9 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Hi all! I decided to risk and post something in the General Discussions section (only the most audace forumwarriors may get that close to hell).

My post is about one of the most hottly discussed weapons: autocannons and PPCs.

I will be quite short and will shoot straight; i want to generate a sane discussion and need some your imput.

But please: do not start with the "PGI did, PGI didn't, PGI sucks" stuff, ok? had enough of it.

Back on topic: we all hate the current meta: jumpsnipers like the Highlander and Victor are kings, and UAC/5 + PPCs reign thanks to their pinpoint damage and range, while double AC20 cheese can deal 40 damage on a single location and decrease way too much the time needed to destroy a 'Mech.

First, about ACs: currently they all fire a single shell each tap, and that shell deals all the damage on the single location it hits.

What if, we make ACs (especially UAC/5 and heavier) fire two or three shells instead of a single one?

IIRC, in the lore most ACs are supposed to work in this way, firing a burst of bullets.

Pro:
-the damage is divided among the shells (UAC/5, 2 shells, 2.5 damage each; more interesting, AC20, 3 or 4 shells, 6.7 or 5 damage each) so the damage is more likely to be spread over more hitboxes.

They are not supposed to be more powerful machine guns so i would say the stream of bullets should give a good chance of hitting the same location. This means that most of the time you will hit on the same location but could well hit two different hitboxes when firing against a fast moving target (or a 'Mech rotating its torso).

Ammo should be recalculated, counting magazines/cartridges instead of single shells.

.-They require more skill against fast-moving targets.

-They follow more the lore.

Cons:

-Occasionally this system could reward bad aim: a player could aim, for example, to the arm instead of correctly aiming to the side torso of his target and the last shot of the burst could hit the side torso, blowing it up, while with the current ACs he would have missed his intended target while only scratching a fresh part.

About PPCs:

-They could deal some kind of splash damage: a bit of the damage could be spread on the closest location(s) so not all the damage is dealt to the same spot, increasing the time needed to kill that 'Mech; besides, it could help making players shift their aim to different targets to have more different fights: an arm or leg damaged by splash damage could attract the aim of the player, for example.

Because no one wants to "just always aim for the CT with your max alpha and win".

Keep this constructive, thanks.

[PhoenixFire55]

In canon BT there are various models of ACs firing either one slug with full damage or multiple slugs. I have nothing against this idea but I believe PGI should strife to fix hit detection and messed hitboxes first. The more projectiles you have the more strain on servers you put, thus possibly making those same HSR issues worse.

PPCs were already doing splash damage at some point during beta (might have been not intentional but still), and that made headshots waaay too easy. I remember being able to headshot an Atlas like 1 times out of 3-4 shots. Your idea makes sense tho, but it seems each time we had weapons with splash damage in MWO it was broken in one way or the other. Not sure if its the engine limitations or something similar.

Jump-snipe meta was nerfed half a dozen times already, but so far to no avail, mostly because its not weapons that are to blame but pinpoint auto convergence. You change AC firing mechanics and people will put other weapons on their pop-tarts.

[Jesoo_Creesto]

CyclonerM, on 07 February 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

What if, we make ACs (especially UAC/5 and heavier) fire two or three shells instead of a single one?

About PPCs: They could deal some kind of splash damage:

Right like MWLL, after all...everyone knows that MWLL is much better balanced than this one.

Actually I wonder why PGI didn't just copy entirely that game, not only maps and laser mechanics as they are doing now (even if they are still doing it in a bad way). They can do that, they would not have to face lawyers...

PS: Also, you forgot 8 sec reload time for PPC.

Edited by Starch1ld, 07 February 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Thanatos676]

This idea has some merit actually.

[CyclonerM]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

In canon BT there are various models of ACs firing either one slug with full damage or multiple slugs. I have nothing against this idea but I believe PGI should strife to fix hit detection and messed hitboxes first. The more projectiles you have the more strain on servers you put, thus possibly making those same HSR issues worse.

PPCs were already doing splash damage at some point during beta (might have been not intentional but still), and that made headshots waaay too easy. I remember being able to headshot an Atlas like 1 times out of 3-4 shots. Your idea makes sense tho, but it seems each time we had weapons with splash damage in MWO it was broken in one way or the other. Not sure if its the engine limitations or something similar.

Jump-snipe meta was nerfed half a dozen times already, but so far to no avail, mostly because its not weapons that are to blame but pinpoint auto convergence. You change AC firing mechanics and people will put other weapons on their pop-tarts.

Oh well. I was not yet in the game back in the CB days, so i had no idea.

Also, yeah, hit detection issues could give more trouble than ever. Better scrap my idea then..

..Because there is, of course, a better one (never get tired of linking it) I just wanted to propose another one.

p.s. @Star: pizza.

[Crackerbox]

I like these ideas. I've always wanted to experience a close-to-lore version of the auto-cannon and I feel like the stream of shells would have been an easy way to balance high-alpha machines. Other things would have to change, though, because at that point, laser weapons and AC's might feel a bit too much alike.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

If PGI changes ACs to burst-fire weapons, the AC2 and AC5 should be 2-round burst weapons, and the AC10 and AC20 should be 3-round burst weapons, with 0.10s between shots.

PPCs should receive a damage arcing mechanic. On impact they do 50% damage, then jump to a location adjacent to the first hit for 30% damage, and then jump to a location adjacent to the first jump location for a final 20% damage. This retains their punch while reducing their single-location burst damage.

[East Indy]

I think heat scale constrains PPCs. The remaining issue is the autocannon.

I'd see what pushing the AC/5 toward dakka would do by itself — maybe cut it to 2.5 damage per shell, 0.75-second cycle, 1,900 velocity.

I love tossing 20s from my Hunchback as much as anyone, but if it needs to be done, split it and the 10, too.

[Fooooo]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 07 February 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

If PGI changes ACs to burst-fire weapons, the AC2 and AC5 should be 2-round burst weapons, and the AC10 and AC20 should be 3-round burst weapons, with 0.10s between shots.

PPCs should receive a damage arcing mechanic. On impact they do 50% damage, then jump to a location adjacent to the first hit for 30% damage, and then jump to a location adjacent to the first jump location for a final 20% damage. This retains their punch while reducing their single-location burst damage.

Like urm...chain lightning in warcraft3 ?

Thats an interesting idea as if splash dmg still has bugs, this would go right around those bugs. (splash was/is based on a radius effect afaik)

I guess there is probably a few ways to go about it.....


You roll a dice which determines which way it will jump on the first jump. (adjacent to the first hit ofc and minus the head unless it was the first hit)

The ppc jumps to this location.

It then jumps to the next location across. In the case of hitting a ST and it jumping to the ARM on the first jump, it would either jump back to the original location or back to the closest location that has not been jumped to.....minus the head probably...


Another way would be to have it based on distance to the initial hit.(probably more server intensive this one)

Basically the closest section to the hit is where it jumps first, the 2nd jump would either have to roll for a random location / random adjacent location like the first way does, or continue the jump in the direction its going.....

IE CT to RT to RA.

It cant go CT to RT back to CT or CT to RA to ST. So if you hit the right hand side of the CT it jumps to the right etc..........lower CT jumps to both legs maybe ? ARMS always goes back to ST then CT etc etc.



AC's as burst fire I've always thought was one of the best options also....as long as the servers / hsr can take it.

Edited by Fooooo, 07 February 2014 - 09:28 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

CyclonerM, on 07 February 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Also, yeah, hit detection issues could give more trouble than ever. Better scrap my idea then..

Not scrap it but rather postpone it. Rarely you see an idea that actually makes sense, probably helps to fix an issue and doesn't go againt canon same time. Its technical limitations now, if we did have perfect hit registry I'd say implement this right away. If PGI will in future add weapons like RACs (Rotary AC), they'll need to deal with major amount of bullets in minimum time span anyway, might as well look into regular ACs then. Personally I'd love to see us being able to choose in mech lab if we want our ACs to do single full damage slug or multiple slugs, as well as ammo type for them.