waiting 4+ hours for 30 seconds of fun.

People are willing to do that and this entitlement crap about not having instant matches is part of the reason decent games like this are dieing off in their prime because nobody has any patience anymore.

[Craig Steele]

lockwoodx, on 04 February 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

"failed to find" is a population issue. If PGI doesn't correct that first it doesn't matter in the long run.

Players who want faster matches will jump back into IS mechs. Players who want to try the "shiny new thing" will have to wait in line. Haven't you ever been to an amusement park to try out a new roller coaster? Try waiting 4+ hours for 30 seconds of fun.

People are willing to do that and this entitlement crap about not having instant matches is part of the reason decent games like this are dieing off in their prime because nobody has any patience anymore.

Yup, but if it matches up 10,000 Clan vs Clan games at least the majority are still playing, but it does make the balancing of tech conversation kinda redundant.

[ssm]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 February 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

(...)
Anyway I want my opponents to have their tech edge for a while and I want to play catch up. By the time Huntress comes around I would love to see 25%-40% Clan Tech on some of the Canon Units, and maybe 10%-15% on the frontline player Merc commands. A Clan ERPPC on my Battlemaster by 3058 would not be out of the question that way.

While I fully understand the reasons behind that thinking (you'd like MWO to enable you to reenact the lore), I'm at the same time certain that most people would like to get best value out of their limited gaming time, and being repeatedly stomped while "catching up" is hardly entertaining to majority of players.

lockwoodx, on 04 February 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

"failed to find" is a population issue. If PGI doesn't correct that first it doesn't matter in the long run.

Players who want faster matches will jump back into IS mechs. Players who want to try the "shiny new thing" will have to wait in line. Haven't you ever been to an amusement park to try out a new roller coaster? Try waiting 4+ hours for 30 seconds of fun.

People are willing to do that and this entitlement crap about not having instant matches is part of the reason decent games like this are dieing off in their prime because nobody has any patience anymore.

And whether we like it or not, we have to live with it. Period.

And again - it isn't population issue - you'd have same problem balancing drops with 80% players playing Clans with 20k players and 2 mil. players.

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 05:05 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

ssm, on 04 February 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

And whether we like it or not, we have to live with it. Period.

And again - it isn't population issue - you'd have same problem balancing drops with 80% players playing Clans with 20k players and 2 mil. players.

I just want to correct myself in the sense that "players who want the shiny new thing" won't necessarily have to wait in line so long as they are being matched with each other. It's kinda like the whole mediums vs assaults argument but IS tech vs Clan.

Do they both deserve to have matches? Of course. Does one type have a clear advantage? Yes, and rightfully so. Assaults will always have an advantage over mediums and tonnage limits are coming. If they apply similar limits to clan mechs by just counting them as double their actual tonnage, then there's no need to nerf the tech and clan mechs can then FEEL like clan mechs.

Edited by lockwoodx, 04 February 2014 - 05:07 AM.