261 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

What the LBX needs to be is not a halo-style shotgun. It was never that.

What it needs to be is a Flak gun. A real flak gun.

That means a single slug continuously flinging bits of itself off until it reaches it's maximum range. This is what it was like in mechwarrior 3 and the LBX was a terrifying weapon, even without different ammo types.

Edit, it should be a series of slugs, not a single slug, none of our autocannons for our purposes should be single slugs. I know that breaks with TT in some ways, but combined with pinpoint weapon convergence, front loaded AC damage is part of the reason we have such a stale meta game.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Edit, it should be a series of slugs, not a single slug, none of our autocannons for our purposes should be single slugs. I know that breaks with TT in some ways, but combined with pinpoint weapon convergence, front loaded AC damage is part of the reason we have such a stale meta game.

Agree with having a string of slugs, though perhaps not for the LB. If the amount of scattering is sufficient then it defeats itself when it comes to pinpoint damage anyways. I would have much prefered to see MW3 style autocannon shots, with a continuous stream for ultras that built up a "heat bar" until they jam (and jam for a significant amount of time). No pinpoint frontloaded damage and no RNG jam.

[Featherwood]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Watching people who have no clue what the real hardpoint distribution of Clan mechs are because they never looked outside of Mechwarrior 4 or MechAssault getting schooled in how things are supposed to be make me happy inside.

My only qualm with the Warhawk's layout is the UNDERSLUNG placement of the LRMs. An over the shoulder arrangement seems like a more logical placement for a weapon system that is capable of indirect fire.

Yes, I was wrong, Warhawk Prime had never had LRM10 in torso, messed it with Dire Wolf and old image from TRO 3050, but it does not matter. What really matters, that some pretentiuos kitten is meowing too boldly, shus, get lost in that smoke which makes you so happy inside.

[Pariah Devalis]

Seems to me I have done nothing but watched someone make a fool of themselves, and now I get attacked because...? Ego problem? I have nothing to atone for nor a reason to value blind swings of the wrongfully belligerent. Take your tantrum home.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 February 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Featherwood]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Seems to me I have done nothing but watched someone make a fool of themselves, and now I get attacked because...? Ego problem? I have nothing to atone for nor a reason to value blind swings of the wrongfully belligerent. Take your tantrum home.

At least you have some courage to admit your problems with ego, what else could coerce you to attack my mistake so boldly. Of course you are innocent and should be adorned, lol, your quick interpretative reply shows it well. Ciao, kitten, I never liked your junkie kin, you are not an exclusion.

[pbiggz]

Featherwood, on 12 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

At least you have some courage to admit your problems with ego, what else could coerce you to attack my mistake so boldly. Of course you are innocent and should be adorned, lol, your quick interpretative reply shows it well. Ciao, kitten, I never liked your junkie kin, you are not an exclusion.

We WERE having an actual discussion here, stop being a standoffish ********* and take a hike stravag.

Edited by pbiggz, 12 February 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I am still trying to figure out what, precisely, Featherwood does around here besides being a disruptive entity. I have yet to see a consistent pattern of productive conversation out of him.

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Edit, it should be a series of slugs, not a single slug, none of our autocannons for our purposes should be single slugs. I know that breaks with TT in some ways, but combined with pinpoint weapon convergence, front loaded AC damage is part of the reason we have such a stale meta game.

In TT and specially in the books, ACs are not a single round.
AC/2 = 2 rounds;
AC/5 = 5 rounds;
...
AC/20 = 20 rounds.

Yes, it contradicts the fact in TT the ACs are weapons that deal full damage to one location. (but there is a special rule that you can split the damage between two targets)

Edited by Odanan, 12 February 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Featherwood]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

We WERE having an actual discussion here, stop being a standoffish ********* and take a hike stravag.

Really? But you and that high kitten were so glad to go off topic, I would never guess it is so critical to you to stay on topic.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

7
I am still trying to figure out what, precisely, Featherwood does around here besides being a disruptive entity. I have yet to see a consistent pattern of productive conversation out of him.

I bet you see some other patterns on the wall, go ahead, do not disrupt you vision on such entity as me.

[dwwolf]

Try the poor summoner or Adder, 3 EFFING WEAPONS SLOTS IN PRIME CONFIG ! 3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Odanan]

dwwolf, on 12 February 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Try the poor summoner or Adder, 3 EFFING WEAPONS SLOTS IN PRIME CONFIG ! 3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3 minimal hardpoints. They will probably be inflated (like in the Griffin). Right, PGI?

[Pariah Devalis]

...abd what you can do with three hard points is astounding with Clan tech. With a modicum of finagling you can probably cram in stuff like an ultra 20 and a streak 6 to back up that 15 damage erppc, lending itself to a 50(70) alpha.

Oh yes. Lament the limited number of hard points.

I will not.

[wanderer]

Odanan, on 12 February 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

In TT and specially in the books, ACs are not a single round.
AC/2 = 2 rounds;
AC/5 = 5 rounds;
...
AC/20 = 20 rounds.

Incorrect. The /xx number simply measures the total damage in a burst, not the number of shells fired- depending on caliber and fire rate, you can easily have a high-burst 60mm or a low-burst 120mm be "AC/5"'s. However, 99.9% of BT's autocannons DO burst-fire in some amount, from 3-5 per burst on up to much larger bursts for AA 'Mechs like the Jagermech.

Quote

Yes, it contradicts the fact in TT the ACs are weapons that deal full damage to one location. (but there is a special rule that you can split the damage between two targets)

TT lasers also deliver full damage to a single location- but it's a simplification. At higher rates of fire (TacOps "double-tap" rule for standard AC's, Ultra AC's, and Rotary AC's) you first roll a to-hit, then see how much of the burst hits, and roll random locations for each part of said burst (so a RAC/5 fired in 4-shot mode rolls to hit, then sees how many of the shots (1-4) hit, then rolls locations for each shot that did. That is, they didn't want to drown people in dice rolls. When BT was first made, the rulebook was a thin one designed to be simple enough to pick up in a few minutes- the massive tomes we have nowadays are the work of decades of expansion on that, and stuff like damage delivery comes from those original 1980's rules. It is, simply, "at the core of the game".

[FlareHeart Devalis]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

...abd what you can do with three hard points is astounding with Clan tech. With a modicum of finagling you can probably cram in stuff like an ultra 20 and a streak 6 to back up that 15 damage erppc, lending itself to a 50(70) alpha.

Oh yes. Lament the limited number of hard points.

I will not.

I may be fairly new to the lore and history behind some things, but the research that I have done leads me to lean with Pariah on this one. 3 hard points in Clan terms can be packed with some scary stuff.

[pbiggz]

FlareHeart, on 12 February 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I may be fairly new to the lore and history behind some things, but the research that I have done leads me to lean with Pariah on this one. 3 hard points in Clan terms can be packed with some scary stuff.

Usually it's the same with IS too, but given our current era and tech level, we wont be getting some of our nicer IS weaponry (ultra autocannons 2, 10, 20, lbx autocannons 2, 5, 20, HVACs, Heavy Gauss Rifles, Er small/medium lasers, SSRM 4s,6s, MRMs [specifically the mrm 40], etc) until at least the late 3050s. Right now we have lots of good weaponry, restricted to certain calibers, such as the SSRM 2s, ultra AC5s and ER large lasers, meaning we have to use either more of them, or less of other weapons to make those work, and meaning we can't stretch our hardpoints out very easily.

Edited by pbiggz, 12 February 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[FlareHeart Devalis]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Usually it's the same with IS too... Right now we have lots of good weaponry, restricted to certain calibers, such as the SSRM 2s, ultra AC5s and ER large lasers, meaning we have to use either more of them, or less of other weapons to make those work, and meaning we can't stretch our hardpoints out very easily.

Fair enough, though with these clan mechs coming out with quite a few of the aforementioned scary clan weapons, I think it will be less of a problem with the clan mechs than with the IS mechs. We just need to wait and see I guess?

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Stormwolf, on 08 February 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

PGI's divergence from the TT is what is causing most of the problems here. You would normally be able to reconfigure your OmniMechs without being limited by hardpoints, just check out the canon configs here (use the variant box):

Timber Wolf/Mad Cat

I bet you won't be able to build things like the S and Pryde variants with PGI's customization system.

Also, a ton of people here don't have access to any recordsheets and whatnot, here's the stats for the other proposed mechs:

Dire Wolf/Daishi
Warhawk/Masakari
Summoner/Thor
Stormcrow/Ryoken
Nova/Black Hawk
Adder/Puma
Kit Fox/Uller

Don't get your hopes up when you see a set of hardpoints you like, Clan mechs are never going to be properly implemented because:
1. The mechlab gimmick broke the regular mechs by allowing too much customization without any drawbacks.
2. There are no restraints on tonnage, BV, tech level and Era settings.
3. Omnitech is designed for use in campaigns (refit inbetween missions), MWO is just a endless grind of singular missions.
4. Clans won't have any identity to them (honor point systems), everbody would just flock to the Clans without a proper reward/punishment system if they could grief Clan tech.
5. PGI doesn't care about point 1 to 4, they only want to sell mech packs.

Unfortunately, as always, Storm hits all points 100%.

[Cimarb]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Simple enough change to fire rate would sort it out, though. If you made LB autos fire 30% slower than ACs you trade rate of fire for variable ammo, and you gain rate of fire from Ultras with the ability for it to jam.

Variable ammo is not worth a 30% firing rate nerf. Not even close.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Watching people who have no clue what the real hardpoint distribution of Clan mechs are because they never looked outside of Mechwarrior 4 or MechAssault getting schooled in how things are supposed to be make me happy inside.

My only qualm with the Warhawk's layout is the UNDERSLUNG placement of the LRMs. An over the shoulder arrangement seems like a more logical placement for a weapon system that is capable of indirect fire.

100% agree with your first point.

An under slung arm-mounted LRM would be useful for indirect fire, just like it is on an M203 grenade launcher, which is mounted under the barrel.

[Strum Wealh]

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

What the LBX needs to be is not a halo-style shotgun. It was never that.

In BattleTech, it is (and always has been) precisely that: "an anti-BattleMech shotgun".

"In addition to firing the standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-'Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location." - TRO 2750 (the first book in which the LB-X is introduced to the BattleTech universe), pg. 08
(Identical wording is also used in the original Classic BattleTech Master Rules, the Revised CBTMR, and the original TRO 3050.)

"Natasha's laugh survived computer modulation intact. "Of course. Would you prefer that they use a strategy that makes them comfortable or uncomfortable?"
"Point taken. This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe. Once you've softened him up, your lasers ought to cut him to ribbons."
Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"
"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."" - Natasha Kerensky & Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19

"Shunting plasma flow from the fusion engine into his jump jet reaction chambers, Doles guided the Emperor into a ninety-meter spinning flight that landed him directly behind the Marauder. Realizing his error the Periphery warrior tried to turn into the attack, but too late. Lasers flared ruby energy into its already-weakened rear torso and sides, evaporating any remaining armor it might have claimed and then carving deep into internal support structure. The autocannon hammered its shotgun-like ammunition into the breaches, each fragmenting piece ricocheting deeper than the one before in search of critical components." - battle between Colonel Warner Doles' Emperor (firing a LB 10-X) and a Taurian Concordat Marauder, The Killing Fields, chapter 36

"As he ran, Jake saw Petra bring her Stormcrow forward and to the right, closing in on the second Avatar to bring her autocannon into play. Her opponent took a few steps back and launched a double-salvo of LRMs from its shoulders, following it up with a shotgun-like blast from its right-arm autocannon. Her speed made her a difficult enough target that the cannon shot went wide, but her Stormcrow weathered a spread of twenty long-range missiles before she raised her 'Mech's left arm and let rip with the autocannon." - battle between MechWarrior Petra's Ryoken B and a DCMS Avatar Prime firing a LB 10-X, Test of Vengeance, chapter 13

pbiggz, on 12 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

What it needs to be is a Flak gun. A real flak gun.

That means a single slug continuously flinging bits of itself off until it reaches it's maximum range. This is what it was like in mechwarrior 3 and the LBX was a terrifying weapon, even without different ammo types.

Firstly: that description - "a single slug continuously flinging bits of itself off until it reaches it's maximum range" - doesn't really fit any known shell functionality.
Perhaps you were thinking of a Shrapnel shell - "munitions which carried a large number of individual bullets close to the target and then ejected them to allow them to continue along the shell's trajectory and strike the target individually"?


Secondly: neither the "continuously flinging bits" model nor the Shrapnel shell model is how LB-X ACs are described in BattleTech; they are consistently described as "anti-BattleMech shotguns" that fire a cluster munition whose behavior is modeled after that of canister rounds like the 120mm M1028 Canister used by the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank (which "discharges [a] massive blast of fragments at muzzle exit") and the grapeshot from which it is descended (and which also "broke up when the gun was fired, spread out in flight like a shotgun charge, and sprayed the target area")... or like the shotshells that are descended from both & to which the LB-X ACs are often & repeatedly compared by various BattleTech rulebooks and novels, with "slug" munitions (which were actually explosive shells rather than true slugs (which, by definition, carry no payload/warhead); the "slug" designation was very likely selected to reference shotgun slugs and further emphasize the role of the LB-X as "anti-BattleMech shotgun") that served as its alternate firing mode (which is not (yet?) implemented in MWO).

As such, PGI's "shotgun-esque" implementation of the LB-X cluster rounds is in fact "correct" in that it is true to the descriptions and portrayal of the weapon's descriptions & portrayals in the source material, and reimplementing them as proximity- or timer-detonated Shrapnel shells would be antithetical to that the LB-X is supposed to be.

[Dakkaface]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 February 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I would have much prefered to see MW3 style autocannon shots, with a continuous stream for ultras that built up a "heat bar" until they jam (and jam for a significant amount of time). No pinpoint frontloaded damage and no RNG jam.

Ah, but then how would they handle the eventual implementation of rotary AC's?