183 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

Khobai, on 10 February 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

Its not pay to win.

But it is unbalanced because its better than the other light mechs.

Its better then other lights.
You can only buy it with real money.

Thats a clear p2w.

But no problem for the game, nothing changes here, there is nothing to see then a ilja and misery allready dancing on that border and an oxide and x5 trying to cross it ...

They broke their promises about cosmetic items only long time ago.

We can be glad that our mechs dont need 24 real time hours to repair without premiumtime.

Edited by Galenit, 11 February 2014 - 02:56 AM.

[Nryrony]

Wispsy, on 11 February 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

How so? You can do some pointless things like put on 8x1ton weapons with no heatsinks

(for the matter of overview i shortened this quote, feel free to scroll)

Granted I do have my quirks, but I think a lot of people overestimate the power of 4 mgs.

They are nice to have but nothing too fancy unless you play 3025.

Aside from their low dps, they force you into close range, are less useful for a hit and run strike, require you to stay on target and usually spread the dmg - if you hit.

Not to mention that due to their slow bullet speed you will need to lead shots which you cannot do if you fire lasers.

Its nice that they receive +dmg(crit) vs unarmored parts, but that's nothig i can't do with lasers from 270m too.


On the matter of chassis, we got a firestarter with 6 energy 2 ballistics, I guess that might be the most interesting one for me (personal taste) if i manage to put 6 med lasers and 2 mgs into with without too many drawbacks. However the firestarter chassis with just 6 med laser would be fine for me. (something like this for example http://mwo.smurfy-ne...824596716679465)

The other variants are interesting to. 8 small lasers are interesting for solo light duels. Dual ams will cripple those streak boats, especially if you pack. And the ability to place 4 lasers into your torso would make you less dependent on your arms.

Wispsy, on 11 February 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

I reckon you think LBX is a strong weapon as well right?

Concerning the LBX matter, I haven't tested it enough to build an opinion, however they actually don't spread that much (as many people seem to think) and are a little bit cooler. But I wouldn't describe it as a scout hunter... if at I would tend to use it vs assaults.

Best Scoukiller in my Op is still dual Gauss/AC 20

Edited by Nryrony, 11 February 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Artgathan]

Nryrony, on 11 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Not to mention that due to thier slow bullet speed you will need to lead shots which you cannot do if you fire lasers.

MGs actually hit instantly (like a laser). Their animation would suggest otherwise, but the animation is a lie!

[Dracol]

Galenit, on 11 February 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Its better then other lights.
You can only buy it with real money.

Thats a clear p2w.

You can only play the firestarter early by paying cash. Early access to new items via cash has become a great way for a f2p game to generate cash.

Dont want to spend money? no worries, you can pick it up with in game cash in a week.
Dont want to be the last kid on the block to have the new toy? Open your wallet and drop some cash.
Dont have disposable income for new mech? Get some patience and pick it up in a week.

Early Access Does NOT equal p2w

Early Access might equal annoyance to the free players with little patience

Edited by Dracol, 11 February 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[Denolven]

Nryrony, on 11 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Not to mention that due to their slow bullet speed you will need to lead shots which you cannot do if you fire lasers.

As far as I know, MGs are direct hit weapons like flamers and lasers.

In general the MGs are an OK weapon, if played as secondary weapon system. Use something big to rip off the armor, then put additional zero heat pressure on him by adding MG fire while bridging main weapon cooldown.
As a primary weapon system, MGs are basically useless, because there is zero threat in them. A player slot that can never be a threat to the opponent is a wasted slot.

The Ember in stock loadout is probably the biggest trolling mech I've seen in a while .
Actually, it's the only light mech that can play MGs properly, because it has 4 energy hardpoints for primary weaponry.

So yeah, I don't think it will be op. It's only the usual whining that happens with a new piece that people don't know how to handle yet. Give it a month and nobody will care anymore.

Edited by Denolven, 11 February 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Wispsy]

Mgs work like lasers (including maximum range) and cause no heat. No heat, for 4 weapons, this is a big deal. Not only that but they do even more damage on your highest priority targets, those that are hurt. I do not know how else to explain this...free constant damage at higher DPS causing no heat...to make an issue of range complaints (and to be honest you are not much less likely to get shot at 270m and 120m unless you are playing a very specific hide and seek against an enemy who is not all too familiar with the map) and then suggest 8small lasers is just...The 2nd main reason for losing in a Jenner (other then having a massive ct which acts like a magnet) is that when 2 teams literally throw themselves at each other in the main push your damage drops down to barely anything as you constantly wait on the heat bar, this also happens very quickly with the 5ml Jenner which is why it is not worth dropping the extra ml. With 4ml 4mgs you get an acceptable alpha, a considerable amount of killing potential and constant damage that you can maintain throughout the entire fight. Instead of dropping on Terra Therma and getting 2 shots then sitting behind a rock going "I do hope you guys live long enough for my next alpha to hopefully kill a cored target as they push on us massively" you can just go and kill them without worrying about heat knowing that they will likely be focused on bigger targets and if they are not you are durable enough to survive and get out and be ready to go back in for the assassination the moment somebody else gets exposed. Not only is this mech better in the push but it is also much better at small group fights. It survives longer and you do not spend so much time running around going "wish I could afford to shoot that exposed leg/ct there without overheating". It however is not a sniper. If you wish to sniper though you might as well go 3L instead of Jenner. If you think adding 2ml for a little extra alpha and a load of extra heat is worth losing the constant DPS and killing potential of 4mgs you are crazy. :/ Hit and run tactics are great but you will do more damage with a hit and run into somebodies back with an Ember then you will with a Jenner, unless they have over 20 points of back armour at which point you probably do not need to run. If you are against a good team that has a shred of accuracy then hit and run is not such an effective tactic as you are very likely to get shot and it is best to make yourself as useful as possible in the push (from whichever side it comes) just like everybody else who is not a sniper.

[Gladewolf]

Adiuvo, on 10 February 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

No, I don't agree. I don't think that having horizontal arm movement is so difficult as to be impossible to account for. It might be more difficult for new players, but when talking about the validity of a chassis, competitive or otherwise, the feelings of a new or unskilled player mean absolutely jack.

Let me try another way...you aren't going to focus fire my Jenner with articulated arm and torso mounts....I AM going to focus fire 6 medium lasers, which is also near the upper limit of what the heat threshold with allow. I mention jumping specifically because that SHOULD be an obvious situation in which your reticles do not align..

[wanderer]

Quote

Let me try another way...you aren't going to focus fire my Jenner with articulated arm and torso mounts

I'll take "What is arm lock good for?" for $200, Alex.

[Charons Little Helper]

Wispsy, on 11 February 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Mgs work like ... not a sniper.

WALL OF TEXT - CANNOT READ! (sorry - I have no idea how good or bad your post's content was - but I simply couldn't read it)

[Nryrony]

Wispsy, on 11 February 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Mgs work like lasers (including maximum range) and cause no heat. No heat, for 4 weapons, ...

For the matter of overview (and sanity) I shortened your post.

Basically I don't disagree, I'm just a different kind of player. I back stab, I like my high alphas(focused burst), and I like my 270m range.

Ofc a 6med build is a hot one, but it also has its advantages, especially for backstabbing or backstabbing with a pack. Even for Jenner vs Jenner duels I prefer them as well. Because I can "use" my heat cap faster, and therefore have more time where I can try to avoid fire, while i'm not forced to stay very close. The key is to know when to alpha and when not, both in therms of aiming as well as heat.

4 "free" MGs are "nice to have", they are a nice backup weapon (if you are too hot) as well as a good boost vs damaged mechs.

But I don't see any major advantage, especially due to its range and constant dmg vs burst dmg. However I also don't say its a horrible one, just that it's not of my personal *taste/play stile*.

Artgathan, on 11 February 2014 - 03:36 AM, said:

MGs actually hit instantly (like a laser). Their animation would suggest otherwise, but the animation is a lie!

I apparently didn't know, apologies - have to test it

And Thanks for the info

***
I'm in the process of testing it, what I found out so far is that mgs defiantly spread bullets, its not an "animation error". So their accuracy lacks precision.

*** Not come up with a solid testing method for what you claim, but since the bullets spread I doubt that they work "as lasers" (in the matter of leading shots).

Edited by Nryrony, 11 February 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Drehl]

I have to agree with wispsy in this.

8ml (alpha) may sound terrifiing but it's also highly situational. sure it'll be nice to deliver such a big punch in the back of an unaware assault... but it's also hot as ****. even without ghostheat. so you won't be able to use them all the time. even the 5-6ml jenner needs it's firebreaks to cool down.. the 8ml fst will need them even more.
so you'll end up using 5-6mls most of the time. imo that's not worth the additional heat and weight of 2-3ml you're barely using

the mgs on the other hand can be used while cooling down to do some sustained dps. and imo that's really great when figthing other non-streak lights (spider I'm looking at you!) and while in a big brawl.

[Artgathan]

Nryrony, on 11 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

I apparently didn't know, apologies - have to test it

And Thanks for the info

***
I'm in the process of testing it, what I found out so far is that mgs defiantly spread bullets, its not an "animation error". So their accuracy lacks precision.

*** Not come up with a solid testing method for what you claim, but since the bullets spread I doubt that they work "as lasers" (in the matter of leading shots).

Oh they definitely spread damage - they have a CoF. I just meant that they strike targets instantly. The animation gives them the appearance of having a travel time to target, but this is not the case - they hit the target as soon as you pull the trigger (like a laser does).

To test what I'm suggesting, just try to lead a moving target with MG's. You'll notice a distinct lack of hits. (This contributes to a lot of new-player rage).

[Gladewolf]

wanderer, on 11 February 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'll take "What is arm lock good for?" for $200, Alex.

It is good for firing all of your weapons at the same point within the limits of the characteristics of ones torso...a WEAKNESS the Jenner does not possess. Thanks for the $200.

[Mister Blastman]

lsp, on 10 February 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

The k is the worst VTR in the game lol. The best cbill is the 9S, than DS.

Umm. The 9K is beyond solid.

[Gladewolf]

Wispsy, on 11 February 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Mgs work like lasers (including maximum range) and cause no heat. No heat, for 4 weapons, this is a big deal. Not only that but they do even more damage on your highest priority targets, those that are hurt. + Plus more well thought out stuff, reduced for space

The Ember does have better constant DPS....but wouldn't you consider that situational? I use hit and run to avoid getting vaporized....but it also gives me time to cool off....

[Nryrony]

Drehl, on 11 February 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I have to agree with wispsy in this.

8ml (alpha) may sound terrifiing but it's also highly situational. ...

Why would anyone do an 8ml build? not even I'm that disturbed.

However you can still pull of an 8 light laser or light pulse laser build, and both of them with decent heat management. (and no ghost heat at all)

Though, small (pulse) lasers are not my personal preference, they posses a big threat for any light. That's 24 *pinpoint* dmg with a "burn time" of just 0.5 / 0.75 and a relatively high rate of fire. Pretty neat for focusing down legs.

However, small lasers are very "special" weapons and you will run into problems with them, mostly due to their very limited range.

But still, this can be a very threatening build.

Edited by Nryrony, 11 February 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Gladewolf, on 11 February 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Let me try another way...you aren't going to focus fire my Jenner with articulated arm and torso mounts....I AM going to focus fire 6 medium lasers, which is also near the upper limit of what the heat threshold with allow. I mention jumping specifically because that SHOULD be an obvious situation in which your reticles do not align..

Why wouldn't I be hitting my targets with both arms and torso weapons? It's a light mech. It doesn't have Atlas-tier levels of torso twist. Any situation where the Jenner can hit with its weapons the Firestarter can as well, since they have the same torso twist rates. This however, doesn't apply in reverse because, due to the arms, the Firestarter can fire further behind itself than the Jenner can.

When using JJs you'll still be able to hit people with your arm mounted weapons - 4 medium lasers. You may or may not be able to hit them with the MGs, depending on the pitch angle. Whatever the case is the difference between 4 MLs and 6 MLs is miniscule considering how rare those situations are. You shouldn't be flying through the air constantly as a light mech. Holding down spacebar is something bad light pilots do and in games with competent snipers they are punished for it appropriately.

Gladewolf, on 11 February 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

The Ember does have better constant DPS....but wouldn't you consider that situational? I use hit and run to avoid getting vaporized....but it also gives me time to cool off....

It's not really situational, since there is always a big push at the end. It's a matter of early game vs. late game. The Jenner does have better poke (early game) since the lasers have a longer range than the machine guns, and the Jenner mounts 2 more lasers vs. the Ember. Late game however the Ember gives constant DPS where the Jenner doesn't, and it's here where a light mech is generally able to make the most difference in a fight.

[Khobai]

Quote

Its better then other lights.
You can only buy it with real money.

Thats a clear p2w.

Since the other firestarters are nearly as good and will be available for cbills its not clear p2w .

But PGI does need to give them way less modules than the other lights at the very least.

[Satan n stuff]

Gladewolf, on 11 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

It is good for firing all of your weapons at the same point within the limits of the characteristics of ones torso...a WEAKNESS the Jenner does not possess. Thanks for the $200.

You mean you haven't figured out how to turn arm lock on or off while playing?

[Nryrony]

Satan n stuff, on 11 February 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You mean you haven't figured out how to turn arm lock on or off while playing?

I think he means something different...

Though the Ember has mobile arms but its torso is more limited. The Jenner (F) can still fire all its weapons within a 144° arc. In addition it is capable (thanks to hits horizontal arm movement) to fire all guns straight down or up. The Ember, or any other Firestarter chassis is not capable of doing this with its torso mounted weapons.

for reference please compare both chassis.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...o-arm-twist.png

This is something you can even notice inside a Spider, however this is minor and usually just annoys primary jenner pilots...

Adiuvo, on 11 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

... Any situation where the Jenner can hit with its weapons the Firestarter can as well, ...

Same goes for this, its not all about rates its also about degrees.

To put the cherry on top, the Jenners twist rates _can_ actually be faster since its engine rating has a max of 300 instead of 295.

Edited by Nryrony, 11 February 2014 - 12:32 PM.