183 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

MungFuSensei, on 08 February 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

you wanna take on Embers, don't aim for the legs. LB10X is probably weapon of choice

Please do not give advice to anybody for a very long time.

[MungFuSensei]

Wispsy, on 08 February 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Please do not give advice to anybody for a very long time.

Please, grace me with your vastly superior knowledge. Explain why I am wrong.

The reason we tend to aim for a light's legs is because the majority of weapons people use are lasers. Legs make an ideal target for lasers because as they move they criss-cross through the beam multiple times throughout its duration. Thus, you get the most out of your beam and damage both legs at once. With direct fire weapons, legs are a poor target, because the chance of a miss is higher, completely wasting the shot. Thus, you want to aim them at the biggest chunk of the mech, which in the case of the Ember is the upper body. 10-15 damage to the torso of an Ember is no joke for the Ember pilot. Trying to do that with lasers is quite difficult. Doing that with ballistics isn't hard. Three well placed shots in this manner can end them quite quickly.

I chose the LB10X as weapon of choice because A) It's easier to hit with It fires fairly rapidly and C) it only takes approximately 5 salvos (12.5 seconds, can an ember kill anything else in 12.5 seconds that isn't already half dead?). It also has decent range and isn't overly heavy. Easy to fit on anything 35 tons and up. It's incredibly efficient.

If I were doing like everyone else does and just shoots their legs with medium lasers, could I leg them in 12.5 seconds? No, even in a 6 MLas Jenner I'd need probably 30 seconds, which gives them much more time to either hurt me back or run away to their friends.

[Khobai]

So back to the topic? Ember > all

They should maybe try to balance lights with module slots.

Firestarter - 1 module
Jenner - 2 modules
Raven/Spider - 3 modules
Commando/Locust/Flea - 4 modules
Really bad variants - +1 modules (i.e. Jenner-k)

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Adiuvo]

MungFuSensei, on 08 February 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Please, grace me with your vastly superior knowledge. Explain why I am wrong.

The reason we tend to aim for a light's legs is because the majority of weapons people use are lasers. Legs make an ideal target for lasers because as they move they criss-cross through the beam multiple times throughout its duration. Thus, you get the most out of your beam and damage both legs at once. With direct fire weapons, legs are a poor target, because the chance of a miss is higher, completely wasting the shot. Thus, you want to aim them at the biggest chunk of the mech, which in the case of the Ember is the upper body. 10-15 damage to the torso of an Ember is no joke for the Ember pilot. Trying to do that with lasers is quite difficult. Doing that with ballistics isn't hard. Three well placed shots in this manner can end them quite quickly.

I chose the LB10X as weapon of choice because A) It's easier to hit with It fires fairly rapidly and C) it only takes approximately 5 salvos (12.5 seconds, can an ember kill anything else in 12.5 seconds that isn't already half dead?). It also has decent range and isn't overly heavy. Easy to fit on anything 35 tons and up. It's incredibly efficient.

If I were doing like everyone else does and just shoots their legs with medium lasers, could I leg them in 12.5 seconds? No, even in a 6 MLas Jenner I'd need probably 30 seconds, which gives them much more time to either hurt me back or run away to their friends.

You're going to spread damage everywhere shooting at anything but legs with any weapon, especially if you're using a LBX.

[YueFei]

MungFuSensei, on 08 February 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Please, grace me with your vastly superior knowledge. Explain why I am wrong.

The reason we tend to aim for a light's legs is because the majority of weapons people use are lasers. Legs make an ideal target for lasers because as they move they criss-cross through the beam multiple times throughout its duration. Thus, you get the most out of your beam and damage both legs at once. With direct fire weapons, legs are a poor target, because the chance of a miss is higher, completely wasting the shot. Thus, you want to aim them at the biggest chunk of the mech, which in the case of the Ember is the upper body. 10-15 damage to the torso of an Ember is no joke for the Ember pilot. Trying to do that with lasers is quite difficult. Doing that with ballistics isn't hard. Three well placed shots in this manner can end them quite quickly.

I chose the LB10X as weapon of choice because A) It's easier to hit with It fires fairly rapidly and C) it only takes approximately 5 salvos (12.5 seconds, can an ember kill anything else in 12.5 seconds that isn't already half dead?). It also has decent range and isn't overly heavy. Easy to fit on anything 35 tons and up. It's incredibly efficient.

If I were doing like everyone else does and just shoots their legs with medium lasers, could I leg them in 12.5 seconds? No, even in a 6 MLas Jenner I'd need probably 30 seconds, which gives them much more time to either hurt me back or run away to their friends.

A pilot's marksmanship is the factor here.

One analogy is: if I had to tell an untrained person to go fight a plate-armored man, I'd probably tell him to grab a warhammer. A sword in his hands would be a poor choice.

But a trained fighter would know how to half-sword and work the point into the gaps, or reverse it and use the quillons. And on top of that he would be able to use that sword on unarmored foes, too. In the same way that skilled marksmen in MWO are able to use pin-point weapons like PPCs and autocannons and hit Light mechs with those weapons, not just able to hit bigger and slower targets like enemy Heavies and Assaults.

Weapons like streaks and LBX are for people who haven't built up the skill it takes to hit small and fast moving light mechs. I don't mean this in a disparaging way, my own marksmanship falls short, as well. You may personally consider pin-point weapons like PPC and autocannon to be poor choices for shooting at Light mechs, and in your hands this may hold true. If that is the case, though, the better remedy may be to practice your shooting skills with pin-point weapons, rather than continue to rely on LBX.

[Satan n stuff]

YueFei, on 08 February 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

A pilot's marksmanship is the factor here.

One analogy is: if I had to tell an untrained person to go fight a plate-armored man, I'd probably tell him to grab a warhammer. A sword in his hands would be a poor choice.

But a trained fighter would know how to half-sword and work the point into the gaps, or reverse it and use the quillons. And on top of that he would be able to use that sword on unarmored foes, too. In the same way that skilled marksmen in MWO are able to use pin-point weapons like PPCs and autocannons and hit Light mechs with those weapons, not just able to hit bigger and slower targets like enemy Heavies and Assaults.

Weapons like streaks and LBX are for people who haven't built up the skill it takes to hit small and fast moving light mechs. I don't mean this in a disparaging way, my own marksmanship falls short, as well. You may personally consider pin-point weapons like PPC and autocannon to be poor choices for shooting at Light mechs, and in your hands this may hold true. If that is the case, though, the better remedy may be to practice your shooting skills with pin-point weapons, rather than continue to rely on LBX.

Streaks and LB 10-X will be more consistent, regardless of your accuracy. If you're using pinpoint weapons against lights you take the risk that you miss, or hit the wrong part of the mech.
I advise aiming for the torso on lights only if you can drop the target in one shot, or if it's big enough that you can reliably hit the same section multiple times. ( that means Jenners )
Ballistics are somewhat less reliable than lasers when you're aiming for the legs, but the leg movement has more or less the same effect on overall damage output for both weapon types. The difference is lasers deal consistent low damage while most ballistics deal less consistent high damage. Aiming for the hips is a pretty good way of consistently damaging legs with any weapon except missiles, but if your aim is off you'll deal practically no damage. If your aim is bad you're better off going for the knees and hoping for the best.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 09 February 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[YueFei]

Satan n stuff, on 09 February 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:

Streaks and LB 10-X will be more consistent, regardless of your accuracy. If you're using pinpoint weapons against lights you take the risk that you miss, or hit the wrong part of the mech.

I disagree. Let's say you have an 60% accuracy with pin-point weapons against Light mechs. Why would you bother with sand-papering weapons like LB or streaks? Even with perfect accuracy with LB you are sanding off armor all over the Light mech. Landing 2 hits with pin-point weapons is worth more than landing 7 or 8 shots of LB-10X. LB-10X simply doesn't frighten me in my Jenner. It's not that it won't eventually kill me, but it takes time to do so, and I have time to react, re-assess the situation, disengage, etc. With pin-point weapons, I go from healthy to potentially dying on the next shot my enemy takes.

When I step out in front of someone who has excellent aim, I die in a couple shots. The only way I survive is if I take shots from angles where they aren't looking and get back into cover, and if you get shot from an angle you weren't covering, it doesn't matter what weapon you have, you aren't going to be able to retaliate anyways.

I do believe that if someone's accuracy with pin-point weapons dips below a certain threshold, then they are better off with the alternatives.

Quote

I advise aiming for the torso on lights only if you can drop the target in one shot, or if it's big enough that you can reliably hit the same section multiple times. ( that means Jenners )
Ballistics are somewhat less reliable than lasers when you're aiming for the legs, but the leg movement has more or less the same effect on overall damage output for both weapon types. The difference is lasers deal consistent low damage while most ballistics deal less consistent high damage. Aiming for the hips is a pretty good way of consistently damaging legs with any weapon except missiles, but if your aim is off you'll deal practically no damage. If your aim is bad you're better off going for the knees and hoping for the best.

Sure, if someone's aim is shaky, it's better if they use weapons they can at least contribute with, rather than flinging pin-point weapons around and missing all the time dealing 0 damage.

I think that's why certain pieces of advice are suitable for different types of players.

[Satan n stuff]

YueFei, on 09 February 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

I disagree. Let's say you have an 60% accuracy with pin-point weapons against Light mechs. Why would you bother with sand-papering weapons like LB or streaks? Even with perfect accuracy with LB you are sanding off armor all over the Light mech. Landing 2 hits with pin-point weapons is worth more than landing 7 or 8 shots of LB-10X. LB-10X simply doesn't frighten me in my Jenner. It's not that it won't eventually kill me, but it takes time to do so, and I have time to react, re-assess the situation, disengage, etc. With pin-point weapons, I go from healthy to potentially dying on the next shot my enemy takes.

I think you might have misunderstood my post, I didn't actually mean streaks and the LB 10-X are more powerful, I was talking about them being more consistent.
With the LB 10-X and streak SRMs and half decent aim you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, but you'll deal less focused damage, so they're very consistent, but they won't kill very fast. A 60% hitrate with an AC/20 still means you miss 40% of your shots, so it's less consistent, but if you hit it will hurt. Consistent performance has very little to do with the actual power of the weapon and which weapon will actually deal more damage does depend on your accuracy. If you're very accurate, pinpoint weapons are clearly superior, if you're not, use streaks, lasers or an LB 10-X.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 09 February 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[YueFei]

Satan n stuff, on 09 February 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

I think you might have misunderstood my post, I didn't actually mean streaks and the LB 10-X are more powerful, I was talking about them being more consistent.
With the LB 10-X and streak SRMs and half decent aim you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, but you'll deal less focused damage, so they're very consistent, but they won't kill very fast. A 60% hitrate with an AC/20 still means you miss 40% of your shots, so it's less consistent, but if you hit it will hurt. Consistent performance has very little to do with the actual power of the weapon and which weapon will actually deal more damage does depend on your accuracy. If you're very accurate, pinpoint weapons are clearly superior, if you're not, use streaks, lasers or an LB 10-X.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Some people berate others for giving out advice, saying it's bad advice, but maybe we should all take a step back and realize that some advice works for some people, but not others.

I still remember how stupid I felt when a Raven was circling my teammate, and I was about 150 meters away, on what should be an easy shot for me. And then with my teammate counting on me to nail that Raven, I missed several shots with my HBK's AC/20.

[Nryrony]

As stated before, the Firestarter is basically a Jenner with a better loadout and hitbox.

For me as a primary F pilot, the Jenner hitbox is aside from the lack of ecm the main issue. Even if you have experience avoiding fire, a simple reflex shot will usually hit your ct, which basically makes you a free kill. Because of its size and shape, Jenner is the only light where I would mainly focus on the CT rather then its leggs.

Here the Firestarter truly shines, and with up to 8 energy hardpoints it has the fire power to be a better replacement for the F or a superior duelist (small/small pulse lasers).

The only real downside is its lack of ECM...

Edited by Nryrony, 09 February 2014 - 11:18 PM.

[Magna Canus]

I have had several drops with and against this mech now and can say that it is a little monster, but one that can be killed if you use the correct tactics (like any mech).

Most often the legs come off first (mostly to laser fire), though a few times I have lost arms first. I don't see much of an issue with the hit boxes so far.

The situation with the 3LPL above tends to be typical in the moment when firing large groups of similar weapons. Try chain-firing the LPLs and see if you get better results. I have had the feeling that hit detection gets "confused" when you alpha 2+ of the same weapon.

One really big advantage of this mech are the MGs: if your mech is close to overheating you can stop firing MLs for a bit and "just" use your MGs until you have cooled sufficiently.

The limited pitch is also not an issue if you concentrate on legs close in, or use your JJs to get the needed height to reach CT/RT/LT. A few steps back with also do the trick, but dont press your luck.

Another advantage are the hitboxes, though not because they are broken like those of the spider, but because they are more "balanced" than the "ugly duckling" (aka Jenner). The jenner is mainly legs and CT with stubby little arms that rarely get hit. This pretty much reduces the amount of damage you can spread across your mech. The Ember can use their arms as shields if need be.

My Jenner D seems to be a nice counter to the Ember when running 4ML+2SSRM. Those streaks are really nice for those wild, jumpy dog fights.

Whatever you do, dont run from an Ember. Once they are in your back with those 4ML and 4MG you are pretty much lost unless one of your team can take them down. Last night my buddy and I were getting 2-3 kills regularly, with spikes of up to 5 & 6 kills. I even managed to do 1063 damage with an Ember by leg-humping AC40 Jagers and blasting the ammo in their legs.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

@ Topic

Streaks having near auto-aim, still benefiting from the Artemis bug AND dealing 2.5 damage per missile is bar none the most reliable way to deal with lights, regardless of a player's individual skill level.

And LBX is straight up a terrible weapon. There are just better alternatives to this weapon in all uses. Even an AC5+SRM6 is a better alternative (should the hardpoints be available).

But, yet the best way to kill a light mech is good aim, and a direct fire alpha strike. One clean shot from say an AC40 jager, or Cataphract will do you in, instantly. But that requires a bit of aim and skill -- something I know most the average player cannot simply do. Use streaks, instead. They aim for you, afterall.

[wanderer]

Alternatively, just set a few medium lasers to chainfire and just keep a beam playing on the target. If he gives you a good shot? Tap-tap-tap all of em at once and/or pump a big gun into it.

I find most lights hate seeing you constantly burning away armor, especially since the beam makes it easier to adjust your aim. I'd -kill- for an option to always-on TAG designators.

[Wispsy]

wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Alternatively, just set a few medium lasers to chainfire and just keep a beam playing on the target. If he gives you a good shot? Tap-tap-tap all of em at once and/or pump a big gun into it.

I find most lights hate seeing you constantly burning away armor, especially since the beam makes it easier to adjust your aim. I'd -kill- for an option to always-on TAG designators.

That also leaves you staring right at them for their return alpha as they then quickly go back to twisting all of your damage away...

[wanderer]

Quote

That also leaves you staring right at them for their return alpha as they then quickly go back to twisting all of your damage away...

Funny thing, that. That light circle-of-deathing me can't twist it's inside leg away,and that's what I'm aiming for. Bonus: Most light pilots don't like twisting into a constant stream of damage, which tends to throw their aim off to begin with. Yes, I know you're not most light pilots, but do YOU think it's aces when your leg's critical?

A legged light is a dead light. Anything up top is going to spread laser damage around, because movement + twist. I get more scouts off my 'Mech by melting leg armor off than anything else, and I wince every time someone sprays lasers all over the upper body while the scout just scours armor off in chunks. He's not scattering damage if you give him a predictable cooldown for most of your weapons, anyway.

[Wispsy]

wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Funny thing, that. That light circle-of-deathing me can't twist it's inside leg away,and that's what I'm aiming for. Bonus: Most light pilots don't like twisting into a constant stream of damage, which tends to throw their aim off to begin with. Yes, I know you're not most light pilots, but do YOU think it's aces when your leg's critical?

A legged light is a dead light. Anything up top is going to spread laser damage around, because movement + twist. I get more scouts off my 'Mech by melting leg armor off than anything else, and I wince every time someone sprays lasers all over the upper body while the scout just scours armor off in chunks. He's not scattering damage if you give him a predictable cooldown for most of your weapons, anyway.

You can swap legs and make them miss a lot of damage by small jumps to turn legs quickly, this means that they will have to pretty much kill both legs plus a lot of ground and torso to leg you. Chainfiring will mean you are doing less DPS overall and their alphas should put a higher % of damage on target, especially if they are just staring at you firing a single laser at a time. Also if the light in question is a Jenner aiming for the ct is generally the quickest and easiest way to kill them, every other light and medium except hunchback should be legged anyway.

[YueFei]

wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Funny thing, that. That light circle-of-deathing me can't twist it's inside leg away,and that's what I'm aiming for. Bonus: Most light pilots don't like twisting into a constant stream of damage, which tends to throw their aim off to begin with. Yes, I know you're not most light pilots, but do YOU think it's aces when your leg's critical?

A legged light is a dead light. Anything up top is going to spread laser damage around, because movement + twist. I get more scouts off my 'Mech by melting leg armor off than anything else, and I wince every time someone sprays lasers all over the upper body while the scout just scours armor off in chunks. He's not scattering damage if you give him a predictable cooldown for most of your weapons, anyway.

A lot of the really good light mech pilots don't circle-of-death. They fire from cover, and dive back into cover, exposing themselves for only 1 or 2 seconds. In a situation like that, chain-firing robs you of the potential to retaliate with significant damage.

I agree that aiming for legs is near universally good against Light mechs, but I don't agree with chain-firing your lasers at him.

[AC]

My issue with some of the light mechs is that PGI gives them the wrong movement category, which makes them uber manouverable, when they shouldn't be.

The spider has a "Tiny" movement type, where it should have a "Light" movement type. Tiny should be reserved for actual tiny mechs like the Locust...and maybe the Commando. 30 ton mechs with enough armor to shrug off a gauss slug, does not need a Tiny movement type.

[Fate 6]

Wispsy, on 05 February 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

Misery best Stalker, best Victor is either the DS (hero) or K, Ember best light.

Step by step we edge closer to p2w as PGI focuses all their efforts on making quick and easy money. That being said they better not nerf my Ember unless they are going to give me a refund I got conned badly enough with the Talon package! >.<

Ilya was the best CTF when it was released (JJs and movement have changed to make the 3D better in most cases now). Grid Iron is arguably the best HBK because of quirks and the option for a missile if you want it. YLW is currently the best Cent. Firebrand is the best Jager.

Some hero mechs aren't the best, but they are always better than at least half the variants of the mech

[Adiuvo]

AC, on 10 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

My issue with some of the light mechs is that PGI gives them the wrong movement category, which makes them uber manouverable, when they shouldn't be.

The spider has a "Tiny" movement type, where it should have a "Light" movement type. Tiny should be reserved for actual tiny mechs like the Locust...and maybe the Commando. 30 ton mechs with enough armor to shrug off a gauss slug, does not need a Tiny movement type.

Nerfing already weak chassis isn't going to make even weaker mechs stronger. It just lessens the viability of whatever you nerfed.