183 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

MungFuSensei, on 07 February 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Yeah, but the majority of your firepower is located in your arms. You lose one arm and your threat level drops dramatically. A jenner, as long as it is still alive, is almost always at full threat level because you can't really disarm it. It's either dead, or it has its full weapon loadout. Nothing in between. So while a firestarter may be more durable and stick in the fight longer due to sacrificial arms, losing those arms pretty much neuters the mech (except for mine, because I'm a weirdo and run an LB10x and 2 MLs).

Arm with a quarter of your weapons or your life...pick one.

[MungFuSensei]

dario03, on 07 February 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

That would be good if the Jenner CT had a bunch more armor than a firestarter but it doesn't. So yeah you lose a good bit of your firepower if the fire starter gets a arm blown off but you're still alive so your still doing some damage or can run off and cap if in those modes. Mean while any bullet, laser, ppc, missle, etc is magnetically attracted to the Jenner's CT so it doesn't matter if you still have your arms when you die, you still can't do anything.

When your firepower is reduced, your likelihood of dying is increased. Your enemy can withstand your firepower for longer, thus allowing him to poor more damage into you. I'm not saying this makes the Jenner better, but it is an equivalent trade.

This situation is very similar to the difference between the Catapult A1 and Catapult K2. The A1 has all of its firepower in its arms, and thus the arms draw much more attention, saving the center torso from harm. However, when you've seen a one-armed A1 fight, you know it is at a severe disadvantage. The K2, on the other hand, has most of its weapons in the torsos, and thus draws more attention there. However, it is still very dangerous despite this fact, because you can't really strip it in order to deal with it more favorably. You MUST withstand its full firepower while trying to core it. Understand?

Wispsy, on 07 February 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

Arm with a quarter of your weapons or your life...pick one.

Not a quarter of your weapons, but an almost 50% reduction in firepower. Those machine guns are worthless until you break armor, and you can't break armor without your lasers.

[Denolven]

MungFuSensei, on 07 February 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

losing those arms pretty much neuters the mech (except for mine, because I'm a weirdo and run an LB10x and 2 MLs).

+1 for proper weaponry
Coming from the weirdo who plays his Commando with single heatsinks to take more ammo

Edited by Denolven, 07 February 2014 - 02:57 AM.

[Wispsy]

MungFuSensei, on 07 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

When your firepower is reduced, your likelihood of dying is increased. Your enemy can withstand your firepower for longer, thus allowing him to poor more damage into you. I'm not saying this makes the Jenner better, but it is an equivalent trade.

This situation is very similar to the difference between the Catapult A1 and Catapult K2. The A1 has all of its firepower in its arms, and thus the arms draw much more attention, saving the center torso from harm. However, when you've seen a one-armed A1 fight, you know it is at a severe disadvantage. The K2, on the other hand, has most of its weapons in the torsos, and thus draws more attention there. However, it is still very dangerous despite this fact, because you can't really strip it in order to deal with it more favorably. You MUST withstand its full firepower while trying to core it. Understand?



Not a quarter of your weapons, but an almost 50% reduction in firepower. Those machine guns are worthless until you break armor, and you can't break armor without your lasers.

Well you personally do not have to break every piece of armour. By the time you have lost both arms, not only would you normally be dead in a Jenner, you are probably running around with loads of hurt mechs. If the enemy is all fresh it was not a game you could carry in a light mech anyway. I am actually really happy with the hardpoints. By the time I lose both arms (which is not common anyway for me) then the enemy is all so hurt I just need to do happy fun cleanup with machine guns. Even if you only had medium lasers, I would still give up half my damage in exchange for my life.

[MungFuSensei]

Wispsy, on 07 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Well you personally do not have to break every piece of armour. By the time you have lost both arms, not only would you normally be dead in a Jenner, you are probably running around with loads of hurt mechs. If the enemy is all fresh it was not a game you could carry in a light mech anyway. I am actually really happy with the hardpoints. By the time I lose both arms (which is not common anyway for me) then the enemy is all so hurt I just need to do happy fun cleanup with machine guns. Even if you only had medium lasers, I would still give up half my damage in exchange for my life.

I'm not talking about losing both arms. Just the loss of one arm is enough. You forget that offense is also a defense. Every time you go to fight a mech, you do a little mental calculation in the back of your head about how much damage you will take trying to defeat it. The higher that number, the more circumspect you will be in facing it. In other words, fear is another form of defense. Thus, the jenner may have more to fear from being hit, but that doesn't mean it is less dangerous.

Again, I am not arguing about which is the better mech. The point of my argument is that everyone thinks that Ember has dethroned the Jenner. This is not the case. It just has to share the seat.

[Wispsy]

MungFuSensei, on 07 February 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

I'm not talking about losing both arms. Just the loss of one arm is enough. You forget that offense is also a defense. Every time you go to fight a mech, you do a little mental calculation in the back of your head about how much damage you will take trying to defeat it. The higher that number, the more circumspect you will be in facing it. In other words, fear is another form of defense. Thus, the jenner may have more to fear from being hit, but that doesn't mean it is less dangerous.

Again, I am not arguing about which is the better mech. The point of my argument is that everyone thinks that Ember has dethroned the Jenner. This is not the case. It just has to share the seat.

I really think you are misunderstanding what I am saying here. The Jenner is dethroned. It does not matter that your threat went down by even 50% (which one arm is definitely not, I am guessing you have not played the 5K and do not really understand what machine guns can do) it is still a better trade then your life, which is what would have ended had you been hit by the same number of shots in a Jenner causing you to lose ct and not arm.
You are literally arguing that you would rather be a Jenner because you have more 'threat' with no ct then with no arm...Not only that, but even if you lose both arms, causing you to live at least twice as long, you STILL have weapons and whilst they are not very effective against armour they sure as hell kill people still as evidenced by all the 8/9kill games the 5K gets without 4 medium lasers and all its machine guns (its only damage) in the arms...

[Kaeseblock]

The biggest advantage of the Firestarter over the Jenner is, that you can effectively torso-twist. If you do it right and avoid being hit by too many AC20 shots you can go down to about 30% "health" and still be fully operational (all sections on orange internals, but you still got all weapons and run at full speed).

[MungFuSensei]

Wispsy, on 07 February 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

I really think you are misunderstanding what I am saying here. The Jenner is dethroned. It does not matter that your threat went down by even 50% (which one arm is definitely not, I am guessing you have not played the 5K and do not really understand what machine guns can do) it is still a better trade then your life, which is what would have ended had you been hit by the same number of shots in a Jenner causing you to lose ct and not arm.
You are literally arguing that you would rather be a Jenner because you have more 'threat' with no ct then with no arm...Not only that, but even if you lose both arms, causing you to live at least twice as long, you STILL have weapons and whilst they are not very effective against armour they sure as hell kill people still as evidenced by all the 8/9kill games the 5K gets without 4 medium lasers and all its machine guns (its only damage) in the arms...

You are also pretending that in our hypothetical situation that the arms are the only thing being hit, or that the CT is the only thing being hit on the jenner. You completely ignored what I said about threat level being its own defense. You are arguing from what is on paper, not how it is played in the actual game! This isn't a game of two people just standing there shooting eachother in the face until one dies.

Now, let's go back to the threat level argument I was making. Imagine you're in a blackjack, and it's late game. You're hurt, you have a torso with no armor in which there are engine critical slots. Now, you have two opponents left. One is an Ember with one arm, and the other is a jenner with two arms but an exposed CT. Which do you fear more? Which will you attack more brazenly? The Ember, if you can leg him, will be of little threat to you, since you can hide your exposed torso from his machine guns once he has been slowed down. The jenner, if legged, will remain something that you do not want to stand in front of, as it doesn't care as much about your armor or lack of it, due to a higher alpha.

So the advantage that the Ember has over the Jenner is situational, and vice versa. That doesn't mean the Jenner is dethroned. It just means there is a mech that does something better than it.

[Wispsy]

Why would you leg a Jenner with an exposed ct?

90% of the time a Jenner will die to ct or legs. That is usually the only places on the mech that get hit at all (and the legs are much harder to hit). The arms are the only things being hit because you are putting them in the way...Now the Ember has clearly been shot more times then the Jenner if he is missing an arm and the Jenner is only ct exposed, what kind of hypothetical situation is that, so biased :/. Now, lets imagine the Ember got shot in the ct, he can still afford to engage opponents and kill them. The Jenner once the ct is exposed is basically out of the fight (unless you are fighting people who do not use R and have absolutely no mouse control at all). You can choose where to spread damage on the Ember, you cannot do this on the Jenner. Not only that but you have 4 machine guns in your torso, in case you do lose BOTH arms (which means 100% you have survived what would have killed a Jenner). 4 machine guns are nothing to scoff at, you show your ignorance by ignoring them in your posts. Those 4 machine guns are worth more then 2medlas. My machine gun Spider (with a medpls) is tied for first place in my most 9kill games. Not only do they have great killing potential on exposed targets (the targets that light mechs go after) but they cause pretty much zero heat and can be fired constantly. Now you ask me which I would be more scared of, a cored Jenner or an armed Ember. I would be way more scared of the Ember. I can shoot the Jenner in the ct and they will die, simple as that. It is very unlikely I am ever going to shoot the Jenner and not hit the ct. The Ember however presents more problems. Even if it has lost an arm that does not mean the rest of it is anywhere near to death. He can block my shots with the other arm, take a side torso hit, jump a shot or 2 for some leg damage as well.

You are taking this as some 'if you lose an arm in the Ember you are not as effect as a Jenner will both arms' kind of discussion but it is not...because if you get shot enough to lose an arm (and by the way you should be always facing your least damaged side at them so both arms should be hurt before you lose one anyway) then YOU WOULD BE DEAD IN A JENNER. Like literally almost every single time. THERE IS NO THREAT AT ALL FROM DEAD TARGETS.

Edit: Also the Ember is FAR less affected by SSRMs then a Jenner.

Edited by Wispsy, 07 February 2014 - 05:05 AM.

[dario03]

The one downside to the hitbox of the Firestarters compared to Jenners would be if coming up against somebody with a 40 or higher pin point damage build. If you came up against a FS9 or Jenner and got a clear shot then the FS9 would be easier to hit in the side torso and thus easier to kill since hitting the Jenner's side torso is harder and it would live a FCT hit. However against any other build the FS9 should be able to spread its damage a lot more so this basically comes down to either legging them or comparing the FS9's LA, RA, LT, RT, CT to the Jenner's CT.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Finally able to play...they felt bigger than Jenner's and died just as easily for my Shadow Hawk.

Might be a bit stronger, but not enough for me to care and certainly not "controversial".

[Wispsy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 February 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Finally able to play...they felt bigger than Jenner's and died just as easily for my Shadow Hawk.

Might be a bit stronger, but not enough for me to care and certainly not "controversial".

Well they are still light mechs...

That is like saying "well the Shadowhawk just came out and seems like a slightly stronger medium but in my Highlander I still kill them in a couple of shots".

Edited by Wispsy, 07 February 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Wispsy, on 07 February 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

Edit: Also the Ember is FAR less affected by SSRMs then a Jenner.

Please explain...I'm wondering why? I've found SSRM lights to be rather annoying in my Ember (please assume that one finds you and your only option is to fight it, 1 on 1, fresh, for the sake of the argument)).

In my Ember I find that people go for the legs...not the arms. As with all lights, a legged light is a dead light...and the Embers legs take hits just fine.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 07 February 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Wispsy, on 07 February 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Well they are still light mechs...

That is like saying "well the Shadowhawk just came out and seems like a slightly stronger medium but in my Highlander I still kill them in a couple of shots".

No, the jump from the current (at the time) Medium's to a Shadow Hawk was huge. I can't even describe it.

It's like if you had only Commando's and Locust's then introduced the Firestarter.

But with the Spider, Jenner and Raven in the mix, the Firestarter is just eh, whatever.

But the Shadow Hawk is an absolute beast Medium and trumps every other Medium in the game by far.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 07 February 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[Wispsy]

Ghost Badger, on 07 February 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

Please explain...I'm wondering why? I've found SSRM lights to be rather annoying in my Ember (please assume that one finds you and your only option is to fight it, 1 on 1, fresh, for the sake of the argument)).

In my Ember I find that people go for the legs...not the arms. As with all lights, a legged light is a dead light...and the Embers legs take hits just fine.

Because you get more choice where they hit. The legs are indeed its weakest point, same with every mech. To be honest after watching and participating in a number of Jenner duels between Fs and Ds the SSRMs get caught on the ct really often. With the legs, if they are piloting well, you need to go through almost all of the armour on both legs to take one out. SSRMs will also spread between both legs. The Jenner you just need to go for the ct, most SSRMs will hit ct, your lasers will not really miss ct at any angle, ct has less health then both legs + other components SSRMs are hitting (especially arms which get in the way of them if you twist into it).

[Fang01]

As a new humanoid Mech with the thong box from launch, if you're aiming above the belt you're doing it wrong.

[Satan n stuff]

Roadkill, on 06 February 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Off the top of my head, we're getting A, Ember, H, K, and S. But not S1.

Screw the S1, I want an AWS-9Q.

[Skyfaller]

JohnnyWayne, on 05 February 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

Well finally the light players get a viable light and now people cry... But yeah... I don't know. I think a good gamedesigner doesn't let older content die in favor of new content. So both have a point.

Lights aren't supposed to be damage dealers nor be brawling with stuff bigger than them on their own. The jenner almost can do this thanks to its medium-mech equivalent armament and light mech speed plus armor between a medium and a light.

This thing is literally a heavy-end medium mech with the speed of a light mech.

[Adiuvo]

MungFuSensei, on 07 February 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Try shooting the arms off of a jenner. Then try shooting the arms off a firestarter. "Better hitboxes"....no. Please stop judging the mech from its stats on paper. In practice it is not the light-god everyone is making it out to be.

I own an Ember, I know the hitboxes. Compared to a Jenner's CT the arms aren't a problem. At all.

Funnily enough you're the one who sounds like you're talking about the mech based off of paper assessments...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Adiuvo, on 07 February 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

I own an Ember, I know the hitboxes. Compared to a Jenner's CT the arms aren't a problem. At all.

Funnily enough you're the one who sounds like you're talking about the mech based off of paper assessments...

It's still just a basic light mech though.

It will take advantage of players who can't hit light mechs.

And it will die to Streaks and players who can hit light mechs.

It might be a bit better than a Jenner, but it doesn't change much. And in this game with no role warfare it really doesn't bring anything new to the table.