1026 replies to this topic

[Sam Slade]

Villz, on 12 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Assuming that i want anything from anyone in this community....

oh but you do... you want our validation so bad it hurts... you want it deep down in the pit of your belly where your shame at being 'just some guy on the internet' battles your suspension of disbelief. The speed and violence of the Lord Sensative-Little-Snowflake Clubs response to my crass criticism of your elite skills makes it terribly obvious.

Again on a serious note, look at the jumpjets not the mechs themselves: what did people poptart in before the Highlander?

Edited by Sam Slade, 12 February 2014 - 10:38 PM.

[Lyzveeyeh]

Most of you have hit the nail on the head, It's JJ and not the Highlander.

So, I just put a topic in gameplay balance about how there's nothing wrong with the Highlander (I don't own one so I can't be that biased), the problem is with the implementation of jump jets at the moment. The initial impulse is way too high. Other than that, it has a ton of missile tubes compared to mechs around it, that's all that sets it apart. The system for aiming is actually good, your aim should settle once you've cut the thrusters. The real problem lies in how easy it is to aim considering the size of the mechs in question. I really thing everything in the game should be slowed by about 30%, which would annoy the twitch gamer kiddies, but give everything a more realistic feel. Right now the physics are ridiculous. It shouldn't be that the tiny mech is hard to hit b/c he's moving quickly, it should be that he's moving too quickly for a larger mech to track. I also hate lights though, their armor is too effective for the surface area represented (armor value vs depicted area). So, small mechs are too small and all mechs are too fast and the jump jet physics are a little ridiculous. I go into it more in that other thread.

Edited by Lyzveeyeh, 12 February 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Nuclear Weapon]

Sam Slade, on 12 February 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

oh but you do... you want our validation so bad it hurts... you want it deep down in the pit of your belly where your shame at being 'just some guy on the internet' battles your suspension of disbelief. The speed and violence of the Lord Sensative-Little-Snowflake Clubs response to my crass criticism of your elite skills makes it terribly obvious.

Again on a serious note, look at the jumpjets not the mechs themselves: what did people poptart in before the Highlander?

On a serious note:
Stop it... Just stop it...
Stop posting.


On a FAR LESS serious note:
We poptart with everything that jumps FFS -.-" what kind of Q is that?

Stop it -.-"

[MustrumRidcully]

Villz, on 12 February 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

How is ever hitting what u aimed @ a bad thing?

Hitting where you aim is not the issue.

The issue is having it easier to deliver all your damage to one spot (in a game where dealing your damage to specific spots on the enemy is important) be easier with some weapons than other.


What requires more skill?*
1. Delivering 5 damage to a spot by holding the beam for 1.0 seconds on a potentially moving and torso twisting target while you move yourself.
2. Delivering 5 damage to a spot by estimating lead for a single shot on a moving and torso twisting target while you move yourself
=> That's the Ballistik/PPC advantage over Lasers

Then scale this up:
Is it easier to do 1 and 2 after each other over a limited time frame (weapon cycle times), or doing either either 1 or 2 twice simultenously.
=> This is the advantag of boating

*If you're unsure about it, and you're someone with access to such data, you could check weapon statistics. For yourself, you can open your mwomercs.com/profile/stats and figure out - for every shot fired, how much damage of the damage you could have potentially dealt do you actually inflict on a target? Particularly focus on weapons with similar range or similar rate of fire, since of course the farther away the target, the more impact error has, and it is not unlikely your precision goes down with range, and the more often you have to shoot, the less you can focus on aiming each individual shot.

[smokefield]

pgi needs to add recoil to projectile weapons, including ppc. more when flying, less when on the ground. That will fix poptarting. much easier tha a lot of suggestions around here.

[Sam Slade]

Nuclear Weapon, on 13 February 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

On a serious note:
Stop it... Just stop it...
Stop posting.


On a FAR LESS serious note:
We poptart with everything that jumps FFS -.-" what kind of Q is that?

Stop it -.-"

It's a rhetorical question, genius. Maybe best if you leave the responses to one of your more literate 'snowflake lords'. Also way to bury a thread is 'leet trolls' nonsense. Ti

Edited by Sam Slade, 13 February 2014 - 02:13 AM.

[Ryan Steel]

[IceSerpent]

smokefield, on 13 February 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

pgi needs to add recoil to projectile weapons, including ppc. more when flying, less when on the ground. That will fix poptarting. much easier tha a lot of suggestions around here.

As recoil happens after you fire the weapon, it won't affect alpha striking in any way. Neither in the air, nor on the ground. It only nerfs dakka-dakka builds.

[Gremlich Johns]

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

As recoil happens after you fire the weapon, it won't affect alpha striking in any way. Neither in the air, nor on the ground. It only nerfs dakka-dakka builds.

^^

(heya mate, how have you been?)

[Roland]

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

As recoil happens after you fire the weapon, it won't affect alpha striking in any way. Neither in the air, nor on the ground. It only nerfs dakka-dakka builds.

Yeah, in order for recoil to affect alpha striking, you'd want to set up a system like Chromehounds had, where all of the weapons in a group actually had a minute delay between their firing, and the recoil of each was applied prior to shooting the next one.

It was actually a really awesome system, because it was complex and yet totally predictable. Good players and mech designers could predict exactly what the shot pattern was going to be.

The result was some weapons spread, but in a way that did not involve any randomization.

[Mcgral18]

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

As recoil happens after you fire the weapon, it won't affect alpha striking in any way. Neither in the air, nor on the ground. It only nerfs dakka-dakka builds.

It could tie into HB's targeting computer overload. Fire more than X alpha and expect X cone of fire.

No way to avoid it except for staggered/chain fire. It doesn't punish alphas with heat, only accuracy.

It's one way to increase TTK, but of course there are many of those ideas.

[Lootee]

Roland, on 13 February 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yeah, in order for recoil to affect alpha striking, you'd want to set up a system like Chromehounds had, where all of the weapons in a group actually had a minute delay between their firing, and the recoil of each was applied prior to shooting the next one.

Or they could just go back to canon TT and make things the way they are supposed to be. There is a weapon in TT that does 25 points of pinpoint damage but the recoil is so massive that if fired while moving it had a chance of knocking the firing mech prone -> the Heavy Gauss Rifle.

If this game stays alive long enough for the Heavy Gauss Rifle to be introduced, it will almost certainly have that drawback. That was one of the balancing factors for being able to do such a large amount of damage to 1 location. So why in PGI universe would a Heavy Gauss Rifle that does a measly 25 points of pinpoint damage have a chance of knocking a mech flat on its back, but firing 35-40 pts worth of recoil producing weapons ALL AT THE SAME TIME have no chance whatsoever of this?

So simply add a chance for any alpha strike doing 25 or greater damage with heavy recoil producing weapons (PPCs, Gauss Rifles, Autocannons) to make a grounded mech fall prone facing a random direction, or a jumping mech crash land. Falling and crash landing should both inflict the tonnage appropriate damage to the legs, and in the case of jumping mechs multiplied by elevation.

Problem solved and it's 100% canon and IT WILL HAVE TO BE IMPLEMENTED ANYWAY WHEN HEAVY GAUSS RIFLES GET ADDED.

Poptarting would still be a viable tactic, but if you want the huge payoff (40 pts of pinpoint dmg) you also run the huge risk of crashing, or even worse crashing out in plain sight of the enemy. No play style is eliminated, you can still alpha strike, you can still fire while jumping, you can still hill hump, you can still brawl. But you'd have to be mindful of how much recoil your weapons generate and either fire low recoil lasers or only a few weapons on the move(or jumping), or stop moving to prevent your mech from being destabilized from the recoil.

In short: Moar skill and strategy involved and less derr hurr I can haz crosshair on enemy and roll face on mouse to hit them with 4 weapons instantly in the same spot.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 February 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Gremlich Johns, on 13 February 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

(heya mate, how have you been?)

Not too bad. What are you up to these days?

Mcgral18, on 13 February 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

It could tie into HB's targeting computer overload. Fire more than X alpha and expect X cone of fire.

No way to avoid it except for staggered/chain fire. It doesn't punish alphas with heat, only accuracy.

It's one way to increase TTK, but of course there are many of those ideas.

I am not so sure that alpha itself is a problem. Your suggestion would simply make it beneficial to pack fewer and bigger guns - when you have to chain fire everything twin AC20s would still be better than any combo of SRMs and MLs. It would make "shotgun" weapons somewhat better if they are not affected by cone of fire effect, but I think it's easier to simply increase overall damage for those weapons.

[SweetJackal]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 February 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

*snipped Gauss Talk*

One reason is that the Gauss weapons deal damage through pure kinetic force while Autocannons use explosive munitions and Energy Weapons use extreme heat.

Currently the weapon in the game that would produce the greatest amount of force pushed back against the mech that is firing would be the Gauss Rifle. The Heavy Gauss took that design and upscaled everything to the point that there was the risk that the force of the weapon firing from one location could overwhelm the Gyro.

[Devlin Stone]

I don't know how this needs to be said. I don't know what how to induce the magical thunderclap moment of perfect clarity to make PGI understand this -

Any Nerf. Any change. Any meta balancing act on 'Mechs or weapons in this game is an utterly pointless foot shuffling gesture until weapon convergence is properly implemented.

If you want to stop the pop-tarting meta, then have guns lock in their forward firing position on a 'Mech while it is airborne.

If you added a proper weapon convergence 'Mechanic, with convergence rates and profiles for weapons, then lowered the heat cap increased the heat dissipation rate. . . it would do wonders for this game.

Jump jets are not overpowered. They are under powered for their intended purpose of increasing mobility, especially on slower 'Mechs. The performance you get from adding more jets is poorly scaled. They give you no directional control, so there's no 'jumping backwards' over that friendly commando snuggling up behind your legs. You don't regenerate fuel while in the air so people end up getting lodged in the invisible geometry of each map. You magically lose a huge amount of momentum each time you jump, which is significantly worse for 'under engined' 'Mechs. . . and jump jets are slow. In the time it takes you to crawl up a shoulder-height hill with jump jets in an assault, an ac/20 Jagger will have had time to leisurely shove two if not three salvos up your rear armor.

Edited by Devlin Stone, 13 February 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[S13gtastic]

Personly it doesn't make much since to me that 1 JJ is all you need in an assult mech, I kinda just want to see better scaling on all the JJ capable mechs so that if you want to be able to jump spin you better have max jump jets. Heck even constant shake when falling and jetting would be okay to me.

[wanderer]

Let's note that the HGR is basically pushing it as far as "single weapon generating recoi mountablel" for 'Mechs, to the point where even the round is a bit unstable and loses damage as it goes from short-medium-long, never mind maximum. Or that a 'Mech in TT taking -twenty- damage in a single turn risks keeling over, never mind 25.

Falling over if it was done right would be a death sentence for many 'Mechs in MWO. The big flaw in the original fall mechanics was that it gave the fallen 'Mech issues with warping, no control as the pilot got back up, and the classic "Dragon Bowling" tactic of chain-ramming something to constantly leave it helpless. Till THAT got fixed, we couldn't even begin to consider it a potential balancing mechanic for anything.

[Deathlike]

Sam Slade, on 12 February 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Again on a serious note, look at the jumpjets not the mechs themselves: what did people poptart in before the Highlander?

It's called a Cataphract, but noone's demanding that to be nerfed.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 13 February 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

It's called a Cataphract, but noone's demanding that to be nerfed.

Well, not nobody.

Remember, people asked to nerf the MGs.

[Mcgral18]

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I am not so sure that alpha itself is a problem. Your suggestion would simply make it beneficial to pack fewer and bigger guns - when you have to chain fire everything twin AC20s would still be better than any combo of SRMs and MLs. It would make "shotgun" weapons somewhat better if they are not affected by cone of fire effect, but I think it's easier to simply increase overall damage for those weapons.

Might be a better idea to bring the damage down on certain weapons. The "AC20" would be classified as an AC60 and a half recycle (AC70) if we go by the TT 10 second turn. An AC2 is an AC20, so a pair of them is pretty much the TT equivalent to the AC20 due to doubled armor.

And aren't most people already packing some of the biggest weapons they can? I don't see many swaybacks around.