62 replies to this topic

[Voivode]

Well, I've put some thought into the state of the game and, with UAC10 & 20 about to drop on us all like a hot bag of **** you, here's what I think would improve the game.

These suggestions should be seen as a replacement to ghost heat.

AUTOCANNON

Well, much has been made about pinpoint damage in this game, especially in regards to autocannons. Rather than retread every forum post (god, how many now?) on the subject, I offer my thoughts which may be similar or identical to others.

Autocannons fire a burst of 4 rounds over a period of approximately 0.6 seconds.

This means the AC/20 fires four rounds doing 5 damage each, the AC/10 fires four rounds doing 2.5 damage each. the AC/5 fires four rounds doing 1.25 damage each, and the AC/2 fires four rounds doing 0.5 damage each.

Boost projectile speeds for all AC weapons by a small amount.

PPC & GAUSS

Now that leaves our PPC/ERPPC and Gauss Rifle as the only front loaded weapons in the game. That works for me. I might suggest increasing the heat on the PPC to 11, though. Perhaps a cooldown increase for both as well.

Both of these weapons have tremendous disadvantages in terms of heat and charge up mechanic/explosion on destruction. By having these be the only fully frontloaded, pinpoint damage weapons, those disadvantages would seem much more worthwhile to the average player. Now we have much cooler AC weapons dealing high DPS and the PPC/Gauss dealing more direct damage.

LRM

LRMs are slow, but devastating when they hit. Most effective uses of LRMs kind of disregard the "long" part of the name. I propose a speed increase to the LRM, coupled with a slight damage reduction to garner the effect of more missiles hitting without pushing them into the realm of being TOO effective.

Additionally, for players equipping Artemis IV with LRM weapons it would be nice to have a toggle between the trajectories. What I mean is, rather than have differing trajectories for Artemis IV equipped LRMs based on circumstance, let the player toggle them. It is a fire control system, after all, so allow the player to control the fire. If I'd like a higher arc on my shot, let toggle to the high arc. If I'd like the flatter trajectory, let me toggle that rather than having it be automatic.



Anyways, those are my thoughts. What do you think?

Edited by Voivode, 31 January 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[N a p e s]

I like these ideas. Good job.

Double tapping with the UACs would be so cool... Mega stream of bullets!

Edited by Napes339, 31 January 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Lokesh]

I like the idea of selecting missile trajectory with Artemis.

I dislike everything else. You're proposing to turn ACs into pulse lasers that require ammo. PPCs are just hot enough (and worthless in a face to face brawl). LRMs are right where they need to be. You can heed the warning and get to cover, unless you wander into the clear where you'll get cockpit shaken to death. More speed would be OP (damage reduction or not).

[nemesis271989]

HANDS off THE ghost heat!!!!!

[Voivode]

Lokesh, on 31 January 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

You're proposing to turn ACs into pulse lasers that require ammo.

I think that's exactly what this game needs. Right now there are too many weapons that frontload their damage and it produces a battlefield environment where mechs are no longer walking fortresses and higher DPS weapons struggle to find their place. AC fire split into a rapid succession of four shells would retain a unique flavor and advantage over energy weapons and would increase the attractiveness of LBX versions.

I have a hard time imagining the battlefield with ULTRA AC/20 & 10 using the current AC/ULTRA AC implementation being anything but a frustrating waste of time.

[Sephlock]

Quote

Autocannons fire a burst of 4 rounds over a period of approximately 0.6 seconds.

People cried *SO HARD* when we had gattling AC/2s, and PGI said something dumb to the effect that doing that must be trolling, since it was inefficient dps-wise (because fun is a strange and alien concept to them, like "love" to 1950s movie aliens), which is why chain firing ac/2s now gets you ****** by ghost heat.

So... as much as I'd love the dakka, it isn't going to happen.

Edited by Sephlock, 31 January 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[Voivode]

Well, I don't know how they plan to un-gattling cannon the Ultra AC/2 then, because double fire for that will be what, 0.26 seconds? And that's before fast fire is unlocked.

[Tangelis]

Not that these are not good ideas. Overall they have merit, but how would implementing them be a replacement for ghost heat?

Ultimately ghost heat is a control mechanic against extreme high alpha strikes consisting of all weapon types, not just AC's. I would even argue that Ghost Heat has anything to do with "balance" at all being that it doesn't effect how weapons work, just the abuse of boating them.

Changing how AC's deal their damage is one thing. Ghost Heat is another subject.

[Voivode]

I'm of the opinion that we won't need to punish alpha strikes with the changes I mentioned. By taking the majority of the frontloaded damage weapons and turning them into DPS weapons instead I think we eliminate the problem ghost heat is meant to address.

[Joseph Mallan]

Its a good write up Voivode, I just don't wanna give up my heavy hitting guns. It mixed Burst damage with my DPS damage which gives me more flexibility. Now just because others abuse it does not make it bad.

[Mcgral18]

Tangelis, on 31 January 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Not that these are not good ideas. Overall they have merit, but how would implementing them be a replacement for ghost heat?

Ultimately ghost heat is a control mechanic against extreme high alpha strikes consisting of all weapon types, not just AC's. I would even argue that Ghost Heat has anything to do with "balance" at all being that it doesn't effect how weapons work, just the abuse of boating them.

Changing how AC's deal their damage is one thing. Ghost Heat is another subject.

Making high drain weapons have a global cooldown would work, PPCs, Gauss, heck throw in AC20 if you want. Make PPCs have a cooldown of 5, and Gauss a cooldown of 6-8, removing the charge. If they are both the only frontloaded, you still have an advantage.

As is it, with instant convergeance (Cryengine can't handle progressive convergence) we have the choice to make all weapons fire straight/static, or remove frontloaded damage to prevent the exploitation of the TT armor system because of the pinpoint convergeance/ all weapons striking one panel applying all damage instantaneously.

I'd like something different, since the meta is pretty stale, and its been frontloaded damage for so long, aside from the days of splash damage doing 200%+ damage.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[VanillaG]

If you are going to do burst instead of fixed number of shells, change the number of shells based on rating. For example:

• AC/2 - 1 shell of 2 damage
  
• AC/5 - 2 shells of 2.5 damage
  
• AC/10 - 3 shells of 3.33 damage
  
• AC/20 - 4 shells of 5 damage

You can scale the interval between the shots if you want or keep them on fixed interval.

[Joseph Mallan]

VanillaG, on 01 February 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

If you are going to do burst instead of fixed number of shells, change the number of shells based on rating. For example:

• AC/2 - 1 shell of 2 damage
  
• AC/5 - 2 shells of 2.5 damage
  
• AC/10 - 3 shells of 3.33 damage
  
• AC/20 - 4 shells of 5 damage

You can scale the interval between the shots if you want or keep them on fixed interval.

Just remember to scale the heat per shot so an AC20 is still making 6 heat per burst.
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What I can't disagree with the idea but have an acceptable suggestion to keep it feel right?

[Voivode]

That's an interesting thought Vanilla. It takes care of a problem I had just bouncing the thoughts around: how to keep the AC/2 and AC/5 viable as long range weapons. A graduated system of shell numbers could also ensure that the UAC variations give a boost to DPS without overwhelming the game.

Joseph Mallan, on 01 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Just remember to scale the heat per shot so an AC20 is still making 6 heat per burst.
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What I can't disagree with the idea but have an acceptable suggestion to keep it feel right?

Yeah, the heat levels on AC weapons seem right as they are. I agree, this would have to be done carefully so the weapons still retained their place. An AC/20 should be a powerful weapon, so if it is changed from frontloaded damage to a stream of 4 rounds perhaps a small reduction in recycle and increase in speed since the current values reflect the frontloaded damage?

[PanzerMagier]

Maybe different amount of projectiles per AC, different variants... speed of each mini projectile, spread, interval between shots... Would be nice. Like CANNON Battletech

[Varent]

Voivode, on 31 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Well, I've put some thought into the state of the game and, with UAC10 & 20 about to drop on us all like a hot bag of **** you, here's what I think would improve the game.

These suggestions should be seen as a replacement to ghost heat.

AUTOCANNON

Well, much has been made about pinpoint damage in this game, especially in regards to autocannons. Rather than retread every forum post (god, how many now?) on the subject, I offer my thoughts which may be similar or identical to others.

Autocannons fire a burst of 4 rounds over a period of approximately 0.6 seconds.

This means the AC/20 fires four rounds doing 5 damage each, the AC/10 fires four rounds doing 2.5 damage each. the AC/5 fires four rounds doing 1.25 damage each, and the AC/2 fires four rounds doing 0.5 damage each.

Boost projectile speeds for all AC weapons by a small amount.

PPC & GAUSS

Now that leaves our PPC/ERPPC and Gauss Rifle as the only front loaded weapons in the game. That works for me. I might suggest increasing the heat on the PPC to 11, though. Perhaps a cooldown increase for both as well.

Both of these weapons have tremendous disadvantages in terms of heat and charge up mechanic/explosion on destruction. By having these be the only fully frontloaded, pinpoint damage weapons, those disadvantages would seem much more worthwhile to the average player. Now we have much cooler AC weapons dealing high DPS and the PPC/Gauss dealing more direct damage.

LRM

LRMs are slow, but devastating when they hit. Most effective uses of LRMs kind of disregard the "long" part of the name. I propose a speed increase to the LRM, coupled with a slight damage reduction to garner the effect of more missiles hitting without pushing them into the realm of being TOO effective.

Additionally, for players equipping Artemis IV with LRM weapons it would be nice to have a toggle between the trajectories. What I mean is, rather than have differing trajectories for Artemis IV equipped LRMs based on circumstance, let the player toggle them. It is a fire control system, after all, so allow the player to control the fire. If I'd like a higher arc on my shot, let toggle to the high arc. If I'd like the flatter trajectory, let me toggle that rather than having it be automatic.



Anyways, those are my thoughts. What do you think?

I think this is a bad idea for the ac as it would remove the major mechanic of how they work from the game and make them too much like lasers.

The PPC is already a very hot weapon. I dont think you need to increase the heat of it anymore.

The only thing removing ghost heat would do is help large lasers, wich you could aid in other ways. You could alter the amount that it takes to effect ghost heat. For example raising it to 3.

FLD is a mechanic that is a playstyle. It should be allowed to remain in the game so you do not ostracize a group of players.

[Khobai]

Quote

The PPC is already a very hot weapon. I dont think you need to increase the heat of it anymore.

I think they should decrease the heat on PPCs but also make them do part of their damage to adjacent locations.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I think they should decrease the heat on PPCs but also make them do part of their damage to adjacent locations.

I dunno about decreasing them.... I think there in a good place heat wise with jump sniping. Any less heat and it could get silly. Anymore heat and it could be undoable. What I would love to see is changes in jump jets or at least some testing done with them to see if things can be modified. I was rather dissapointed with the recent update to what they are looking into to note they werent looking into JJ at all.

[Draconis March]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Its a good write up Voivode, I just don't wanna give up my heavy hitting guns. It mixed Burst damage with my DPS damage which gives me more flexibility. Now just because others abuse it does not make it bad.

Just because you like it doesn't mean it's good for the state of the game.

[Khobai]

Quote

Any less heat and it could get silly.

Nah. They generate too much heat now. Weapons generate so much heat mechs like the battlemaster cant even use all their energy hardpoints.

The heat has got to be lowered on weapons, otherwise whats the point of giving mechs 8-10 hardpoints if they cant use them all? So lower heat is the only thing that makes sense. The solution is to lower heat but also lower damage. So you can use all your hardpoints then without it being OP.

Edited by Khobai, 01 February 2014 - 11:58 AM.