1026 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

P likes to troll, P likes light mechs, P likes PPC's, P likes ECM, P is not a very good player. P has the final say.

Does this help explain certain things?

Edited by Abivard, 11 February 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Not going to lie, I personally find it a lot easier to avoid pop tarts then to avoid LRMs.... all forms of cover work for pop tarts. I haven't taken advantage of the 1 JJ thing so if thats' the thing that is adjusted then that seems to make sense...

And yeah I think the SRMs should be top priority. Firing a 24 rack and having it do 0 damage is disappointing...

[Dracol]

So, 34 pages in... going to throw out a recap of this thread, to help me grasp what everyone has been saying.

Most people agree it would be benifical to look at the Highlander BUT
only after the underlying issues related to mechs of their ilk are handled first.

Mechs utilizing a single sided weapon load out, with jump jets and weapons dealing pin point, up front damage, combine the best advatages currently in the game and minimizes the disadvantages. It has become the preferred configuration for players with higher then average skills looking to maximize their chances.

When it comes to addressing these problems, nearly everyone is in agreement that fixing HSR for SRMS would be the best first step. After that, what else could be done to bring the perfect storm of advantages into a more manageable squall is up for debate. IF MW:O gets HSR resolved (or at least improved) all the following suggested solutions will need to be re-evaluated.

Suggested solutions include, in no particular order:
- Modifying jump jets
- Reintroducing non-instant convergence
- adjusting pinpoint damage weapons
- Decrease the hill climb disadvantage inherent to land bound mechs
- Modifying mechs that can utitlize the particular combination of advantages

Individually, each group of suggestions relates to a particular aspect of MW:O. People are divided on which aspect to change to achieve a better playing experience.


(I think I got all general groups of suggestions, but if I missed one, let me know and I will update the list)

Edited by Dracol, 11 February 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Dracol, on 11 February 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

When it comes to addressing these problems, nearly everyone is in agreement that fixing HSR for SRMS would be the best first step. After that, what else could be done to bring the perfect storm of advantages into a more manageable squall is up for debate. IF MW:O gets HSR resolved (or at least improved) all the following suggested solutions will need to be re-evaluated.

Suggested solutions include:
- Modifying jump jets
- Reintroducing non-instant convergence
- adjusting pinpoint damage weapons
- Decrease the hill climb disadvantage inherent to land bound mechs
- Modifying mechs that can utitlize the particular combination of advantages

Individually, each group of suggestions relates to a particular aspect of MW:O. People are divided on which aspect to change to achieve a better playing experience.


(I think I got all general groups of suggestions, but if I missed one, let me know and I will update the list)

My personal list would be somewhat different (from most important to least important):

1. Hit registration fix. Obviously of utmost importance for a shooter game, but we don't know what exactly is broken there from a technical perspective and I have a feeling that PGI is not quite sure either, so it can be assigned lower priority if it's one of those it-might-take-a-year-to-figure-it-out kind of bugs. There are some "workarounds" that can be considered if this proves to be too difficult to fix properly (i.e. internally treating a missile salvo as a single large projectile and extrapolating damage from how much of that "projectile" intersected with the target).

2. Proper balance between weapons that spread damage and weapons that have pinpoint accuracy. It needs to follow the common scheme of the more you spread damage, the more damage you do overall at the expense of doing less damage to the targeted location. Similar to how MMOs balance AOE skills - less damage to each of the targets than similar single target skill, but all hits combined add up to considerably more damage than that single target skill.

3. Proper balance between long range and short range weapons. If you sacrifice range, you gotta gain something in return (and that something usually comes in a form of greater firepower). When you sacrifice range for nothing...well, we all know how popular pulse lasers are.

#2 and #3 combined would turn brawlers into a natural counter for snipers (jump-capable or otherwise) and, as an added bonus, would allow PGI to get rid of weird game mechanics like ghost heat and gauss charge.

4. Modification to JJs that prevents assaults from turning on a dime with only 1 JJ equipped.

5. Non-instant convergence would be nice, IF (and that's a huge IF) it comes with appropriate indicators for current state of convergence on the HUD. Otherwise, it would be as bad as it used to be.

Just my $0.02

[Victor Morson]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Just going back to the good old days of poking the dragon and running away.

Yes... JJs are being looked at and specifically the initial burst turn. And there are other Mechs on the firing range.

rolly, on 11 February 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I'm pretty disappointed in reading this.

Me too.

It's rare a developer states "I like to come here and anger people then leave them to their anger so it festers." Which is a blunt way of saying exactly what Paul just did.

Now if he'd engage us in a meaningful Q&A where he was listening to what we want instead of just using it as a way to advertise the next "feature" regardless if we want it or not, then we'd have actual community interaction. Instead we have this.

Developer troll drive-bys. Because clearly, we don't have enough problems.

Abivard, on 11 February 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

P likes to troll, P likes light mechs, P likes PPC's, P likes ECM, P is not a very good player. P has the final say.

Does this help explain certain things?

You forgot "P listens to noone."

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 February 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[Dracol]

IceSerpent, on 11 February 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

My personal list would be somewhat different (from most important to least important):

OOps, for got to indicate list was in no particular order. Original post modded.

[Ariock]

If you want to stop the poptarting its easy. About the only weapon you can use to poptart is the ppc. All you have to do is make the ppc's not fire for 1 sec after your feet hit the ground from jumpjetting. This fixes the problem with all poptarts.

[Villz]

IceSerpent, on 11 February 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

My personal list would be somewhat different (from most important to least important):

1. Hit registration fix. Obviously of utmost importance for a shooter game, but we don't know what exactly is broken there from a technical perspective and I have a feeling that PGI is not quite sure either, so it can be assigned lower priority if it's one of those it-might-take-a-year-to-figure-it-out kind of bugs. There are some "workarounds" that can be considered if this proves to be too difficult to fix properly (i.e. internally treating a missile salvo as a single large projectile and extrapolating damage from how much of that "projectile" intersected with the target).

2. Proper balance between weapons that spread damage and weapons that have pinpoint accuracy. It needs to follow the common scheme of the more you spread damage, the more damage you do overall at the expense of doing less damage to the targeted location. Similar to how MMOs balance AOE skills - less damage to each of the targets than similar single target skill, but all hits combined add up to considerably more damage than that single target skill.

3. Proper balance between long range and short range weapons. If you sacrifice range, you gotta gain something in return (and that something usually comes in a form of greater firepower). When you sacrifice range for nothing...well, we all know how popular pulse lasers are.

#2 and #3 combined would turn brawlers into a natural counter for snipers (jump-capable or otherwise) and, as an added bonus, would allow PGI to get rid of weird game mechanics like ghost heat and gauss charge.

4. Modification to JJs that prevents assaults from turning on a dime with only 1 JJ equipped.

5. Non-instant convergence would be nice, IF (and that's a huge IF) it comes with appropriate indicators for current state of convergence on the HUD. Otherwise, it would be as bad as it used to be.

Just my $0.02

Convergence was disabled because if u think the hit reg is bad now wait till that bad boy gets loose again.

Come on people atleast think about what you are going to say before you type it up LOL.

[YueFei]

Convergence wouldn't be a big deal if they removed arm-lock and gave mechs more sensible hitboxes. Provided that you moved laterally and used your arms and shoulders to take hits, most mechs would live a reasonably long lives. Even in this current environment there are some mechs that are quite durable. Hitboxes are a big deal.

Edited by YueFei, 11 February 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sweet jesus, fix my SRMs. I'll trade that for EVERYTHING ELSE. More than a new mech next month. Fixing SRMs will give us BACK half the mechs we have already.

SRMs.... oh how I miss you. I don't need them to be 1 shot kills, I just need them not to suck. That's all. Not sucking. It's been over a year. Year and a half.

Babies have been born, become a 'toddler' and learned to walk. Learned to walk! Learned to walk since the last time SRMs were not garbage. One whole weapon type. Not a weapon, weapon type.

If someone was working hard at it they could have gotten admitted into a college and be mostly finished getting their Bachelors in the field of Computer Science since SRMs have been effectively gone. Gone from high school graduate to getting a degree in the field of Computer Science and SRMs are still bunk.

The guy making Limit Theory will have pretty much created an entire game from scratch in that timeframe. 18 months +.

This is a significant frame of time. I get it's cuz REASONS. I do. However, it doesn't feel unreasonable for me to point out that we're a long ways past 'Game is live and released!' and one whole type of weapon is broken. Not badly balanced, BROKEN. Unable to hit-detect properly.

Really? I mean I get there's a lot on the table. Please understand that I do appreciate that you guys have reams of paper made of lists of stuff that needs done and that UI 2.0 and CW and Clans and STUFF all needs handled. I do. I get it and I understand the nature of prioritization.

We're creeping up on two years though of this being broken. A whole type of weapon. It was broken before - OPed. No question. Still though...

Walking babies, college degrees. It's a topic that deserves some scrap flipped at it. It may not be the hottest button out today but that's as much because of people just giving up on it as anything else. It took 24 months to make NARC useful. Do we have 6 more months to wait for SRMs? Can we have them be useful at the 2 year mark? Even a timeline would be nice.

Edited by MischiefSC, 11 February 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Timeline for SRM fixes:

NOW --------------------------------------------------- Not yet Fixed ------------------- Promise ----------------- Bait Post ------------------------ SRM Announcement ---SRM Apocalypse --- SRM Nerfed to Hell ----------- Hell Froze Over ------------- SRM Fixed ------ CW Launch ------ License Expired

[Wintersdark]

Its frustrating,because with SRM's being broken for so long, _so many_ mechs are left lackluster or terrible. With SSRM's or LRM's being our only missile options - and SSRM's only being useful vs. lights - Missile hard points are only useful for LRM boats and dedicated Light hunters. On anything else they're just lost opportunity.

It's all made of sad sauce. And worse, there's no real interest in fixing them anytime soon.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 12 February 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

Its frustrating,because with SRM's being broken for so long, _so many_ mechs are left lackluster or terrible. With SSRM's or LRM's being our only missile options - and SSRM's only being useful vs. lights - Missile hard points are only useful for LRM boats and dedicated Light hunters. On anything else they're just lost opportunity.

It's all made of sad sauce. And worse, there's no real interest in fixing them anytime soon.

well...I mostly agree, but will say my UAC5, 2 Medium and 4 SSRM SHD.2D2 has claimed a whole lot more Heavies and Assaults as prey than it has Lights. (Of course I'm not silly enough to hare off, leave my team and get ambushed by a wolfpack either, so I usually end up flanking and killing bigger stuff)

Villz, on 11 February 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Convergence was disabled because if u think the hit reg is bad now wait till that bad boy gets loose again.

Come on people atleast think about what you are going to say before you type it up LOL.

lolz. Coming from you...... since the only reason you are anti convergence is it takes away your Poptart crutch.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

well...I mostly agree, but will say my UAC5, 2 Medium and 4 SSRM SHD.2D2 has claimed a whole lot more Heavies and Assaults as prey than it has Lights. (Of course I'm not silly enough to hare off, leave my team and get ambushed by a wolfpack either, so I usually end up flanking and killing bigger stuff)

I'd argue that's not because of the ssrm2's though. More damage done is more damage done... Though not a heck of a lot given how it gets spread.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 12 February 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

I'd argue that's not because of the ssrm2's though. More damage done is more damage done... Though not a heck of a lot given how it gets spread.

Pretty sure I ain't taking down elephants on the strength of a single uac and a pair of medium lasers. Sure, I would like it to concentrate more at times, but it is a part of the puzzle. Heck even if the cockpit shake is merely keeping them from tracking me easily, it is part of the puzzle.

[DrxAbstract]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Pretty sure I ain't taking down elephants on the strength of a single uac and a pair of medium lasers. Sure, I would like it to concentrate more at times, but it is a part of the puzzle. Heck even if the cockpit shake is merely keeping them from tracking me easily, it is part of the puzzle.

Pretty sure a single Mlas could take out an elephant... On the point of SSRMs - they are bugged. Rather, they were before the last patch however the lack of discussion on either side about the topic leads me to believe few if any are aware of it.

[MavRCK]

rolly, on 11 February 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I'm pretty disappointed in reading this. I do support the improvement of this game but at first glance this looks like piece-meal patching. Is this the only way we can balance this game?

/snip/

I see little point in whittling down mechs attributes to the point of nullifying the advantages of investing in them.

I also feel that the nature of this post hinting about nerfing is counter productive in fostering stronger better community relations. Hinting at a possible nerf without clear specifics, and reasons why, really seems like egging the community. Sure we have a lot of QQ's and trolls, but I feel poor taste to drop a hint like this just to stir up discussion, especially after such progress has been made to bridge and build trust after the release of UI 2.0. Users have already come out and taken their time to post illustrations of how UI 2.0 can be made more ergonomical.

YueFei, on 11 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Convergence wouldn't be a big deal if they removed arm-lock and gave mechs more sensible hitboxes. Provided that you moved laterally and used your arms and shoulders to take hits, most mechs would live a reasonably long lives. Even in this current environment there are some mechs that are quite durable. Hitboxes are a big deal.

Every time I read a post by Rolly and Yuefi, I am struck by their depth and intelligence.

I wish -- wish I could beg Garth / Paul / PGI - to look at their posts and just think about what they say...

[IceSerpent]

Villz, on 11 February 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Convergence was disabled because if u think the hit reg is bad now wait till that bad boy gets loose again.

Uhm...what are you trying to say exactly? Convergence was disabled because of something *I* think? Convergence has something to do with hit registration? Sorry, but attempts to parse that sentence hurt my brain.

Quote

Come on people atleast think about what you are going to say before you type it up LOL.

Oh, the irony...

[DocBach]

Villz, on 11 February 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Convergence was disabled because if u think the hit reg is bad now wait till that bad boy gets loose again.

Come on people atleast think about what you are going to say before you type it up LOL.

Two problems were present when convergence time was; first, they didn't put in any of the hit-registration fixes which made weapons like PPC's and ballistics viable. They were very iffy weapons back then.

Second, there was no indication to let you know how well your weapons had converged, so those PPC's that didn't do damage even when they hit would criss-cross in wacky ways right in front of you.

They got the first problem fixed for the most part (at least with the direct fire weapons). If they were going to redo convergence they really need to overhaul the whole mechanic to give the player some indication of how well their weapons have converged to the point of aim.

[Bilbo]

DocBach, on 12 February 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Two problems were present when convergence time was; first, they didn't put in any of the hit-registration fixes which made weapons like PPC's and ballistics viable. They were very iffy weapons back then.

Second, there was no indication to let you know how well your weapons had converged, so those PPC's that didn't do damage even when they hit would criss-cross in wacky ways right in front of you.

They got the first problem fixed for the most part (at least with the direct fire weapons). If they were going to redo convergence they really need to overhaul the whole mechanic to give the player some indication of how well their weapons have converged to the point of aim.

This put me off arm mounted ballistics for a long time. Seemed like every third shot went off at some bizarre angle for no apparent reason.