1026 replies to this topic

[stkxie]

In the state the game is right now there are 2 superior mechs, Highlander 733C followed by Dragon Slayer. The reason why those two mech outperform everything else in game is convergence. I run PPC&UAC combo and those weapons are mounted on the same side of the mech. When I shoot, all of my weapon systems use the same trajectory, thus providing the pilot with less things to pay attention to and SIGNIFICANTLY higher accuracy.

[MavRCK]

Haree78, on 05 February 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

I'm the best Highlander pilot in game.

My feelings after I read this was that I really hope you identify WHY the HGN is so overpowered. The easiest way is to speak to your best players, which you aren't doing, because you haven't spoken to me.
If you don't identify the issue and just do a chassis specific nerf all you have done is made it so the Dragon Slayer is now the best mech by far.

There are 4 issues that make this mech overpowered:
jump jets
jump jets
hard point locations
jump jets

Easiest fix, either up the heat on JJs to be much more significant or nerf the 1 JJ is all I need issue, make the scaling of extra JJs much more important.

I wish they would speak to you and SJR. They certainly didn't speak to KaoS when we told them POINT BLANK that the highlander PPC meta was going to eliminate brawling.

In case people forgot, subsequent to the release of the highlander, SRMs were nerfed - which completely eliminated brawling beyond what we could have anticipated.

I almost feel there is a pathological passive-aggressive approach to balancing the game and ignoring the best players and groups in MWO - those who truly care and have expertise that can help this game: it's really twisted and bizarre - it's stuff I've only seen in my professional practice but I can't help but wonder if this is the approach being taken by some individuals at PGI.

Edited by MavRCK, 05 February 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

FactorlanP, on 05 February 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

I really don't think that that is what he said... To me, it read more like, they are looking at jump jets too....

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Just going back to the good old days of poking the dragon and running away.

Yes... JJs are being looked at and specifically the initial burst turn. And there are other Mechs on the firing range.

Maybe you're reading it differently than I am. Here is what I got from it.

JJs are being examined.
Highlanders are not being singled out (like he said, other mechs are being looked at as well).

[Sandpit]

Helmer, on 05 February 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

have always thought that the hyper competitive teams are the best to take feedback from in terms of what's broken. They will always find the best loadouts. This is not to say the whole game should be based around the 1%ers, but definitely informed by. Just my .02 .

This is where I disagree. I think you can't balance things, especially weapons and builds, on the min/max section of the population. I think it gives you a good place to look when figuring out where to start but the min/max player will ALWAYS use coordination in the equation.
1 LRM 5 isn't much to be wary of
10 LRM 5's can make you run for cover
The average player isn't going to have a team full of mechs built to compliment one another in an entire team. When you look into the competitive section you see more teamwork and coordination than in the average match. That plays a LOT into how effective a weapon is.
Again, I think you can take cues from but not balance for that scenario. The balance should come from the majority portion of the population. Regardless of whether that's the competitive section, low end section, average section etc.

If you nerf a weapon based on what's happening in an extremely competitive 12man setting based on things like teamwork and coordination and number taken then you may "balance" it great for that section but the average and casual player gets a useless weapon because it was balanced against it being used with extreme teamwork and coordination

[Helmer]

RG Notch, on 05 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Apparently the intent of the post was to "poke the dragon" and provide vague hint that something is going to happen to JJs maybe and perhaps Highlanders. I'm against poking the dragon and against vague info from the devs. I would be for clear info so that an intelligent discussion could be had, by those that are interested, not the folks looking to compare e peens and troll people. As usual with PGI you reap what you sow. The dragon can poke back and some folks are just looking for any reason to fight over nonsense. If you want feedback tell us what you want feedback about and put it in the first post.

It was to let individuals know that a change was coming for the Highlander. Discussion can revolve around that, not slandering, and name calling. Theory crafting behind what the changes will be are fine, insults are not.

Cheers.

[Sandpit]

stkxie, on 05 February 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

In the state the game is right now there are 2 superior mechs, Highlander 733C followed by Dragon Slayer. The reason why those two mech outperform everything else in game is convergence. I run PPC&UAC combo and those weapons are mounted on the same side of the mech. When I shoot, all of my weapon systems use the same trajectory, thus providing the pilot with less things to pay attention to and SIGNIFICANTLY higher accuracy.

My Stalker and Bmaster take offense to that

[Rebas Kradd]

Although nerfs should be used sparingly, I support the idea of nerfs in this case because I feel the damage output in this game is too high. 12v12 big stompy robots = big swings of dominance early in the match and little chance to get into smaller skirmishes involving maneuvering and range management. It's all just a fustercluck, whomever gets the first two kills will usually win the match.

HOWEVER, I agree that fixing SRMs has the potential to improve balance all on its own, and I think that should be done before addressing any nerfs.

Would simply like to see JJs generate way more heat and fall damage than they do. That nerfs multiple metamechs across the board.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 05 February 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Helmer, on 05 February 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

It was to let individuals know that a change was coming for the Highlander. Discussion can revolve around that, not slandering, and name calling. Theory crafting behind what the changes will be are fine, insults are not.

Cheers.

They still playing bad hard rock bands at the Soho on north side of town Helmer?

[GrimlockONE]

The main problem revolving around MWO is the presence of two groups. We have both those that play for fun, generally table top purist, and those that play for competition, the group constantly pushing meta. Separate these two groups and give two ques, stock and unlimited. If you want to play with fully customized mechs then you should expect to see those using everything from LRM boats to PPC/UAC5, whatever combo you like, mechs.

[JDH4mm3r]

Well.... all i can say is...

Failing as intended™ is the new Working as Intended™ motto for MWO.

I really don't know where your vision is at Paul. It's clearly not listening to the consumers and what not.

SMH....gg close.

[BIix]

kaffeangst, on 05 February 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I am the best Highlander pilot in the game, and I say - go ahead, nerf away. The people who rely on that specific chassis to be even slightly above-average will fall, not the naturally skilled. Brawling is more fun, anyhow.

Fix SRM's before adjusting... I agree with this notion.

LORD KAFFEANGST
ggclose™

[Lukoi Banacek]

GrimlockONE, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

The main problem revolving around MWO is the presence of two groups. We have both those that play for fun, generally table top bpurist, and those that play for competition, the group constantly pushing meta. Separate these two groups and give two ques, stock and unlimited. If you want to play with fully customized mechs then you should expect to see those using everything from LRM boats to PPC/UAC5, whatever combo you like, mechs.

I play for fun and Im not a table top purist. This is oversimplification.

I agree that competitive types trend towards most optimal builds, but I would note that optimal builds in concert with teamwork/coordination and balance do not have to be mutually exclusive concepts.

You can have fun, be competitive and all the while be playing a balanced game.

Edited by Lukoi, 05 February 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Why the highlander specifically? This way the meta can shift to jump sniping victors & shadowhawks instead?

[YueFei]

You can't fix problems without addressing the issues with the foundation.

First point: JJ-capable mechs vs non-JJ-capable mechs. Those with JJ can make rapid use of cover, regardless of weight class, because the initial thrust from JJ is so strong. Most Mechs without JJ *cannot* make rapid use of cover. Their acceleration on the ground is less than the vertical acceleration a JJ-capable mech has, so in order to clear their weapons to fire from cover they must expose themselves longer. The hill-climbing nerf only compounds this problem.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with making rapid use of cover, a brief exposure to shoot and then take cover again.

Second Point: instant pin-point convergence. It's not a matter of weaponry being overpowered. Nobody complains about a single PPC being too devastating. Nobody complains about a single AC20 being too much to take. It's the way you can get an entire stack of weaponry to strike the same spot, which breaks TT's damage/armor model, that is killing mechs dead fast. If the question is a matter of risk/reward, then the greater the risk, the greater the reward. If you only expose yourself for a brief period of time, how much damage output potential should you be capable of? Homeless Bill's solution would've resolved this neatly: you can still fire everything, but without pin-point convergence. Or you can fire smaller groupings of weaponry, spaced out over time, with pinpoint convergence. Risk vs Reward.

On the other hand, if we're happy that someone can dish out 30+ pin-point damage instantaneously, then instead of nerfing JJ-capable mechs, we should buff the non-JJ capable mechs with superior acceleration/deceleration and turn rate. Let JJ-capable mechs be superior at using cover vertically. The non-JJ-capable mechs would be superior at using cover horizontally, and be more maneuverable at turns on the ground.

Edited by YueFei, 05 February 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

GrimlockONE, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

The main problem revolving around MWO is the presence of two groups. We have both those that play for fun, generally table top purist, and those that play for competition, the group constantly pushing meta. Separate these two groups and give two ques, stock and unlimited. If you want to play with fully customized mechs then you should expect to see those using everything from LRM boats to PPC/UAC5, whatever combo you like, mechs.

They did separate those queues. That's why we have 12 mans

[kaffeangst]

Please... Gut isn't even the best Highlander pilot on SJR. Haree himself said it himself earlier in this thread that he's the best. personally I'd say Jager is. You fellows sure are confused over there ; )

[Koniving]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

Just a random thought if it ever comes across your mind.
There's something that had been brought to my attention. The mechs of each weight class in MWO universally have the same structure and armor values as their set (Structure) and maximum (Armor). But, coming to the mechs themselves I see structure is universal for the same weight class. Yet armor is not. I find this is with good reason, too.

For an example of what I'm talking about, the Jenner D and Locust and Cicada start with 128 armor, yet Locust can only apply 10 more, Jenner D can apply over a hundred more, and the Cicada well beyond that.

What if armor was based per variant, with a preset number above stock. Say 100 for example.
Said example mechs start 128 armor, but max at 228 armor. Each mech with their current structure values (Locust: 61, Jenner 119, Cicada 137.)

Now take the Raven for example. 3-L only starts with 161. The slower and inferior 2X starts with 208. The Raven 4X starts with 234. Currently they can all equip 238 armor. But after this simple change, their "nature" is preserved with 3-L having 261 max, 2X having 308 max, and 4X having 334 max, all with 119 as their structure value.

Shadowhawk obsoleting Hunchback; issue fixed. 2 versions of the Shadowhawk start with less armor. Shadowhawk returns to its intended role as long range mech. The Hunchback with this change maintains dominance in both the 50 ton weight class and over certain 55 ton mechs to include 2 out of 3 Shadowhawks, certain Griffins and certain Kintaros in armor superiority. This comes at the cost of being as slow as an assault mech. It's a unique, identifying trait. One that is lost, when "armor equality" comes into play in MWO.

Overall, the armor is an identifying factor that really differentiates mechs and explains away their traits. Awesomes inherit superior armor to Victors while Victors can wield much better weapons. But if Victors can equip that same armor then the Awesome loses his identity.

I can hash this out in more detail if requested. But the simplified version is keep all structure levels as is. Take stock armor per variant + Value = variant's new max armor. (Please do not use a percentage; it creates exponential problems).

Edited by Koniving, 05 February 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Glory in the Highest]

kaffeangst, on 05 February 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Please... Gut isn't even the best Highlander pilot on SJR. Haree himself said it himself earlier in this thread that he's the best. personally I'd say Jager is. You fellows sure are confused over there ; )

The truth is I'm the best Highlander pilot of all time.

[Siriothrax]

kaffeangst, on 05 February 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Please... Gut isn't even the best Highlander pilot on SJR. Haree himself said it himself earlier in this thread that he's the best. personally I'd say Jager is. You fellows sure are confused over there ; )

What are you talking about? Pepe is the best Highlander pilot in SJR.

[BIix]

Siriothrax, on 05 February 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

What are you talking about? Pepe is the best Highlander pilot in SJR.

DO A BARREL ROLL!

Edited by BIix, 05 February 2014 - 07:33 PM.