139 replies to this topic

[SI The Joker]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I think having turrets in Assault makes it too similar to Skirmish.

It makes more sense in Attack/Defend because only one side is defending in that mode, so the defenders need all the help they can get. The goal for each team is cut and dry; one side defends and the other attacks.

Capturing the enemy's base in Assault is supposed to be easier than in Attack/Defend so that it forces the teams to balance their attention between defending and attacking. If you make it harder to capture, it makes the decision to focus solely on attack in Assault a lot easier...which pretty much makes it like Skirmish mode.

Ok but seriously... you're in a war zone and you don't leave something behind to protect your mobile base? That in itself, in my opinion, is justification enough to have some turrets around.

It's not that I don't see your point... I do... but I think that the turrets add a new dimension to how you approach the base. I think there could be less turrets and perhaps make them so a light mech could destroy them without being critically wounded as to keep some semblance of what existed before, but overall I do think they were a positive addition to the game.

Except that part about them shooting my legs. Seriously. Every MLAS turret did nothing but try to leg me. Can they be set to shoot randomly?

Edited by SI The Joker, 07 February 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

So far in my Hunchback at least, turrets haven't really been a problem. The LRM's can kinda suck, but you can usually duck and weave through cover to get away from them. I actually dropped on several maps with turrets and with all of them I was doing brawling while within the range of the turrets.

That being said though, I do agree that eventually this might just force people to either sit in their bases and camp, or just fight in the middle like Skirmish mode. I almost wonder if we need something like eliminating the "Kill all the enemy" goal entirely to force people to try and cap?

[Bhael Fire]

SI The Joker, on 07 February 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Ok but seriously... you're in a war zone and you don't leave something behind to protect your mobile base? That in itself, in my opinion, is justification enough to have some turrets around.

It's not that I don't see your point... I do... but I think that the turrets add a new dimension to how you approach the base. I think there could be less turrets and perhaps make them so a light mech could destroy them without being critically wounded as to keep some semblance of what existed before, but overall I do think they were a positive addition to the game.

My take on Assault is that it's an unsecured area that you are fighting the other team for; that is, it's an area that you have just arrived to and are fighting to secure. In this mode, YOU are supposed to be the defense for your base.

With Attack/Defend, the defender's base is already well established and would have more permanent defenses like turrets, walls, infantry, land/air support, etc.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Turrets are great so far, but I have a few Quality of Life quibbles.

1 - As mentioned earlier in the thread, they need some kind of target info, so we can see how hurt the turret is and to help us know when it's been destroyed.

2 - When you kill a turret there needs to be some kind of audio notification. I think Betty should say "Target Destroyed" when your target gets taken out, and this would help with both mechs and turrets.

3 - PGI should try to build a little damage sweeping into the laser turret behaviors. Being in a fast-moving light and having one drill you perfectly in the side torso for the full burn time of the lasers is a bit excessive. They should add just a little drift to the lasers when they're firing. If AI turrets are always perfect shots, then why do mechwarriors use their own weapons? Why not just have them drive while a computer shoots? Battletech doesn't have AI targeting anywhere near that effective (even pulse lasers rely on an initial target selection from the mechwarrior). Turrets should have people manning them, which means they won't aim perfectly.

[SI The Joker]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

My take on Assault is that it's an unsecured area that you are fighting the other team for; that is, it's an area that you have just arrived to and are fighting to secure. In this mode, YOU are supposed to be the defense for your base.

With Attack/Defend, the defender's base is already well established and would have more permanent defenses like turrets, walls, infantry, land/air support, etc.

Ok that's fair and I can see where you're coming from on it. Maybe bring the # down a bunch? 3 turrets? 2 MLAS 1 LRM turret? Easier to kill but still gives the team an extra minute or so to get back to base?

[Trauglodyte]

So, to summarize:

Pre-turrets: People ***** about getting capped so PGI gives us Skirmish.
Post-Skirmish: People ***** about there being no point in Assault and getting capped so PGI gives us turrets.
Post-turrets: People ***** about turrets turning the game into Skirmish and how useless Lights are in Assault

Really?

[Scryed]

my thoughts on turrets are......don't care about them.

Where is Community Warfare.......eff making up BS on game modes we had for 2 years already.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Two lights working n concert can take very little damage while burning turrets down quickly ime.

They prevent cap racing by lights (which I like) while not being even remotely insurmountable. It gives the defender a reasonable chance to get back in time prevent a poached win if they choose to.

Additionally those that try to play more defensively can effectively tie their efforts into the turret system giving themeelves an edge but not an OP effect.

[Dimento Graven]

Scryed, on 07 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

my thoughts on turrets are......don't care about them.

Where is Community Warfare.......eff making up BS on game modes we had for 2 years already.

Actually, there has to be more game mode options to base CW on.

So, yeah, more game modes please...

[Fut]

Doctor Proctor, on 07 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

That being said though, I do agree that eventually this might just force people to either sit in their bases and camp, or just fight in the middle like Skirmish mode. I almost wonder if we need something like eliminating the "Kill all the enemy" goal entirely to force people to try and cap?

Well this is smart.
Make it so that you actually have to Assault the enemy's base in Assault mode. I like it.
Would force people to make the tough decision too; Stay to defend, or try to attack.

I'm sure there'll be a lot of back on the field as people come up with the best strategy.

[Bhael Fire]

SI The Joker, on 07 February 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Ok that's fair and I can see where you're coming from on it. Maybe bring the # down a bunch? 3 turrets? 2 MLAS 1 LRM turret? Easier to kill but still gives the team an extra minute or so to get back to base?

I think with Skirmish being introduced the importance of fighting in Assault should be diminished; that is, the overall goal should be to capture the other team's base (instead of fighting in the center of the map until one side is dead).

So basically, these should be the objectives for each mode to keep them distinct from being only variations of TDM:

Skirmish = Destroy the other team
Assault = Capture the other team's base
Conquest = Tug of War
Attack/Defend = Team A attacks, Team B defends

I think too many player still think of Assault as a death match, when the overall goal is to "assault" the other team's base, while at the same time defending your own.

But with the reward system being what it is, no wonder there's so many conflicting ideas on what the overall goal of each mode is. Adding turrets to Assault only exacerbates the situation.

[wanderer]

Quote

Turrets seem to defeat the purpose of base assault which is to cap and turn it into skirmish.

When I'm using LRMs, I love having a 'Mech spot these things. A salvo or two and wreckage happens, and with turrets you can deliver from maximum range if you've got someone smart enough to snipe at em a bit while you crack the turrets.

Mediums also do real well in dealing with these. A mixed bag of scouts and mediums will eat through the defenses and take the place.

[Kenyon Burguess]

I ran into them a couple times last night. as long as you keep moving from cover to cover your just fine as you thin them out, but if your one of those silly light pilots who runs in to cap and are used to stopping to alpha shoot other mechs, your gonna get killed. its a completely L2P mechanic issue. my only suggestion would be 1 large pulse instead of 2 med lasers.

[Iqfish]

Turrets are great!

"Assault" should be a large group of mechs storming a base and not 2 Jenners roflcoptering around the base and capping it

[Zyllos]

I have yet to play against turrets.

Do they always aim for the CT or do they randomly select a spot and fire at it?

[Bhael Fire]

IqfishLP, on 07 February 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

"Assault" should be a large group of mechs storming a base and not 2 Jenners roflcoptering around the base and capping it

That's Attack/Defend.

Assault should be capture your enemy's base as fast as you can before they can capture your's. Part of the point is assigning a lance to defend against those roflcoptering jenners. If you leave your base undefended, it gets capped. Period.

Adding turrets to Assault makes it too similar to Skirmish because removes the importance of defending your base.

[Iqfish]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

That's Attack/Defend.

Assault should be capture your enemy's base as fast as you can before they can capture your's. Part of the point is assigning a lance to defend against those roflcoptering jenners. If you leave your base undefended, it gets capped. Period.

Adding turrets to Assault makes it too similar to Skirmish because removes the importance of defending your base.

I can easily destroy all the turrets with my shadowhawk, they are definately capable of defending the base for themselves

[Doctor Proctor]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

That's Attack/Defend.

Assault should be capture your enemy's base as fast as you can before they can capture your's. Part of the point is assigning a lance to defend against those roflcoptering jenners. If you leave your base undefended, it gets capped. Period.

Adding turrets to Assault makes it too similar to Skirmish because removes the importance of defending your base.

Defending the base was always a fool's game anyway. Say you leave an entire lance to defend, what are the possibilities of what will happen then?

• The enemy team sends two Jenners in, which your lance crushes. The remaining 8 of your teammates are now fighting 10 enemy mechs, who are probably heavier than those Jenners. This is the best case scenario.
  
• The enemy team goes for a base rush with the majority of their mechs (rare, but it happens) and they crush your lance, then sit on your base while your 8 teammates try to take on all 12 of them.
  
• The enemy doesn't send anyone for your base, or just doesn't have any Lights, and then puts all 12 of their mechs against your 8 allies. They will kill at least a few mechs before the defensive lance realizes that they're need on the front lines, at which point the battle has already tipped into the enemy team's favor.

Of course, you could go with less than a full lance to defend the base, but that's even worse. A single mech will probably die to the Jenners, but won't imbalance the whole match too much. 2 mechs might be able to defeat the Jenners, but then you run into the number probems of scenario #2 and #3. 2 mechs is still a decent chunk of your force...enough that you will feel their loss, but not enough to stop a large rush.

The reason that base defense works in real life if because you're typically dealing with hundreds or thousands of troops at a time. It takes time for forces that large to be defeated, and individual units have much less importance. Plus, the bases they're defending are typically fortified positions that act as force multipliers, allowing a much smaller force to hold off a much larger one. Their goal usually isn't to defeat the enemy either, but merely hold them off until they can get reinforcements from their more mobile troops that will crush the enemy assault. You just can't get that kind of dynamic in 12v12.

[Khobai]

Dimento Graven, on 07 February 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

I think turrets actually make assault MORE assault like.

No longer is it simply a matter of who can get their lights on the base first.

No longer is there a 'keep a light alive' long enough to cap, while 12 enemies attempt to get back to base fast enough to deal with it.

The 'cheap and easy' win no longer exists in River City or Crimson Strait, and this is good for the game.

In fact, I was surprised they were so weak. 150 HP? They don't last long under concentrated fire, so a TEAM working effectively will evaporate them quickly enough.

So far (I reserve the right to change my opinion later) they are fine, and add to game play.

Nope it makes it more like skirmish. Capping is now 100% pointless except as a way to avoid chasing lights.

Light mechs are also pointless in base assault now. Because it's basically skirmish and lights have no role in skirmish, they just get obliterated by highlanders/victors with BAP and streaks. Maybe if game modes gave lights something to do, people would play something besides highlanders, and pgi wouldn't have to nerf them.

Making light mechs even less useful is definitely not better for the game. Conquest is now the only game mode lights are consistently viable.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 07 February 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Nope it makes it more like skirmish. Capping is now 100% pointless except as a way to avoid chasing lights.

Light mechs are also pointless in base assault now. Because it's basically skirmish and lights have no role in skirmish, they just get obliterated by highlanders/victors with BAP and streaks.

Conquest is now the only game mode lights are consistently viable in. Making light mechs even less useful is definitely not better for the game.

Nope, we disagree. I don't believe it should be possible for a single f'ing 20 ton 'mech to be capable of standing on an f'ing square, that's somehow SO IMPORTANT, but SO UNDEFENDED, and win a match.

It's stupid, it's immersion breaking, and I'm glad there's a few maps it is now MORE DIFFICULT for that to happen.

Lights are JUST AS viable in Assault mode on those maps as they were before, it's just no longer a 'free ride' on the base.

I mean c'mon, you're going to fly 500 million light years, to stand on a square for a few minutes and claim victory?

Give me a break...