13 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

Okay we all know why this was added in, to prevent med laser boating. That and the bump to 4 heat in closed beta made them decent, but not OP.

The issue is that the weapon balance has changed tremendously since then. We are now in a position where people simply boat ballistics so they can hold down the fire button and not have to worry about heat, while someone using a balanced build has to struggle with not overheating.

Part of the problem is that lasers do not dissipate heat for their burn duration. This is very very significant and partly why lasers are underpowered (yes they are, you dont see the top players boating lasers, they boat PPC/ballistics).

Some maths :

Most mechs will top out at 18 DHS with weapons. You can go up to 22 or so in a stalker with a standard engine, but that wont leave you much room for weapons. 18 DHS will dissipate 25.2 heat every 10 seconds. That sounds a lot, but given how heavily weighted hot maps are in comparison to cold ones, you can and will still overheat a lot. The most common maps in the game are desert, terra therma, caustic, crimson strait, canyon, HPG manifold and alpine. That is three hot maps, two neutral and two cold ones.

4 med lasers alone generate 14 heat per 3.85 seconds. Thats roughly 36 heat every 10 seconds. As an added bonus, your heatsinks do nothing for 3 of that 10 seconds. So your actual heat dissipation isn't 25.2 per 10 seconds, it's actually 17.64. Doesnt sound a lot now does it?

This is simply a non factor for competitive players who run the meta builds that have no lasers in them...their heatsinks work 100% of the time. They dont use lasers because they run super hot and you are stuck not being able to shoot while getting torn to pieces by meta builds who dont have to worry about heat.

Here's a simple change that may bump lasers up to a more competitive evel : allow them to dissipate heat during the burn time. This change wont make them overpowered, it simply puts them on par with all other weapons in the game. It is extremely unfair that you cannot dissipate heat during the burn time...large lasers actually run as hot, if not hotter than PPCs when you consider that your heatsinks do nothing for the burn duration. Little wonder that most players choose PPCs over large lasers.

And then we can see how balanced they are and tweak numbers as necessary. It doesnt require super hard coding or anything to do, just changing some XML values. Given the reluctance of PGI to tweak weapon stats though, i doubt this will happen...

[Durant Carlyle]

PPC/ballistics are boated because they are FLD weapons. You only have to hold the reticle on target (whether that's directly on the target or leading it if moving) for just long enough to press Fire and the entire damage will go to a single location.

Having said that, laser heat should be dissipated just like other heat.

[FupDup]

Shameless bump.

[Cart]

As long as Ghost-Heat stays, I would say yes!
Another nice thing would be, if they would build up the heat of the time, like they do their damge. And if it wouldn't fire it's full beam-time automatically, but only as long, as you hold the trigger. In that way, you could save you some heat...when you can't track your target further. (When it's in cover or somewhat like this) And you could avoid friendly fire, in case where someone runs into your Laser-Beam.

If they'd remove Ghost-Heat anyday, I wouldn't be sure about this...

Edited by Cart, 10 May 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

I don't mind lasers building up their heat near instantly to counter firing lasers for practically 0 heat, but not allowing them to dissipate heat during their burn duration isn't just counter-intuitive but also highly illogical. They are basically punishing chain firing multiple lasers as they won't allow your heat to dissipate. We already have Ghost heat to punish Alphas, we don't need nonsensical mechanics to punish chain fire that should almost never be punished or crippled in its usefulness.

[lashropa]

The case for chain firing makes much sense. In a difficult battle it's tough enough to keep your beams focused without sustaining critical damage against single-fire pinpoint damage builds. The fact that you've effectively disabled your heat sinks for the duration of your attack severely limits your ability to retaliate while their weapons recycle. Which is supposed to be your moment to shine.

It's a tough spot to be in and I find myself there over and over again because I refuse to pilot 'sniper' builds, exclusively.

[ManDaisy]

why is it laser shot acts like a ppc in terms of heat generation? I also agree lasers should
Dissipate heat in the beam duration

[L Y N X]

I think some of you are combing the ideas and game mechanics of Heat dissipation and heat build up. I lose heat even as I added heat by chain firing lasers. During Burn time that Laser is adding heat the mech is still dissipating heat (ie. the other lasers are not generating heat and the heat sinks work. It may seem like they are not but if you get your H.E. to 1.5+ then you can tell that Heat dissipation is working. Oh you may be confusing Cooldowns with Heat dissipation.

Think about how a laser works, during burn time, heat is generated. The mech is cooling the entire time. and if the game is not doing this, I'm surprised, as it feels like it is.

Edited by 7ynx, 16 May 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

7ynx, on 16 May 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

I think some of you are combing the ideas and game mechanics of Heat dissipation and heat build up. I lose heat even as I added heat by chain firing lasers. During Burn time that Laser is adding heat the mech is still dissipating heat (ie. the other lasers are not generating heat and the heat sinks work. It may seem like they are not but if you get your H.E. to 1.5+ then you can tell that Heat dissipation is working. Oh you may be confusing Cooldowns with Heat dissipation.

Think about how a laser works, during burn time, heat is generated. The mech is cooling the entire time. and if the game is not doing this, I'm surprised, as it feels like it is.

Maybe, but then again there maybe another variable, heat retention also at work.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2945221

This kinda thing should be worth asking about, now that I'm thinking about it again.

[Tesunie]

7ynx, on 16 May 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

I think some of you are combing the ideas and game mechanics of Heat dissipation and heat build up. I lose heat even as I added heat by chain firing lasers. During Burn time that Laser is adding heat the mech is still dissipating heat (ie. the other lasers are not generating heat and the heat sinks work. It may seem like they are not but if you get your H.E. to 1.5+ then you can tell that Heat dissipation is working. Oh you may be confusing Cooldowns with Heat dissipation.

Think about how a laser works, during burn time, heat is generated. The mech is cooling the entire time. and if the game is not doing this, I'm surprised, as it feels like it is.

I was going to say this, as in another thread (about ghost heat) Koniving had to prove that lasers dissipate heat as they are shooting (beam duration).
The thread Koniving mentioned this in was asking why, when they fired 3-4 LLs, the heat percentage of their mech didn't match the supposed heat generated by the weapons, even with ghost heat. The person noticed it when shooting one LL bright him up to X% heat level. When he fired two large lasers, his heat percentage wasn't 2X%, but ended up being a hotter Y%. As he progressed the heat up, the trend continued.

As far as I know, your heat is dissipated as you are shooting your lasers. It has seemed that way to me in the games I have played. I'm not saying I can't be wrong, but by my understanding, it already does as OP requests.

[Tesunie]

Recommended test for OP to preform:
Go to testing grounds with a laser build. Shoot one laser and observe your heat percentage gained. (Try this with med lasers for probably more accurate results.) Record this number. Cool down back to baseline.
Shoot two lasers. Observe your heat scale again and record that number. Cool down back to baseline.
Shoot three lasers. Observe your heat scale again and record that number. Cool down back to baseline.
Repeat for as many lasers as desired.


I think you will find that your first laser fired is the coolest, and the rest will gain a set amount of heat "extra" over the first shot.
Random example with random numbers: Say you shoot one laser. You generate up to 8% of your heat. shoot two lasers and generate up to 18% heat. There is more heat "generated" at once, but same cooling. You shoot three lasers, and generate 28% heat. The reason (in this random example) that your first shot was cooler was because 2% of your heat was cooled from your shot as your beam was shooting. (Last warning, these numbers are made up, but should get what I mean. Your numbers wont be so neat and precise as my example.)

[Jun Watarase]

Hmm thats weird i distinctively remember that PGI said lasers didnt dissipate heat until the burn time was over but i guess they changed their minds at some point.

Also if PGI really was reading this forum i would expect them to hop in here and say "oh yea it already does that", so either they dont read it or they just CBF to post....

This makes it even weirder because its super easy to overheat even with 22 DHS and a couple of lasers....i guess its just that DHS dont dissipate enough heat.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 18 May 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

I took the liberty of doing a proper test in an unholy abomination consisting of 4 Medium Lasers and 40 SHS. The test has proven that it is possible to chain fire all 4 MLs at a constant 4 heat per second (each laser generates 4 heat over a 1 second burn == 4hps) and generate 0 heat aside from passive heat caused by the engine. Lasers do not disable Heat sinks but the heat per second generated by them is usually more than most builds can handle.

[Tesunie]

Jun Watarase, on 18 May 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

Hmm thats weird i distinctively remember that PGI said lasers didnt dissipate heat until the burn time was over but i guess they changed their minds at some point. Also if PGI really was reading this forum i would expect them to hop in here and say "oh yea it already does that", so either they dont read it or they just CBF to post.... This makes it even weirder because its super easy to overheat even with 22 DHS and a couple of lasers....i guess its just that DHS dont dissipate enough heat.

With how many threads pop up in the forums every hour... who do you expect them to respond to each and every question/response?

SethAbercromby, on 18 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

I took the liberty of doing a proper test in an unholy abomination consisting of 4 Medium Lasers and 40 SHS. The test has proven that it is possible to chain fire all 4 MLs at a constant 4 heat per second (each laser generates 4 heat over a 1 second burn == 4hps) and generate 0 heat aside from passive heat caused by the engine. Lasers do not disable Heat sinks but the heat per second generated by them is usually more than most builds can handle.

Thanks for doing the work and proving it one way or the other. Great job!