32 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

After playing for two weeks, I finally came to this conclusion.

I'm not sure what's the mentality behind that projectile speed decrease, but if it's for further de-syncing AC20 and PPCs while decreasing its long-range combat capabilty... well, it's effect is marginal, and it's doing more bad to us single-AC20 brawlers than any good it did in other regards.

The decrease of projectile speed forces you to spend a lot more time facing the target and leading the shot, while slowing down yourself so you'll have less movements to compensate when leading the shots. And as we all know, moving and twisting is what brawling is about.

Think about it.

[Ngamok]

Not sure if it was meant for the AC/20 + PPC (950 m/s to 1500 m/s still seems off whereas the AC/10 matched it better) or for those dual AC/20 JM6 snipers. Because people were pretty good snipers with those mechs with 950 m/s speed.

[Joseph Mallan]

MW:O AC20 (as a 203mm singel shot cannon) has a velocity of 650 m/s a RL 203mm naval gun is 760m/s... they are close enough. Faster would be nice, but don't see it as needed for my (F)Atlas AC20.

[cSand]

Helmstif, on 07 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

The decrease of projectile speed forces you to spend a lot more time facing the target and leading the shot, while slowing down yourself so you'll have less movements to compensate when leading the shots. And as we all know, moving and twisting is what brawling is about.

AT brawling range, leading the shot really isn't an issue

[wanderer]

If you're at 270m, what on earth is lower projectile speed giving you heartburn about?

If you're past 300m or so, it's not a brawl anyway. Brawls are when I can hit people with MG's and it actually does damage range.

I've been plowing AC/20's into people from Cataphracts built-to-brawl just fine at this point. Now, if they'd just fix SRMs and what seems to be their issue with hitting multiple hitboxes and "phantoming" out to zero damage, I'd be rockin.

[East Indy]

It was a brute force nerf, but after playing a fair number of matches in my Hunchback, I've found that only shots near maximum range feel like lobbing a football; otherwise, the adjustments to leading fast-moving targets have been easy to make. I'd have to disagree on effects: in my segment of the population, meta players have almost entirely crowded onto the PPC-AC/5 raft. Even Miseries have diversified.

[MadCat02]

They nerfed it because AC20 was doing like 12 damage at 400 meters .

Projectile speed nerf will discourage people from shooting it that far .

Edited by MadCat02, 07 February 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Wait! You think that it was a horrible change just because you can't use it effectively? Maybe you should try learning to aim to adjust? Try rolling into the Testing Grounds and work on it. I'm in there sometimes just so that I can try new builds or tactics. One of the biggest issues is going 150 kph over rough terrain and hitting someone with a PPC at range. Practice makes perfect.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Does not matter if I think the debuff was good or bad, the reality is that their not a problem and still very effective when used right. Just adjust, adapt and you will be fine OP.

[AC]

The bitching aside, it does seem to have more issues registering damage. Host state rollback is not perfect, and the slow the projectile speed of the weapon, the more issues registering damage.

[Varent]

Helmstif, on 07 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

After playing for two weeks, I finally came to this conclusion.

I'm not sure what's the mentality behind that projectile speed decrease, but if it's for further de-syncing AC20 and PPCs while decreasing its long-range combat capabilty... well, it's effect is marginal, and it's doing more bad to us single-AC20 brawlers than any good it did in other regards.

The decrease of projectile speed forces you to spend a lot more time facing the target and leading the shot, while slowing down yourself so you'll have less movements to compensate when leading the shots. And as we all know, moving and twisting is what brawling is about.

Think about it.

so what your saying is. They heightened the skill cap on a weapon so people cant completely use it as a noob cannon anymore and also did a change to reduce its ability to be used with jump sniping. But they kept it as a viable weapon for skilled brawlers in close....

K... Ya I see your point... it was a horribad change.. ya...

c.c

[Coralld]

AC, on 07 February 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

The bitching aside, it does seem to have more issues registering damage. Host state rollback is not perfect, and the slow the projectile speed of the weapon, the more issues registering damage.

AC20s have been bugy for a while now. some times at point blank ranges they do zero damage and at their max falloff they be hitting for near full damage.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Coralld, on 09 February 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

AC20s have been bugy for a while now. some times at point blank ranges they do zero damage and at their max falloff they be hitting for near full damage.

They never hit with more than 20dmg past 270m.

Hit Registration is bad for all the ballistics. I just ended a match where about half of my PPC impacts resulted in no damage to the enemy because they were moving sideways relative to me, but you don't see AC/20s dealing 20 damage at 500 meters.

MadCat02, on 07 February 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

They nerfed it because AC20 was doing like 12 damage at 400 meters .

Projectile speed nerf will discourage people from shooting it that far .

Yes, yes, we know you hate the AC/10 and think it's worthless. Remember that it has 2x the shots per ton, has a higher projectile velocity, and deals higher DPS at 450m than an AC/20 does.

[Alcom Isst]

cSand, on 07 February 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

AT brawling range, leading the shot really isn't an issue

It's not a big issue, but it is still needed. Against an Atlas D-DC moving perpendicular to me 125 meters away, I still need to aim for the side torso to hit the center torso with an AC/20.

[NextGame]

AC20 is fine other than occassional hit reg issues

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

MW:O AC20 (as a 203mm singel shot cannon) has a velocity of 650 m/s a RL 203mm naval gun is 760m/s... they are close enough. Faster would be nice, but don't see it as needed for my (F)Atlas AC20.

Do any of those 203 mm naval guns have a max range of 540 meters and a blast radius of less than 1 inch? Just checking.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 10 February 2014 - 12:54 AM, said:

Do any of those 203 mm naval guns have a max range of 540 meters and a blast radius of less than 1 inch? Just checking.

Nope... but 600+m/s Means it only takes my game round one second to get to max range. How much faster do we really need to be?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 February 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[Noesis]

AC20 nerf was needed to reduce sniping potential with it and was performing head and shoulders above other weapons prior to the change, it is still a very effective weapon despite this.

PGI WIP with weapon balancing.

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Nope... but 600+m/s Means it only takes my game round one second to get to max range. How much faster do we really need to be?

If it was a Long Tom or some other kind of indirect fire weapon with a blast radius, I would say it's fine. But right now, the main balancing factor seems to be the low projectile speed and the heat, and both of those are far less impactful when you're dealing with poptarts with a good aim. Which means that it punishes skilled players with Highlanders far less than, say, normal players with an AC20 on their Hunchback, Cataphract or Atlas, mechs that rely on sustained fire more than poptarting.

And people who think ammo is a useful way of balancing weapons should just go play Lego Star Wars or something.

[Skyfaller]

Helmstif, on 07 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

After playing for two weeks, I finally came to this conclusion.

I'm not sure what's the mentality behind that projectile speed decrease, but if it's for further de-syncing AC20 and PPCs while decreasing its long-range combat capabilty... well, it's effect is marginal, and it's doing more bad to us single-AC20 brawlers than any good it did in other regards.

The decrease of projectile speed forces you to spend a lot more time facing the target and leading the shot, while slowing down yourself so you'll have less movements to compensate when leading the shots. And as we all know, moving and twisting is what brawling is about.

Think about it.

What you just listed is EXACTLY why it got nerfed.

You want:

- To be able to pop 20 damage in one shot, in one location while exposing your torso the least amount of time to return fire.
- To have the projectile travel fast so it can be used for long range fire.
- To speed sync it better with other weapons.

You don't just fire an AC20 alone when brawling. If you have an AC20 chances are you already outdamage by a significant margin the mech you're facing. Now you have to lead the targets more to hit with the AC20 and that means you cant hit with other weapons at the same time (this is the speed sync part) when brawling so you have to keep your torso exposed to fire longer than usual...

...which means the other mech, with much less firepower, has a chance against you.

This is called balance. You can overcome those problems if you put your mind to it. There IS a way to use the AC20 effectively along with your other weapons... you just need to find it and adapt to a new way of brawling.

When the gauss was given a charge-up delay the bulk of the users of this weapon quit it. I stayed with it, adapted and guess what? I'm doing better with it than before. I learned to use that delay to AIM well and to the same component I had hit earlier... it does expose me to fire more than before but I hit the same component with every shot now (and with the quad med lasers). Where before I would fired a dual gauss snapshot and turned torso, I accept taking return fire in 3 pieces of my mech to do 50 damage to one component while brawling in one hit.