59 replies to this topic

[Sparks Murphey]

I guess "technically" my Shadow Hawk -2D2 is a medium at 55 tons, but still I like to think it's a light 'Mech. It moves at over a hundred km/h, packs streaks and medium lasers, and it is far better at hunting lights (including your I-wanna-be-a-light Cicada) than any light and most mediums. Of course, if I'm counting it as a light, then I guess I'm forced to admit that a nimble Cataphract -3D with jump jets, PPCs and AC/5s can take it down quite handily, so maybe the Cataphract is the best light 'Mech in the game. Though, admittedly, the Cataphract generally finds itself outclassed one-on-one against an Atlas, so maybe the Atlas is the best light 'Mech.

Hey, Tiggo, are you sure you're not secretly a Lyran?

[levitas]

Sparks Murphey, on 06 February 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

the Atlas is the best light 'Mech.

Have you considered joining a steiner scouting lance?

[Ngamok]

Cicadas are good if you pilot them like a Jenner (only one that comes closest is the 2B with the 4E in the arms) but the Jump Jets is what the Jenner will kill you with because they can always out maneuver you with them.

[Nikkoru]

Tiggo Bitties, on 06 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

How in the hell is the Jenner the universally acknowledged "Best Light" in the game. Screw the jenner. I run the cicada in beast mode. I have included a few builds for your viewing pleasure.

I used to love my Cicadas, and I really really resisted getting a Jenner.

But, now that I have one, I have to say, you are 100% wrong.

Jenner is better than Cicada. In addition to what others have mentioned, the biggest difference is that the jenner is much much smaller than the cicada, which means it is much harder to hit and more survivable.

[Tesunie]

Deathlike, on 06 February 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

I still use Streaks, and they still kill lights, so I'll just chuckle at that thought.

Really? I know that they are suppose to kill lights, but my SSRMs (on my Dragon and apparently also on my new Shadowhawk build) can't seem to even breach the armor of a Locust. Yet, it seems to deal massive damage to anything not a light mech (including Cicadas). I don't get it... (My Stalker and other mechs seem to have SSRM damage kill lights though.)

But seriously, my Dragon and Shadowhawk can unload round after round of SSRM into a light, end a match with 200+ damage, and still not seem to kill that light, or even breach it's armor! I'm... being a little stumped about this right about now...

Sparks Murphey, on 06 February 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

I guess "technically" my Shadow Hawk -2D2 is a medium at 55 tons, but still I like to think it's a light 'Mech. It moves at over a hundred km/h, packs streaks and medium lasers, and it is far better at hunting lights (including your I-wanna-be-a-light Cicada) than any light and most mediums. Of course, if I'm counting it as a light, then I guess I'm forced to admit that a nimble Cataphract -3D with jump jets, PPCs and AC/5s can take it down quite handily, so maybe the Cataphract is the best light 'Mech in the game. Though, admittedly, the Cataphract generally finds itself outclassed one-on-one against an Atlas, so maybe the Atlas is the best light 'Mech.

Hey, Tiggo, are you sure you're not secretly a Lyran?

Technically, my Dragon is a heavy mech, but I let it roll and play around with the lights. He's just a... very big light... (He's sensitive about his weight... shhh...)

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 06 February 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

But seriously, my Dragon and Shadowhawk can unload round after round of SSRM into a light, end a match with 200+ damage, and still not seem to kill that light, or even breach it's armor! I'm... being a little stumped about this right about now...



Technically, my Dragon is a heavy mech, but I let it roll and play around with the lights. He's just a... very big light... (He's sensitive about his weight... shhh...)

Keep an eye on your range. SSRM's only go 270 meters and lights can be quick. If your chasing them or firing across the angle the missile may be exploding before they physically catch them, especially if your firing at 180+.

But there are also some HR issues so maybe a combination of both?

[Ngamok]

Tesunie, on 06 February 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Really? I know that they are suppose to kill lights, but my SSRMs (on my Dragon and apparently also on my new Shadowhawk build) can't seem to even breach the armor of a Locust. Yet, it seems to deal massive damage to anything not a light mech (including Cicadas). I don't get it... (My Stalker and other mechs seem to have SSRM damage kill lights though.)

But seriously, my Dragon and Shadowhawk can unload round after round of SSRM into a light, end a match with 200+ damage, and still not seem to kill that light, or even breach it's armor! I'm... being a little stumped about this right about now...



Technically, my Dragon is a heavy mech, but I let it roll and play around with the lights. He's just a... very big light... (He's sensitive about his weight... shhh...)

Dragons can only mount 2 SSRM2s at most. Not really enough to make Lights that scared because they can always out run you (106.7 KPH is the fastest a Dragon will ever go). Your Shadowhawks should be running 2-4 of them though. Only one I run streaks on is the 2D2 so I can run 4 of them, same with the 3M Griffin.

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 06 February 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

The answer and always will be JJs.

If I wait for a Cicada to RTB on a map like Canyon or even Terra Therma, it might take a while longer.

100% this. I've been running Cicadas since '94 and MW:O's implimentation of JJs has pretty much rendered the Cicada, and other land locked mechs, obscolete. The bug is bigger than the Jenner which makes it an easier target. It is 5 tons heavier but only gets like 1-2 more points of armor per location. And while it has a greater torso twist angle, the added 10 degrees to both sides doesn't matter when the jackass Jenner can jump shoot you to death. Plus, and if all of that wasn't a big enough kick in the face, the overall length of the Cicada means that even bad jump shooting neckbeards can core your FRONT CT from behind simply because the entire top surface of the bug is attached to the front CT AND the antennae on top are also part of your front CT.

All that being said, I want you all to quake in fear of the monstrosity that is the splatter dakka Cicada:

280XL
FF
ES
LB 10-X
Small Laser
MG x 3

Oh yes, run in fear.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 February 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 06 February 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Keep an eye on your range. SSRM's only go 270 meters and lights can be quick. If your chasing them or firing across the angle the missile may be exploding before they physically catch them, especially if your firing at 180+.

But there are also some HR issues so maybe a combination of both?

Ngamok, on 07 February 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Dragons can only mount 2 SSRM2s at most. Not really enough to make Lights that scared because they can always out run you (106.7 KPH is the fastest a Dragon will ever go). Your Shadowhawks should be running 2-4 of them though. Only one I run streaks on is the 2D2 so I can run 4 of them, same with the 3M Griffin.

I'll respond to each of these at once:

My Dragon only has 2 SSRM2s (same as my Stalker and Jenner), but my Shadowhawk has 4 SSRM2s.

I think I'm having a hit registry problem, for light mechs, with SSRMs. I have unloaded round after round into a light, and they walk away without any armor breaches. But if, say something that really happened, I'm going into a Jagermech, I end up ripping the Jager apart with just my SSRMs alone. (My Shadowhawk as 2 PPCs (not ER) and 4 SSRM2s.)

I've caught lights standing still with my hawk and it doesn't seem to make a difference. I can recall a time I was at Theta in Canyon, and I saw that a spider was dancing back and forth from one of the large stones to shoot at my team. I went around, got behind him, and unloaded the SSRMs for a good while. Didn't even breach his rear armor or anything. And he was standing there for a while. Then I had another case with a Locust that ran over a hill and just about into me, and I unloaded into him. He ran off (and I chased him with good line of sight for a decent while) and he only had yellow armor. Mind you, this is with 4 SSRM system.

I do know about the range limits of SSRMs and I'm fairly certain I was close enough (when I can't damage with a PPC, that should be close enough). Best I can come up with is HSR possibly having the missiles hit and explode "here" and the mech when it registers is now "over there", making it so they only get hit with some splash damage instead of actual damage... (I've actually seen the SSRMs hit, with no obstructions, and not even make the damage display flicker and my reticule didn't even turn red, yet they hit on my screen, should have hit, and there was nothing in the way...)

I'm also thinking it might be a HR problem, like with SRMs. But, I don't see this problem with my slower/heavier mechs. So far, I've only really noticed this problem with my Dragon and Shadowhawk (Dragon moves 104 KPH and "chases" lights, and my Shadowhawk doesn't really pursue lights too much, as it moves 81 KPH).

I'm thinking it might be time for me to start considering recording some of my matches, and then replay them/submit them with my questions. (Replay them to see what is happening outside the pressures of combat.) It might also "just be me" as few other people seem to see this problem...

(Anyone know of a good, free, recording program that hopefully won't slow down the game itself? )

[SniperCon]

Trauglodyte, on 07 February 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

It is 5 tons heavier but only gets like 1-2 more points of armor per location.

To be precise it get +8 each leg, +8 each side torso, and +4 center torso (+1.08 tons). In fact, the armor bump from 35 to 40 tons is the second largest armor increase for any weight jump (the largest being 20>25). On top of all that, the locations of armor are exactly where the Cicada wants it (legs, torso, no arms). Not only is your statement wrong, it couldn't be more wrong.

Edited by SniperCon, 07 February 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[Tesunie]

More on topic...

I have a Cicada that's designed as a Hollander III!

XL 220 (98 KPH)
Gauss Rifle (5 tons ammo)
Med laser

I love to play "peekaboo" behind an enemy mech with it. They typically don't see me for a while, enough for at least 3 gauss shots into their rear armor...
Haven't played it in a while though... Not since the Gauss change. Maybe I should correct this today?

[Trauglodyte]

SniperCon, on 07 February 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

To be precise it get +8 each leg, +8 each side torso, and +4 center torso (+1.08 tons). In fact, the armor bump from 35 to 40 tons is the second largest armor increase for any weight jump (the largest being 20>25). On top of all that, the locations of armor are exactly where the Cicada wants it (legs, torso, no arms). Not only is your statement wrong, it couldn't be more wrong.

Oh noz! I made a blank statement where I didn't feel like actually LOOKING because I wasn't trying to bring specifics into it but rather make a point. I guess that I lose the internet.

[Fang01]

Let me introduce you to the natural order of things:

[TercieI]

Trauglodyte, on 07 February 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Oh noz! I made a blank statement where I didn't feel like actually LOOKING because I wasn't trying to bring specifics into it but rather make a point. I guess that I lose the internet.

No, just this argument. When the facts actually counter your point, you don't have one.

That said, this thread makes me long for a Solaris mode. Much though I love Cicadas, I harbor no illusions: they are gimped Jenners. Bring any Cicada and an equally skilled pilot in a Jenner will wreck you and wreck you hard.

[Tesunie]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

No, just this argument. When the facts actually counter your point, you don't have one.

That said, this thread makes me long for a Solaris mode. Much though I love Cicadas, I harbor no illusions: they are gimped Jenners. Bring any Cicada and an equally skilled pilot in a Jenner will wreck you and wreck you hard.

Jenner's ability to jump helps, but what can really turn the tide is the Jenner's missile hardpoints too. SSRMs can be very effective in a fast mech dual... ACs are normally less effective.

Can still be a toss up on who could win. Cicada and Jenner can mount basically the same laser armaments. Jenner has jump. Cicada has more armor to take a few extra hits. I think it's a fairly close match, and seen as I've used both, I should know that it's anyone's game here. (Skill and situation dependent.)

[Trauglodyte]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

No, just this argument. When the facts actually counter your point, you don't have one.

Fine. I'll do it like this, then.

Jenner vs Cicada

Arm: 24 vs 24 (push)
Side Torsos/Legs: 32 vs 40
CT: 44 vs 48
Head: 18

So, the Cicada gets 36 more points of armor than the Jenner along with 5 more degrees of torso twist per side and 10 degrees more of torso pitch vs. 5 JJs and all of the agility that comes with it.

In the end, the Cicada loses. There is no debating this, with or without the specifics. Whether its the Jenner D vs the Cicada 2A or the Jenner F vs the X-5. The bug will lose the match every time given the same level of talent among the drivers. You can't escape the Jenner while it can and you can't out turn the Jenner.

[NRP]

Heh, this thread is funny. I like Cicadas too. If you can't aim at high speeds, you'll suck in a Jenner just like you suck in a Cicada. JJs won't magically change that.

I don't agree that they are the worst Mediums at all. It is basically a Light, and Lights rule the game. The best Mediums are lightest Mediums and the heaviest Mediums. It's the ones in the middle that suck.

That said, I think Tiggo Bitties was just having a bit of fun with this thread, probably after a few drinks.

[TercieI]

Tesunie, on 07 February 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Jenner's ability to jump helps, but what can really turn the tide is the Jenner's missile hardpoints too. SSRMs can be very effective in a fast mech dual... ACs are normally less effective.

Can still be a toss up on who could win. Cicada and Jenner can mount basically the same laser armaments. Jenner has jump. Cicada has more armor to take a few extra hits. I think it's a fairly close match, and seen as I've used both, I should know that it's anyone's game here. (Skill and situation dependent.)

I've also used (and mastered) both.

The JR7-F compares directly to the CDA-2A and the JR7-D to the X-5 in terms of weapon mounts, but I disagree with your conclusion. Pilot skills being equal, the Jenner wins every time.

[TygerLily]

That extra 5 tons and two ML can't hold a candle to a single jump jet....

[TercieI]

TygerLily, on 07 February 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

That extra 5 tons and two ML can't hold a candle to a single jump jet....

Also, medium movement archetype vs. small. That's a big deal which has so far gone unmentioned.

Edited by Terciel1976, 07 February 2014 - 09:48 AM.