229 replies to this topic

[mania3c]

Wolfways, on 05 February 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

I did actually read his post, and i'm talking about REAL clan tech.

Look at the difference between clan and IS mechs.
Armour - the same.
weapons - Clan have slightly better range which is mostly negated by the COD-style maps. Clan mechs carry more weapons, which they won't be able to fire because of MWO's increased heat system. The weight saved by lighter weapons will be useful for adding more needed DHS to bring the clan mechs performance up to the IS mechs level.
Speed - No idea how fast clan mechs could go if they get to upgrade engines, but i'd guess they'd be faster than IS mechs of a similar weight.

In MWO now IS mechs with stock weapons can be made viable by adding Endo and extra DHS/ammo. Many clan mechs won't have that option so will not be viable to play with stock weapons.

Maybe someone could point out to me how clan mechs would be superior in MWO?

people seems to not understand fact, that complete IS and Clan separation actually allows to make clan weapons overpowered to balance whole IS vs Clan stuff without some additional arbitrary rules. We don't know how weapons will be designed at this point...we just know..NOW is finally possible to somehow not nerf Clan tech to to ground to make it balanced..it seems that clan XL is good example of that..at least according their last post, there is not a single thing..or disadvantage compared to IS XL engine.. and this is how it supposed to be.. let's see how weapons will be put into the system.

[Sephlock]

http://www.reddit.co...ruction/cf6jvma

[ReXspec]

Sephlock, on 05 February 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

http://www.reddit.co...ruction/cf6jvma

LOL

So what is the alternative, I wonder? Completely phase out CERPPC's and pretend they don't exist? Or nerf them to oblivion?

[Sephlock]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

LOL

So what is the alternative, I wonder? Completely phase out CERPPC's and pretend they don't exist? Or nerf them to oblivion?

http://www.reddit.co...ruction/cf6mjql

[ReXspec]

Sephlock, on 05 February 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

http://www.reddit.co...ruction/cf6mjql

Dat blue shield...

And nerfing the PPC's into oblivion... -golf clap.- So... why the f**k should people use PGI's Clan tech, again?

Edited by ReXspec, 05 February 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Sephlock]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

Dat blue shield...

And nerfing the PPC's into oblivion... -golf clap.- So... why the f**k should people use PGI's Clan tech, again?

Because Clan mechs can't use IS tech, and IS mechs can't use clan tech (see what is linked to in the OP).

[ReXspec]

Sephlock, on 05 February 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Because Clan mechs can't use IS tech, and IS mechs can't use clan tech (see what is linked to in the OP).

Weeeeeeelp... as I've stated previously:

If that is the case, Clan tech will either be more effective or less effective then I.S. tech.

In either case, PGI have shot themselves in the foot. If Clan tech is more effective then I.S. tech, then people won't want to use I.S. tech. Or, if Clan tech turns out to be worse then I.S. tech, then no one will want to use Clan tech for any reason other then the 'mechs look cool.

Both prospects are equally bad... and the really sad thing is, this whole debacle could be avoided if the devs would allow I.S. 'mechs to integrate clan tech, and if both the devs and the players would get off the notion that every weapon system or piece of technology cannot be made obsolete.

[Craig Steele]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Weeeeeeelp... as I've stated previously:

If that is the case, Clan tech will either be more effective or less effective then I.S. tech.

In either case, PGI have shot themselves in the foot. If Clan tech is more effective then I.S. tech, then people won't want to use I.S. tech. Or, if Clan tech turns out to be worse then I.S. tech, then no one will want to use Clan tech for any reason other then the 'mechs look cool.

Both prospects are equally bad... and the really sad thing is, this whole debacle could be avoided if the devs would allow I.S. 'mechs to integrate clan tech, and if both the devs and the players would get off the notion that every weapon system or piece of technology cannot be made obsolete.

What if it's, ummm, you know, balanced?

[ReXspec]

Craig Steele, on 05 February 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

What if it's, ummm, you know, balanced?

Was that sarcastic? Define "balanced." lol

Because, so far, what I've seen is that they've done nothing but show signs they're going to nerf the clans into oblivion and make the I.S. tech directly competitive toward Clan tech and tunnel the market toward either I.S. tech, or Clan tech.

This should NOT be the case.

All of this just seems like useless pandering to this spiel:

"Hey! Buy Clan 'mechs! They're about as effective as I.S. 'mechs but they look cool!"

MOTHERF***ER- REALLY?!

What if I don't want to be forced to choose between a Dire Wolf or an Atlas?

What if I want to mount a Clan Gauss Rifle, a Clan UAC-2, and a whole array of Clan lasers on my Atlas?

What if I want to mount two Clan Gauss Rifles, a Heavy Gauss Rifle and a Clan ER Large Pulse Laser on my Dire Wolf?

Yes, the integration of Clan and I.S. tech on both types of Chassis will render certain weapons USELESS but that is OKAY!

Roles NEED to be defined in MWO! People NEED to be given more options for their builds to effectively counter the Clans! That is the way it happened in ALL of the Battletech series!

Edited by ReXspec, 05 February 2014 - 11:17 PM.

[Zuesacoatl]

I love how you guys want to keep clans OP and yet claim there is a way to make it fair..... Really....That is like telling one guy in a duel to use a black poweder, nonrifled, pistol against a sniper outfitted with a TAVOR rifle and the latest in self aiming technology, but he only has one round....ohh, and the battle starts at the snipers max distance. Yeah, that supposed downfall does nothing because all he needs is that one shot. Just admit the fact that you want to be the OP curbroflstomper and hide behind the word "lore" to support you arguments. I still have the box for BattleDroids when I bought it as a wee tot, I am more lore entrenched than many of you supposed fans, and I love this idea. It stops the failures the other companies had with the clans in previous MW titles.

and the following quote should be posted on every page of this thread, this chap has it right.

Fade Akira, on 04 February 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

First of all, for supposed fans, looking at most of the signatures of people commenting here, I'm surprised any of you bother playing at all. Talk about negativity. If i was a developer, and i was prowling these forums, i would just think anyone with a whiny signature was a {Richard Cameron}. Im not saying you are, but that's the impression it gives. Just saying.

Anyway, i thought i would offer a unique perspective on this conversation, try and ground it in the real world. I know very little of battletech, or the MechWarrior lore. However i have loved the idea of it for a long, long time and really enjoy playing this game. As someone who knows nothing much of the lore here is my take on introducing clan tech, in the context of some of the OP's points for keeping clan tech overpowered. Because after looking at the stats for some canon clan tech weapons, thats exactly what it is.

I have been playing since October, so while i know nothing of the lore, i know how to play the game well enough. My experience is, a lot of MechWarrior veterans are the people who drop in premades, and get right into the whole thing. A lot of people who don't care that much for the lore, i think drop in pugs. I don't know for sure but its what it seems to me.

I know the people who follow the lore, want everything as canon as possible. I have a friend who is really into it all, and he said if they can't do it canon, they shouldn't do it at all. I personally think this is bullshit. This is a good game, even as it stands now, without some of the forthcoming content such as UI2.0 and CW, its still a good game. Don't kill it because of 'canon'

At the end of the day, all people want clan tech for is new goodies. Don't chuck around all this crap about lore, this isn't an RPG. Half of you veteran MechWarrior players just want all the clan tech because its simply better, and you rub your hands together in anticipation of even more damage you could do in your premade drops. Well thats all well and good, but the learning curve for this game is already high enough for new players as it is. You can whine about how others should just drop in premades too but it isn't that simple. People find it hard to get into this game, and i have to say, i almost didn't bother myself after getting totally kerbstomped a few times when i started out. However i persevered. Some simply wont bother, there are plenty of other games to play out there.

Clan tech needs to be balanced. As PGI are proposing. The OP, no offence, but clearly has dreams of dropping in with a couple of friends and laying waste to hordes of IS mechs with his OP clan gear, then arrogantly typing 'GG' at the end, knowing very well he doesn't mean it. Just like is happening right now anyway to a lesser extent. I can see the appeal, but you need to think about what you are saying.

All you old school MW fans need to weigh up how much having OP canon clan tech means to you over how much you want to play a good, balanced MW game for years to come. Because i can tell you this, if clan tech opens a gap away from IS mechs, within a few months of it launching, you will find yourself walking an empty battlefield and the game will start to die.

Think of it this way, from another perspective. New player. Logs in first time, launches game in his trial mech, already steaming before he has even fired a shot. Goes up against a team of clan mechs. In fact, lets expand the idea, 12 new/inexperienced players, against 6 clan mechs. Do you really think, the numbers will make any difference over good, well built clan mechs with OP gear? There are already faceroll matches going on more frequently than i would like, where teams lose no mechs or maybe 1 or 2. You think this would be any better with clan tech? You think that new player would be back?

Just wake up and smell the coffee. You cant put canon clan tech into the game, and if you do, then you clearly don't want this game to succeed. Because no one wants to be that dude, sat in his IS mech, red lights flashing, wondering why he died so fast. Now, whether that dude happens to be you or not, somewhere that dude still exists regardless...Just balance it and get over it in your head.

"In 3067, IS Tech and Clan tech were broadly comparable and tactics had caught up, as had casuality rates / pilot experience. I think a balanced MWO Clan vs IS tech is simply reflecting a later timeline and PGI have been generous in timeline movement before.

No biggy. "

This is what a guy above me posted. I think he is on to a winner.

[mania3c]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Weeeeeeelp... as I've stated previously:

If that is the case, Clan tech will either be more effective or less effective then I.S. tech.

In either case, PGI have shot themselves in the foot. If Clan tech is more effective then I.S. tech, then people won't want to use I.S. tech. Or, if Clan tech turns out to be worse then I.S. tech, then no one will want to use Clan tech for any reason other then the 'mechs look cool.

Both prospects are equally bad... and the really sad thing is, this whole debacle could be avoided if the devs would allow I.S. 'mechs to integrate clan tech, and if both the devs and the players would get off the notion that every weapon system or piece of technology cannot be made obsolete.

you are thinking backwards and in extremes.. it's fine if you don't trust PGI..but actually whole point of Clan and IS separation to have more options for balancing AND keeping the Clan flavor..without separations..things like current Clan XL engines wouldn't be possible without putting more arbitrary rules onto it..

Edited by mania3c, 05 February 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[ReXspec]

Zuesacoatl, on 05 February 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

I love how you guys want to keep clans OP and yet claim there is a way to make it fair..... Really....That is like telling one guy in a duel to use a black poweder, nonrifled, pistol against a sniper outfitted with a TAVOR rifle and the latest in self aiming technology, but he only has one round....ohh, and the battle starts at the snipers max distance. Yeah, that supposed downfall does nothing because all he needs is that one shot. Just admit the fact that you want to be the OP curbroflstomper and hide behind the word "lore" to support you arguments. I still have the box for BattleDroids when I bought it as a wee tot, I am more lore entrenched than many of you supposed fans, and I love this idea. It stops the failures the other companies had with the clans in previous MW titles.

and the following quote should be posted on every page of this thread, this chap has it right.

Again, NONE of this would be a problem if you make Clan tech easy to obtain for EVERY player.

Picture this: A trial 'mech with both Clan Tech AND I.S. tech optimally built so that a new player can hold his own on the battlefield (assuming he has been taught or figured out the basics of mechwarrior combat).

I would prefer that--A MILLION TIMES OVER-- then force new players to face the prospect of facing players with (blatantly or subtly) superior tech.

Edited by ReXspec, 05 February 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[Sephlock]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Both prospects are equally bad... and the really sad thing is, this whole debacle could be avoided if the devs would allow I.S. 'mechs to integrate clan tech, and if both the devs and the players would get off the notion that every weapon system or piece of technology cannot be made obsolete.

Wouldn't that make IS trial mechs EVEN WORSE than they are now (something which I had scarcely believed to be possible)?

[ReXspec]

mania3c, on 05 February 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

you are thinking backwards and in extremes.. it's fine if you don't trust PGI..but actually whole point of Clan and IS separation to have more options for balancing AND keeping the Clan flavor..without separations..things like current Clan XL engines wouldn't be possible without putting more arbitrary rules onto it..

Again, the question is not how the tech should be balanced, it should be a question of how people have access to it.

Both I.S. and Clan mechs should be able to integrate both types of technology. The question that PGI should be raising in regards to this is who would have access to it, and how people would acquire it.

My humble opinion, clan tech acquisition should be based on both salvage and in-game C-bill purchases. That would make clan tech outrageously expensive, but everyone would still have access to it.

Sephlock, on 05 February 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

Wouldn't that make IS trial mechs EVEN WORSE than they are now (something which I had scarcely believed to be possible)?

I suppose it would depend on what your definition of an "optimally built" trial 'mech is, but I'd like to think that any 'mech that integrates Clan Tech (keep in mind, CANON clan tech, not PGI's poor excuse for clan tech) would perform better then their strictly I.S. tech counterparts.

Edited by ReXspec, 05 February 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[mania3c]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

Again, the question is not how the tech should be balanced, it should be a question of how people have access to it.

Both I.S. and Clan mechs should be able to integrate both types of technology. The question that PGI should be raising in regards to this is who would have access to it, and how people would acquire it.

My humble opinion, clan tech acquisition should be based on both salvage and in-game C-bill purchases. That would make clan tech outrageously expensive, but everyone would still have access to it.

but do you understand when clan and IS tech would not be separated, PGI would have to balance IS and Clan mechs AND IS and Clan weapons at the same time? from design perspective..this could do more harm than good..I understand that YOU WANT..and maybe even many people WANT to mix-tech.. but there has to be a line..where balance can start.. and separating tech can achieve much better diversity which could be, hopefully, driven by different players preferences.. not by some math..

[Zuesacoatl]

So, for you supposed fans out there, if you read the lore, as you say you do, you would understand that Clan tech on IS machines did not happen often, and honestly, it was only on prince Davions mech that you can recall it happening on in one of the BTech novels, and he had nothing but issues with it. Most tech you are refering to are the IS counterparts created from the reverse engineered tech they got from the clan and the GDMC from the GDL. Further refrences in the lore of IS pilots having clan tech were those of, like Prince Davion again, fielding the entire clan mech. Retrofitting pure clan tech did not happen much becuase of the cost it tooks to do so, so only the most notable of pilots did this. Retrofits happened after the IS mad their own tech. So making clan tech available to all IS pilots in game goes against your precious lore, and should not happen, not only in a logical argument, but your own "lore" argument as well.

And honestly, TROs after Fafsa do not count. they were created as money grabs and blured the lines of the original lore with that of WotC MW:DA. Most pure loreists do not see MW:DA and the ownership of WotC as being the same timeline.

Edited by Zuesacoatl, 05 February 2014 - 11:42 PM.

[ReXspec]

mania3c, on 05 February 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

but do you understand when clan and IS tech would not be separated, PGI would have to balance IS and Clan mechs AND IS and Clan weapons at the same time? from design perspective..this could do more harm than good..I understand that YOU WANT..and maybe even many people WANT to mix-tech.. but there has to be a line..where balance can start.. and separating tech can achieve much better diversity which could be, hopefully, driven by different players preferences.. not by some math..

This is why weaponry such as the Heavy Gauss and X-pulse lasers were developed. Much of the primary weaponry of the inner-sphere remained unchanged. Meaning that Clan Tech and I.S. tech remained the same, stats wise, but new weapons were developed to compete with Clan tech directly.

Even then, a few I.S. weapon systems held two advantages when all was said and done: They were cheaper, and they produced less heat. In the end, the weighing of individual preference toward what is effective comes down to the player, which means that by giving all players access to Clan tech, players can make that call on their own. Raw weapons statistics should stay the same. As I mentioned before, I.S. tech countered clan tech effectively when new weapons were developed.

Zuesacoatl, on 05 February 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

So, for you supposed fans out there, if you read the lore, as you say you do, you would understand that Clan tech on IS machines did not happen often, and honestly, it was only on prince Davions mech that you can recall it happening on in one of the BTech novels, and he had nothing but issues with it. Most tech you are refering to are the IS counterparts created from the reverse engineered tech they got from the clan and the GDMC from the GDL. Further refrences in the lore of IS pilots having clan tech were those of, like Prince Davion again, fielding the entire clan mech. Retrofitting pure clan tech did not happen much becuase of the cost it tooks to do so, so only the most notable of pilots did this. Retrofits happened after the IS mad their own tech. So making clan tech available to all IS pilots in game goes against your precious lore, and should not happen, not only in a logical argument, but your own "lore" argument as well.

And honestly, TROs after Fafsa do not count. they were created as money grabs and blured the lines of the original lore with that of WotC MW:DA. Most pure loreists do not see MW:DA and the ownership of WotC as being the same timeline.

You're correct. Clan tech was expensive because, not only was Clan salvage rare in the market, but the retrofits were expensive as well. However, I believe your perception of how much Clan salvage was actually acquired during the Clan Wars, before and after the Great Refusal, and post Second Star League is grossly skewed. After the disbandment of the second Star League, Clan tech was expensive, but significantly more common in the market.

Edited by ReXspec, 06 February 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[Craig Steele]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

Was that sarcastic? Define "balanced." lol

Because, so far, what I've seen is that they've done nothing but show signs they're going to nerf the clans into oblivion and make the I.S. tech directly competitive toward Clan tech and tunnel the market toward either I.S. tech, or Clan tech.

This should NOT be the case.

All of this just seems like useless pandering to this spiel:

"Hey! Buy Clan 'mechs! They're about as effective as I.S. 'mechs but they look cool!"

MOTHERF***ER- REALLY?!

What if I don't want to be forced to choose between a Dire Wolf or an Atlas?

What if I want to mount a Clan Gauss Rifle, a Clan UAC-2, and a whole array of Clan lasers on my Atlas?

What if I want to mount two Clan Gauss Rifles, a Heavy Gauss Rifle and a Clan ER Large Pulse Laser on my Dire Wolf?

Yes, the integration of Clan and I.S. tech on both types of Chassis will render certain weapons USELESS but that is OKAY!

Roles NEED to be defined in MWO! People NEED to be given more options for their builds to effectively counter the Clans! That is the way it happened in ALL of the Battletech series!

Really? Cause all I have read so far is that pound for pound they will be better slightly than IS. Better durability, similar or better damage hinted at (no weapons yet though). Better heat (vis a vis more potential heat sinks)

The only real downside is that I cannot increase my engine but I guess that may or may not be a problem depending on what engine is in there to start with right. Ummm, we don't know that yet though. So I'll park that.

I can't change armour but hey, if they hold true to canon most clanners with FF are heavies / assaults and I want those extra slots for weapons and heat anyway so no biggy unless you're a die hard 'X' fan that is the minority of omni's that don't fit the bill.

So what's your major point of concern?

[ReXspec]

Craig Steele, on 06 February 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

Really? Cause all I have read so far is that pound for pound they will be better slightly than IS. Better durability, similar or better damage hinted at (no weapons yet though). Better heat (vis a vis more potential heat sinks)

The only real downside is that I cannot increase my engine but I guess that may or may not be a problem depending on what engine is in there to start with right. Ummm, we don't know that yet though. So I'll park that.

I can't change armour but hey, if they hold true to canon most clanners with FF are heavies / assaults and I want those extra slots for weapons and heat anyway so no biggy unless you're a die hard 'X' fan that is the minority of omni's that don't fit the bill.

So what's your major point of concern?

So, if what you said is to be believed then that means the Clan 'mechs will be better then I.S. 'mechs, and there will be no way to counter-balance this except through nerfs, correct? If that is the case, then that is absolutely ABOMINABLE. It will tunnel the market toward Clan tech and force players to buy Clan tech to pose any sort of a threat to other Clan stars, or it will force the devs to nerf Clan tech more because players WILL whine about it. THESE are my concerns.

As I mentioned in the post you cited, an EASY fix for that is to make. Clan. tech. accessible. to. everyone. and give players the ability to use Clan tech in their I.S. 'mechs.

Make it hard to EARN Clan tech! Make it rare! Make it expensive! Just make it accessible and give players the ability to integrate that tech into I.S. 'mechs!

I don't know how many times I can say it: If you do this, slow the rates of fire to TT standards, put armor values at TT standards, have crosshair deviation based on movement and recoil, and have a Battle Value based matchmaking system you will have solved most (if not all) of the MAJOR balancing hurdles we see with MWO today.

New players or I.S. players shouldn't get b*ned just because someone coughed up the dough to buy a Clan 'mech that is statistically better then another I.S. 'mech.

Let the problem correct itself with the integration of better tech--empower the players in the 'mechlab and on the battlefield by giving them incentives to scrap their Clanner opponents, rip the tech off of their opponents 'mechs, collect C-bills from that salvage, and buy the tech to use it against them. Don't let the devs make more convoluted and complicated nerfs.

Edited by ReXspec, 06 February 2014 - 01:26 AM.

[Craig Steele]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

So, if what you said is to be believed then that means the Clan 'mechs will be better then I.S. 'mechs correct? If that is the case, that is absolutely ABOMINABLE. It will tunnel the market toward Clan tech and force players to buy Clan tech to pose any sort of a threat to other Clan stars. THAT is my concern.

As I mentioned in the post you cited, an EASY fix for that is to make. Clan. tech. accessible. to. everyone. and give players the ability to use Clan tech in their I.S. 'mechs.

Make it hard to EARN Clan tech! Make it rare! Make it expensive! Just make it accessible and give players the ability to integrate that tech into I.S. 'mechs!

I don't know how many times I can say it: If you do this, slow the rates of fire to TT standards, put armor values at TT standards, have crosshair deviation based on movement and recoil, and have a Battle Value based matchmaking system you will have solved most (if not all) of the MAJOR balancing hurdles we see with MWO today.

New players or I.S. players shouldn't get b*ned just because someone coughed up the dough to buy a Clan 'mech that is statistically better then another I.S. 'mech.

Ummm, I said "Slightly better", please don't take away my adjectives to support your argument. Thats not good form.

And I clarified that some aspects are not yet known, the unspoken insinuation being to make a informed judgement when all the details are available instead of throwing a tanty over half the story.

I suspect you are on a hiding to nothing if you are saying that a F2P game model should not sell a desired product because it doesn't suit your idea of balance. Sorry, but the mechs will be sold for real cash making it impossible to limit it's availability. Anyone with $$ will be able to buy them, same as anyone with $$ can currently buy every other mech. The model is not going to change.

Unless you want to kill the game by arguing for a subscription model?

If you want Clan tech in IS mechs you are basically arguing for a min max environment with no balance. They are attempting to balance the "power" of Clan tech by opting for package arrangements. I don't like the min maxing, theres too much min maxing already in this game to it's detriment.

If you want a kick butt optimal weapons loadout by stacking 8 ballistic hardpoints on madcat, you might have to settle for a comparably slower speed or lesser armour. Where's the problem?

Personally I don't have a problem with that in theory but the engine one certainly bugs me.

Edited by Craig Steele, 06 February 2014 - 01:22 AM.