1026 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

The mechs dont need fixing.
Jumping doesn't need fixing.
The combination of weapon fire while jumping needs fixing.
What we got was a RNG COF in the form of screen shake.
but that proved too harsh on vision thus it got nerfed to the point
PGI is considering changing mechs and that is a bad thing.
Fix the game system, dont gimp the mech, weapons or equipment.

Make the targeting icon move around, but the rest remain stable.
I loath pop tarting but it should still be part of the game.....
just not a primary attack mode.

Edited by Tombstoner, 10 February 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Vandruis]

All thrust limitations aside (They really need this. ineeddis.jpg)

Why on earth would jump-jet shake affect something in a free fall? With gyros you can pretty much guarantee that the mech will be a stable platform on the way down.. That in no way shape or form would be acceptable. Once you're falling, you're just that.. falling.

[White Bear 84]

FupDup, on 05 February 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

While it is clear that the Highlander is a dominant mech, IMHO this is more because of other mechs not being good enough rather than the Highlander itself being too good.

On a side note, a nice indirect nerf to the Highlander (and other jumpjetting alpha snipers) would be to change the jumpjet formula. Right now you get most of the kick from just 1 jet, and adding additional jets has a "diminishing returns" effect. How it should work is linearly. I.e. 2 jets should be twice as good as 1. 3 should be 3 times as good as 1. Etc. etc. He should have to mount all of the jets to get all of the boost. This would take up some additional tonnage and critical slots on the Highlander (and other JJ mechs).

Love it FupDup, great suggestion

[Ryan Steel]

TygerLily, on 07 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

So, why don't you "ultrapilots" dominate in Medium mechs all day, everyday NOW? All I see is the same ol'... I agree, let's get this brawl game going...I can respect that but a 90-ton mech shooting from 1000 meters away? It's a weak showing of your "skill".

You are wrong. The Steel Brothers have ravaged many a battlefield with our Wangs hanging out. Sometimes my Wang does take a beating but it just needs some time off to reload. The mech itself may be a medium but be fooled not of its mech size--the length and girth of its cannon is nothing to scoff at. Even after Adrian uninstalled, I still have a fellow pilot that shares his Wang with mine. Banananutmuffins is a formidable Wang pilot, and with his yellow camo, his Wang does indeed have a rather large banana.

Back in Heavy vs the World, some guys at DV8 announced that we needed a Medium top 5 placer, so I volunteered my Hunchback 4P services and placed a close second to Icebank's Cicada, which behaves more like a light.: http://mwomercs.com/...nt-performance/ Nonetheless, Icebank is a formidable pilot and who's to say he still wouldn't have clinched 1st with a larger medium? Good times.

Even with the recent introduction of the Shadowhawk, I'd venture to say that the 4P would still give it a run for its money, even though the Shadowhawk has an edge in tonnage and jumpjets. I used my Hunchback 4P in 12s a few days ago and got the second to highest in damage amongst the Lords in one match on Alpine even amongst our jumpjet mechs, but was beaten by Banana or deforce's dakka Jager.

The mediums will certainly have an even stronger presence when tonnage limits are implemented. If you're a good medium pilot, I staunchly believe that your performance will determine a team's win or loss.

On the topic of the Highlander and jumpjets, I'd be rather excited for a change. I've been exclusively piloting non-jumpjet and non-ppc mechs for the past few days, and it's rekindled some of my enjoyment for the game. Banananutmuffins and I have been crossing Wangs, bringing in some Fang & Flame duos, and Protecting our team in our Orions. Sure, we've been completely smashed to pieces in these mechs a few times as a few of you have witnessed, but for the most part we've been quite successful even against jump jet assaults. We're persistently pushing our limits to win in these mechs no matter what, and if even there really is a jumpjet nerf, look out for our purple and yellow mechs coming your way.

LORD STEEL & LORD BANANANUTMUFFINS
ggclose

[Victor Morson]

Ryan Steel, on 10 February 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

You are wrong. The Steel Brothers have ravaged many a battlefield with our Wangs hanging out. Sometimes my Wang does take a beating but it just needs some time off to reload. The mech itself may be a medium but be fooled not of its mech size--the length and girth of its cannon is nothing to scoff at. Even after Adrian uninstalled, I still have a fellow pilot that shares his Wang with mine. Banananutmuffins is a formidable Wang pilot, and with his yellow camo, his Wang does indeed have a rather large banana.

And don't forget, the Kintaro and Quickdraw proves that bigger is not always better...

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 February 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Looking to reduce the profileration of poptarters, just have some jumpshake on way down as well, pinpoint sniping wouln't exactly be so pinpoint.
Of and if you try that realworld physics, gyros don't really fix the shake, intended to maintain attitude of the mech catapulting through air. Going up you have jumpjets messing with stable aim, going down drag and continued reducing vibrations from jumpjet thrust would continue to mess your aim.

And definately agree with reducing the effect of one jumpjet to get airborne, but please don't kill off lighter mechs jumpjetting about.

Edited by Haakon Magnusson, 10 February 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[Ryan Steel]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

And don't forget, the Kintaro and Quickdraw proves that bigger is not always better...

My Wang has certainly been Showered by projectiles from the Golden Boy, and I've certainly been practicing to have my Wang quicker on the draw against those Quickdraws. We are definitely in agreement that it's not all about your Mech's size. deforce has shown this to us by piloting commando in his Commando.

Edited by Ryan Steel, 10 February 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Ryan Steel]

MavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

This is part of an article I've begun writing and it may be very controversial but I hope the historical aspects help people understand the game in greater context -- as they say, know your history or you're doomed to repeat it.. (for you guys too young to understand: think World War 2 and Concentration Camps, Nanking Massacre, Unit 731!)

I couldn't agree more with your article. I think movement/terrain mechanics completely pooped on non-jj mechs' ability to maneuver around terrain which rendered them completely inferior to JJ mechs. I've been saying that all along. It completely thwarted their ability to close in on snipers. Fast and agile mechs like my Hunchback were given huge slaps in the face despite the fact that they were already extremely fragile. That has always irked me for sure.

Haakon Magnusson, on 10 February 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

And definately agree with reducing the effect of one jumpjet to get airborne, but please don't kill off lighter mechs jumpjetting about.

This. Light mechs do not need to be nerfed. Jumpjet heavies and assaults on the other hand may need some tweaking.

[MavRCK]

Some good points raised... skill isn't the issue here..

Let me reiterate...

Even if PGI increases heat for JJ's -- JJ mechs will still be preferred because they are more mobile than non-JJ mechs.. Sure you won't JJ snipe as easily... but it'll happen...

But to see the BIG PICTURE.. JJ mechs will get across obstacles faster, better, more consistently than non-JJ mechs.. so no matter how badly you nerf JJ mechs, you will still favour JJ mechs over non-JJ mechs...

So I re-quote myself:

Quote

It is because when balancing MWO, as long as non-JJ mechs lack a solution to the terrain / Slope Mechanic System issue, no matter what balancing is done to Jump Jets themselves, JJ-mechs will always be preferred over non-JJ mechs because the JJs provide solutions for JJ-mechs which non-JJ mechs do not possess.

Edited by MavRCK, 10 February 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[MavRCK]

Ryan Steel, on 10 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Fast and agile mechs like my Hunchback were given huge slaps in the face despite the fact that they were already extremely fragile.

Medium pilots (like myself and Ryan and all of you guys) -- we need to point out how much we've suffered.

Adjusting jump jets isn't going to help the Cicada pilot.. the Hunchback pilot... the Kintaro pilot.. etc..

I loved the medium class because it was the skill-class that did more with less...


There is nothing that can be done to Jump Jets that will fix medium mech issues.... so let's focus on the issue that will help all mechs before focusing on jump jets.



Here's another quote of what I've been working on:

Quote

Solutions proposed:

1. Avoid invisible walls entirely by a global increase in slope % movement allowed by 5-10%. Consider mechanic that any obstacle ie. 5m or lower is essentially invisible to the "foot" of a mech and is not calculated into % slope mechanic.

2. Increase mobility of non-JJ mechs by giving a. increase slope % movement allowed by a further 5-10% b. decreasing reduction in momentum when going up a hill (ie inherent hill climb module) of ie. 25% c. increase base movement turn speed by 5-10%

3. Decrease recharge rate of JJ-mech Jumpjets by 25%.

4. Consider mechanic change: increase in acceleration of elevation gained during use of jumpjets but decrease in rate of fall (ie. quick up, slow down). This allows JJ-mechs to be used positively for mobility, but if used for attacks to have a negative consequence.

Edited by MavRCK, 10 February 2014 - 03:36 PM.

[Ryan Steel]

MavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Some good points raised... skill isn't the issue here..

Let me reiterate...

Even if PGI increases heat for JJ's -- JJ mechs will still be preferred because they are more mobile than non-JJ mechs.. Sure you won't JJ snipe as easily... but it'll happen...

But to see the BIG PICTURE.. JJ mechs will get across obstacles faster, better, more consistently than non-JJ mechs.. so no matter how badly you nerf JJ mechs, you will still favour JJ mechs over non-JJ mechs...

So I re-quote myself:

[/font][/size]

I share your opinion and would like to add that I think terrain/movement mechanics should be completely removed or extremely toned down for non-jj mechs whilst they remain for JJ variants. This may somewhat even out the playing field between JJ mechs and non-jj mechs.

[Ryan Steel]

MavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

I loved the medium class because it was the skill-class that did more with less...

The lethality of the medium class was especially pronouced back when the matchmaker used mech class to make teams. Back then, if you took a medium, you were guaranteed seeing a medium on the other side. If you could perform as well or better than an assault mech, you could really push the match in your favor. Right now there's no incentive for others to pilot a medium, so everyone plays an assault. When I pilot a medium, it's pretty common for me to be the only one in my match as a medium.

Once Greywulfen accidentally typed "target Ryan Steel" in All Chat whilst I was in a Yen Lo Wang. Let's just say my Wang got some action and took a ferocious beating.

[DocBach]

Ryan Steel, on 10 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

This. Light mechs do not need to be nerfed. Jumpjet heavies and assaults on the other hand may need some tweaking.

Easy solution - currently heavier 'Mechs use higher classes of jump jets than lighter 'Mechs; make the heavier classes of jump jets have less turning ability, and make turning ability coincide with the number of jets you have (for all 'Mechs -- light 'Mechs shouldn't get full benefits from running just one jet, either).

[Ryan Steel]

FupDup, on 05 February 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

While it is clear that the Highlander is a dominant mech, IMHO this is more because of other mechs not being good enough rather than the Highlander itself being too good.

On a side note, a nice indirect nerf to the Highlander (and other jumpjetting alpha snipers) would be to change the jumpjet formula. Right now you get most of the kick from just 1 jet, and adding additional jets has a "diminishing returns" effect. How it should work is linearly. I.e. 2 jets should be twice as good as 1. 3 should be 3 times as good as 1. Etc. etc. He should have to mount all of the jets to get all of the boost. This would take up some additional tonnage and critical slots on the Highlander (and other JJ mechs).

That's definitely a good idea, but I'm not sure it would be enough. My Heavy Metal can either go with 18 DHS, 4 JJ, 2 ER PPC and a gauss or use 15 DHS, 2 PPC and gauss with 5 JJ, xl 330, and max armor and work well. Loading up all the JJ makes the mech for me. I think requiring the use all jumpjets for better effect is a great idea, but I think it would only be a slight inconvenience for the other HGN variants. For there to be a significant effect, I think even with max JJ, the highlander should have a maneuvering penalty.

But like you said, which is also what I still believe, buffing other mechs would would a more suitable solution to the problem. Mav's terrain/movement change would be one way to buff other mechs. Improving the effectiveness of other types of weaponry would be another.

[Dracol]

Tombstoner, on 10 February 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

an added layer for differentiating weapons is damage penetration for pulse lasers. The pulse is what lets them penetrate. let them do 10% of there damage to internals with no chance for extra damage but a chance for hitting equipment and you will quickly see brawlers using them as well as lights.

At first I liked the idea, but it might not reflect the brawling style..... Brawlers get in there after long range fire has been exchanged. Their enemies will have sustained damage, so a brawler is looking to try and finish a mech off. Long range fire would benefit from this the most because their the ones ussually working on the armor. Brawlers work more on the internals....

[Rebas Kradd]

MavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Some good points raised... skill isn't the issue here..

Let me reiterate...

Even if PGI increases heat for JJ's -- JJ mechs will still be preferred because they are more mobile than non-JJ mechs.. Sure you won't JJ snipe as easily... but it'll happen...

But to see the BIG PICTURE.. JJ mechs will get across obstacles faster, better, more consistently than non-JJ mechs.. so no matter how badly you nerf JJ mechs, you will still favour JJ mechs over non-JJ mechs...

So I re-quote myself:

[/font][/size]

This has nothing to do with whether the jump-sniping meta will be affected. I think that's all anyone really cares about at this point.

[Victor Morson]

Rebas Kradd, on 10 February 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with whether the jump-sniping meta will be affected. I think that's all anyone really cares about at this point.

Except that this is just one small part of the meta right now. It's not a dominant tactic like it was a year ago. There is literally no issue with jump sniping right now.

The only issue is the fact that viable alternatives to ballistic + energy keep getting screwed over. You swap which 'mechs can jump and which ones can't, and the ones with the good hardpoints will still be the top dogs.

[Nightcrept]

Aww man I missed all the epeen contest...lol.

Too bad I don't know who most of you are..lol. Be good if pgi fixed that issue as I have mentioned elsewhere.



Honestly though the issue isn't even a few poptarting snipers. The issue is entire teams of poptarting snipers. That is op.

Easiest way to fix this is to rework how JJ's operate AND fix srm's.

Perhaps try having JJ's add to the overall heat of a mech like weapons do.

[TygerLily]

Ryan Steel, on 10 February 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

You are wrong. The Steel Brothers have ravaged many a battlefield with our Wangs hanging out. Sometimes my Wang does take a beating but it just needs some time off to reload. The mech itself may be a medium but be fooled not of its mech size--the length and girth of its cannon is nothing to scoff at. Even after Adrian uninstalled, I still have a fellow pilot that shares his Wang with mine. Banananutmuffins is a formidable Wang pilot, and with his yellow camo, his Wang does indeed have a rather large banana.

Back in Heavy vs the World, some guys at DV8 announced that we needed a Medium top 5 placer, so I volunteered my Hunchback 4P services and placed a close second to Icebank's Cicada, which behaves more like a light.: http://mwomercs.com/...nt-performance/ Nonetheless, Icebank is a formidable pilot and who's to say he still wouldn't have clinched 1st with a larger medium? Good times.

Even with the recent introduction of the Shadowhawk, I'd venture to say that the 4P would still give it a run for its money, even though the Shadowhawk has an edge in tonnage and jumpjets. I used my Hunchback 4P in 12s a few days ago and got the second to highest in damage amongst the Lords in one match on Alpine even amongst our jumpjet mechs, but was beaten by Banana or deforce's dakka Jager.

The mediums will certainly have an even stronger presence when tonnage limits are implemented. If you're a good medium pilot, I staunchly believe that your performance will determine a team's win or loss.

On the topic of the Highlander and jumpjets, I'd be rather excited for a change. I've been exclusively piloting non-jumpjet and non-ppc mechs for the past few days, and it's rekindled some of my enjoyment for the game. Banananutmuffins and I have been crossing Wangs, bringing in some Fang & Flame duos, and Protecting our team in our Orions. Sure, we've been completely smashed to pieces in these mechs a few times as a few of you have witnessed, but for the most part we've been quite successful even against jump jet assaults. We're persistently pushing our limits to win in these mechs no matter what, and if even there really is a jumpjet nerf, look out for our purple and yellow mechs coming your way.

LORD STEEL & LORD BANANANUTMUFFINS
ggclose

First and probably the most important thing I want to say is "thank you" for writing something reasoned and not full of capslock Mechwarrior autofellacio...

I completely agree about weight limits...it's going to be fantastic. The 4P is seriously one of the most beastly mediums out there...

Can I ask you a serious question though? I've been playing for over a year now so it's not a matter of L2P...I've been through all the nonsense you have as PGI "balances" the game...Do you think that the poptart tactic is unbalanced? If not, why do the "competitive" teams run 10 of them? If the game is supposed to have balanced roles then wouldn't you NEED to have more than just direct fire?

I was probably too hostile in my responses toward deforce and co. earlier in this thread...I wasn't attacking you as players but just that you claim to be the best but you use the easiest mechs. Isn't that backwards? Kaffe said himself "Brawling is more fun." You yourself just said that without JJ it's rekindles some love for the game. Isn't that because the easy-mode is like playing a game with infinite ammo and health...boring?

I'm saying, we get matched up and I never see you use your superior skill to brawl with the odd-man-out weight class...you just bring four 80-90 ton poptarts and kill stuff from 1000 meters.

[MavRCK]

Tyger -- think of it this way...

If you can move to any location you want with one mech.. and you can't with another mech... then fire all you want while they struggle to reach you...

Isn't that the mech you want?

People keep thinking that's its jump sniping that's the issue... but it's not.. the dps is low..

It's that non-jj mechs can't get to you to shoot you back with their superior dps.