22 replies to this topic

[Xeraphale]

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...

Surely real world physics should dictate that ballistic weapons should create recoil and thus, a little screen shake. Doe anyone agree that this would be a good and realistic way to make the ballistics a little more equal?

It might just make energy weapons that little more appealing too.

[Turist0AT]

I feel recoil when i alpha AC-20 Srm20 Shawk.

And no i dont agree with you. To make ballistics more equal, buff the other weapons.

Edited by Turist0AT, 04 February 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[Supersmacky]

This is sort of what the gyros are for. Since, in theory, you have computer fire control, it could be integrated with the gyros in order to have them help compensate for recoil. Of course, it is more difficult for them to perform the same action for incoming fire as that is not as plainly predictable as outgoing.

Just my $0.02

[AZA311]

When you alpha 2 PPCs + AC10 plus, alpha boat ACs or alpha boar lasers, you WILL incur RECOIL effect! No questions asked!

This is a game that imitates real world physics. This is a game that suspends real wold physics. Which ever you choose, RECOIL is part of EVERY SHOOTER VIDEO GAME....capital period!

Dirty windshield obscuring visibility, tiny pebbles and nonsensical immovable little objects like cars and statues..........yea, bloody statues of angels playing a trumpet LOL.....in asinine locations that disrupt movement flow stopping you dead in your tracks, massive engines struggling on the slightest incline

All of the above are CHEAP MECHANICS to disrupt your line of sight

PGI - Poor Guys Implementation of Recoil and everything else that they cannot implement

Recoil NEEDS to be added in the LEAST!!!..... to mitigate the imbalance in unbelievable torso twist speed of 50 PLUS TON MECHS! that can line up an alpha strike faster than you and I can twist our heads so who cares how slow your mech moves - ohhhhhhhh the balance........ THE LACK OF ARMOUR / survivability that has NEVER.....and I MEAN NEVER!!!...reached base line levels when firing cool down was increased to 2.5 x and armour only 2 times! ONLY 2 times!!! NOT PROPORTIONATE....NO BASELINE to start off on the right foot

There is no game in the history of video games,...where when you shoot, your bullets do not all go to the centre of your aiming thingie!.....Name me one game!!!........Convergence is a NON-STARTER...a red herring to take you away from what's really wrong with this game. DO NOT counter me with convergence is the answer to all the problems!

I totally agree Recoil needs to be added proportionate to the weight of your mech, the type of weapon and how many you fire at one time and which and whatnot upgrade or module you have to reduce it

I feel like they have done every convoluted, unnecessary thing to hide the fact that they cannot and will not add the most obvious features and solutions......RECOIL being one of them!

Still.....I play

Edited by AZA311, 04 February 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

If recoil was real, could you imagine what would happen when an A/C20 Raven fires that big gun? That mech would tumble roll backwards like a kicked soccer ball LOL.

A little bit of recoil might be interesting in this game, but it would need to be fairly quick and self centering (maybe more like a sharp shimmy if that makes any sense).

I don't know, hard to say if I would care for recoil or not.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

A mech is a huge and very solid bit of inertia that does not want to be moved. Weapons are on dynamic mounts with micro-actuators designed to help with fine-aim and recoil compensation. Even an AC20 fires a shell that's at most 0.14 tons, which is trivial even compared to a 35t Raven. Given how low velocity the shell is, it seems extremely unlikely that the Raven would notice much at all when the gun fires.

A Gauss might be another story, though. It fires a solid 0.1t slug of nickel-ferrous metal at very high velocity. Even there, however, the way a gauss gun works it should spread the recoil out over a small window, helping the compensators to deal with it more effectively. It could even be that, as part of the 16-ton weight requirement, much more robust recoil compensators are installed.

Regardless, the heavier the weapon, the less relative recoil it should have, and the heavier the mech, the less it would notice the recoil.

[FireSlade]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 04 February 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

A mech is a huge and very solid bit of inertia that does not want to be moved. Weapons are on dynamic mounts with micro-actuators designed to help with fine-aim and recoil compensation. Even an AC20 fires a shell that's at most 0.14 tons, which is trivial even compared to a 35t Raven. Given how low velocity the shell is, it seems extremely unlikely that the Raven would notice much at all when the gun fires.

A Gauss might be another story, though. It fires a solid 0.1t slug of nickel-ferrous metal at very high velocity. Even there, however, the way a gauss gun works it should spread the recoil out over a small window, helping the compensators to deal with it more effectively. It could even be that, as part of the 16-ton weight requirement, much more robust recoil compensators are installed.

Regardless, the heavier the weapon, the less relative recoil it should have, and the heavier the mech, the less it would notice the recoil.

That is like saying, "because of the weight of a bullet compared to a human, the recoil will not effect the person shooting it." If you take a 20+lbs .50 cal Rifle and shoulder fire that, it will kick hard. Thanks to some engineering it may not kick as hard as the target on the other end of the scope will feel but you will definitely know that you shot it. This is because of needing more energy to get that round moving instantly. More energy means more force.

There should be recoil for ballistics and PPCs but because less force is used for the smaller ballistics less recoil should be seen. Lets say someone fires an AC20 and 2 PPCs the recoil of firing all 3 weapons spreads out the shots some so that unless you are 20 meters away you do not hit with 40 points of damage to 1 area.

[Belorion]

Vehicles are not effected by recoil. If it were a human holding it, yes, it would recoil a bit. A 20 ton mech, not so much.

[FireSlade]

Belorion, on 04 February 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Vehicles are not effected by recoil. If it were a human holding it, yes, it would recoil a bit. A 20 ton mech, not so much.

Vehicles do feel the effects of recoil.

That's a 60 ton tank firing 1 105mm cannon and yet in second 14 you can see it rocking. The AC20 is described in some of the lore as being 205mm meaning much bigger recoil. With mechs and myomer, a mech has the strength to compensate and adjust to recoil caused by ballistics but during the fraction of a second that a cannon is fired there is some movement and that will throw off aim by a hair. That little loss of aim can turn into a meter distance being off the mark 600 meters down range.

The concept of adding recoil to the game is not saying that 1 AC, GR, or PPC will not hit the point that you are aiming at, but shooting 2 AC20s, 2 GRs, 2 AC10s, 4AC5s, or 4AC2s will not hit that exact spot on the mech and would possibly hit multiple sections. This is to reduce the concept of boating/alphastriking and hitting 1 area for large amounts of damage and netting them quick kills.

[Supersmacky]

FireSlade, on 04 February 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Vehicles do feel the effects of recoil.

That's a 60 ton tank firing 1 105mm cannon and yet in second 14 you can see it rocking. The AC20 is described in some of the lore as being 205mm meaning much bigger recoil. With mechs and myomer, a mech has the strength to compensate and adjust to recoil caused by ballistics but during the fraction of a second that a cannon is fired there is some movement and that will throw off aim by a hair. That little loss of aim can turn into a meter distance being off the mark 600 meters down range.

The concept of adding recoil to the game is not saying that 1 AC, GR, or PPC will not hit the point that you are aiming at, but shooting 2 AC20s, 2 GRs, 2 AC10s, 4AC5s, or 4AC2s will not hit that exact spot on the mech and would possibly hit multiple sections. This is to reduce the concept of boating/alphastriking and hitting 1 area for large amounts of damage and netting them quick kills.

If you watch the barrel carefully, it does not move because the weapon system is gyro stabilized. If you were in the tank looking through the sighting system you would see no movement at all (unless you had the weapon at the extreme ends of the elevation). It's part of what makes the Abrams a superior MBT.

For Battletech: In the end, it's just a game. If we are going to start going for realism, there is a laundry list of things that would need to be changed...

[FireSlade]

Supersmacky, on 04 February 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

If you watch the barrel carefully, it does not move because the weapon system is gyro stabilized. If you were in the tank looking through the sighting system you would see no movement at all (unless you had the weapon at the extreme ends of the elevation). It's part of what makes the Abrams a superior MBT.

For Battletech: In the end, it's just a game. If we are going to start going for realism, there is a laundry list of things that would need to be changed...

The Abrams is one of the most advanced tanks in the world and uses a German engineered, gyro stabilized, barrel and is computer controlled with a gyro stabilized camera to keep the sights on target. Also the barrel does move (watch the lump in the middle of the barrel) just horizontally into the tank to absorb some of the recoil. I used it to prove a point in saying that there is visible recoil even on a advanced MBT; so it was not too far fetched to think that a Battlemech without the gyro stabilized barrel (different gyro from the one keeping the mech standing) would feel some recoil.

I agree for realism that there are other more pressing issues but adding recoil would be for balancing boating ballistics. 1 ballistic would be fine and see no penalty but more than one and you start seeing accuracy penalties. It would also mean that we would see the same balancing for dual Gauss Rifles as dual AC20s and that Ghost heat would not be needed for AC2s and possibly AC20s. It would also lay the groundwork for balancing the UAC10/20s and LBX20s come this June.

Edited by FireSlade, 04 February 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Yiazmat]

Recoil? meh, like others have said, reasons.

it is of my opinion, however, that at an auto cannon's max range on level ground it should hit the ground. gravity. gravity is always in effect. and these cannon rounds we're firing are huge. The rounds need much more bullet drop.

this also adds a great deal more sskill in long range targets, instead of simple point and click.

it also desyncs long range cannon fire from all other weapon types by default because you have to aim in two different places... ;-)

edit* when I say max range, I meant it's optional range, ex, ac/20 would hit the dirt at 270

[Belorion]

That video was actually one I was considering using to show that there is no recoil.

So...

What Supersmacky said...

[FireSlade]

Yiazmat, on 04 February 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

Recoil? meh, like others have said, reasons.

it is of my opinion, however, that at an auto cannon's max range on level ground it should hit the ground. gravity. gravity is always in effect. and these cannon rounds we're firing are huge. The rounds need much more bullet drop.

this also adds a great deal more sskill in long range targets, instead of simple point and click.

it also desyncs long range cannon fire from all other weapon types by default because you have to aim in two different places... ;-)

edit* when I say max range, I meant it's optional range, ex, ac/20 would hit the dirt at 270

I think that there is an arc to the rounds but the computer compensates like it does with convergence. So where you point is then calculated for distance, convergence, and elevation.

[Belorion]

Ok, I will recant my position somewhat. In looking at the Striker Vehicles they do rock a bit when firing the very large caliber guns. So as the mechs get smaller, I suppose a case could be made that the AC-20 does recoil enough to effect the hud. Might be a reason the lights should avoid the larger caliber weapons if they are also wanting to shoot ML's at the same time.

[FireSlade]

I do not think that the recoil should do anything to shake the HUD, or even the mech for that matter, but instead just spread the damage a bit so that more than 1 section takes the 20+ damage. You can have the HUD show the projected in accuracy but I doubt with all of the shock absorbers, gyro, and myomer that the pilot would feel more than some vibrations (same way that you can walk with a cup of water and not spill). I believe that recoil would help curb the 30+ damage alphas that we are seeing with the 2PPC with 1-2AC5s,10s, or AC20 by making each alpha shot riskier, due to loss of accuracy, or at the very least spreading that damage to more than 1 section. Also it would balance the dual Gauss Rifle some since Ghost heat does nothing to curb it.

P.S. Something like this could also allow for the charge up mechanic to be tweaked to be easier to use. I still wish that they would make it so that a uncharged GR does not explode but a charged up one has 100% chance to do 20-30 damage.

Edited by FireSlade, 05 February 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Supersmacky]

It's a GAME set 1000+ years in the future where lasers are visible and machine guns can't hit anything beyond 240m (among a long list of problematic/physics breaking issues). Personally, I am able to deal with lack of recoil in the same way I deal with all of the other crazy/unrealistic/physically impossible aspects of the GAME: I just accept it and move on. Not a game breaker.

Cheers!

[FireSlade]

I am not saying that we should have it for realism. I am saying that I think it should be put in to balance ballistic weapons; [sarcasm] since Ghost Heat did such a great job doing that. [/sarcasm] We still see AC40 Jagermechs that fire both at the same time with little worry. It did nothing to curb dual Gauss Rifles or curb 4xAC5s, 3xAC10s, etc. In fact the only thing that it did do was hurt AC2s which with 4+ of them ran ridiculously hot anyways making them little of a threat. Using recoil to balance ballistic weapons would curb boating and would make the new meta of twin PPC + ballistic weapons less of a threat. Ballistics already have ridiculously high rates of fire compared to energy weapons and every balancing move that PGI did hurt energy weapon use and pushed for more ballistics. Ever notice that you do not see 1000+ damage games consistantly with lasers builds but that is very easy to do with ballistic centered builds?

Also in lore lasers are not visible but instead what the pilot sees is a computer graphic overlay showing the laser fire on the view screen aka the HUD. And the 240 meter in game could be explained that the MG rounds do not have the velocity past that point to damage a mech with advanced alloys.

[Supersmacky]

FireSlade, on 06 February 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Also in lore lasers are not visible but instead what the pilot sees is a computer graphic overlay showing the laser fire on the view screen aka the HUD. And the 240 meter in game could be explained that the MG rounds do not have the velocity past that point to damage a mech with advanced alloys.

Hey, FireSlade: I totally get you and understand your point. I don't completely agree, but I do get what you're saying.

Difference? As long as the laser is functional and you have the "heat" to spend, you can keep firing. Not so with ballistics (once out of ammo, they are just useless tonnage). Also, lasers don't blow up with taking a crit, but ballistic ammo can and does. I can also track better with lasers but with ballistics all the target has to do is move just a little unexpectedly from when I fire till when then round reaches the location I was aiming at and I have a clean miss. Most people take damage from AC rounds because they don't see them coming (unlike lasers, PPCs and LRMs/SRMs/SSRMs). Lasers also lead you right back to where the firer is while PPCs and ACs at best MIGHT tell you where they were when they fired.

Speaking to your point about, as I commented above, the mechs have these huge gyros that are used to maintain the balance of the mech. Also, all of the ACs have a recoil reduction (seen as the barrel sliding backwards when fired). Between these two features alone, a lot (if not all) of the recoil would be eliminated.

To your quote, if we explain away all of the aspects of other weapons that seem to defy logic/sense/physics/real-world, then the same can be done for ACs. Maybe there is an un-previously discussed mechanism to deal with the recoil issue? After all, there is no recoil issues in the table-top game and you can built ridiculous AC boats there.

All that would come from nerfing them with added recoil would be that there would be more complaining and a less satifying game experience (leading to fewer players->less revenue->less money for developers->poorer quality game->eventually no game at all).

For me, if it could be done in the Table-Top game, we need to be able to do it in MWO!

But in the end, it's all good and I do appreciate your point.

Cheers!

[FireSlade]

I would be happy with a nerf to ballistic DPS to bring it in line with energy weapons with possibly a ammo buff to help out and allow for less tons going towards ballistics. Right now it feels like if you do not bring a ballistic weapon to the match you are hurting the team. That on top of seeing players run the smallest engine that they can, cannot aim, move, or spread damage are doing well over 600 damage; where as skilled players running energy and using skill have to really play much harder to see the same numbers. On top of that most Innersphere mechs had issues with aiming, where some weapons were not correctly aligned and would often miss. In MWO we have perfect accuracy and can boat weapons alpha firing them until we hit 99% heat with no penalties that a pilot would see doing that. Just my 2 cents that MWO should be more skill based than point and click that we see with other games.