110 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

Jman5, on 10 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Why do people keep bringing up projectile speed like the PPC is slow? It has a speed of 1,500. That makes it the 3rd fastest projectile in the game. Only the AC/2 and Gauss beat it out. Everything else is slower! There is nothing about the PPC that is slow, which makes it incredibly easy to aim even against moving targets from a distance.

I wish the PPC was more similar to the AC10 in projectile speed. It's got infinite ammo, so why not?

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 February 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Roughneck45, on 10 February 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I wish the PPC was more similar to the AC10 in projectile speed. It's got infinite ammo, so why not?

Your wish was granted in the "Beta."

Huge damage weapons had a better idea in the previous games. AC/20 6 seconds. PPC 6 second cool down. (C)ERPPC 8 seconds. Gauss 8 seconds.

[Trauglodyte]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 10 February 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Boating 4-6 ppcs has already been solved by ghost heat, so why does it matter? The splash also helps newer or less skilled players by lessening the impact of perfect aim. Additionally it increases combat times and reduces"Coring" issues in some mechs with small LT/RT that rarely get targeted due to hitbox design/issues. Although I don't like lights (lol), it could also help with one-two shotting component problems that mechs like the locust are vulnerble to.

And so you are saying they have weapon spread implemented in-game right now for arm mounted weapons? That is a good start. I think fully actuated arms should have slightly more spread than single actuator arms (ie raven/stalker), with the least spread going with non-actuated torso mounts. The more I think about it the more I like the spread solution as long as it doesn't hurt single weapons or chain firing as much as the 30+ pinpoint shots (and without nerfing single/dual PPCs as much since they are a fairly hot build and vulnerable to close range.)

I don't really see arm lock as a feature that needs to be removed because some mechs have really bogus hardpoint designs that benefit from the arm lock (ie the Pretty baby's hardpoints are partially in the arms for both missiles and energy.) I do see how it could be abused to get better pinpoint damage though so it may need to be looked at.

I'm ok with PPCs doing like 2-3 points of splash. It'll help lessen the overall impact of the weapon while also laying the ground work for nerfing the Clan PPC. The point is, though, that splash or no splash the PPC isn't really the problem. Nobody has been or ever will be scared of the AC10 which does the same damage. The reason for that is because 1) the AC10 weighs nearly twice as much as the PPC and takes up over twice as much space and 2) there are very few mechs that can carry the AC10 due to the lack of overall ballistic hard points on mechs. The PPC, on the other hand, just needs the space cause every mech in the game, except for the Jenner Oxide and the Catapult A1, has energy hard points. This ties into the point that Bishop and many others have said in that complete and total mech customization without restriction has made it so that everything can have a PPC on it from the lowly Locust to the Atlas. I personally run a PPC on everything that I have because it has been my favorite weapon for 20 years. Back on topic, the reason that I bring up the AC vs PPC is that it isn't the fault of the PPC that we are where we are. Two PPCs equates to 5 DPS which is the same as the AC20, and at the same weight mind you, but is balanced out by needing HSs instead of ammo and has range but also has way more heat and suffers from a minimum range. The PPC is only an issue when used in bulk and/or added to other heavy weapons. In other words, Convergence is the problem and not the weapon(s) in question.

As for your question, when you're JJing, every arm mounted weapon suffers from spread. I'm unsure of the degree of spread for mechs without arm mounted weapons (ie, those without lower arm actuators or mechs mounting weapons in the torsos) because I never fire my weapons while jumping but only after I cease my JJs. Well, I've maybe done it a few times here and there so not never but you know what I mean. If they would apply this hinderance as a heat building effect, convergence would really cease to be an issue. Every mech runs hot anyway so you'd be guaranteed to have your convergence reduced. While it may not be the perfect solution, anything to prevent consistant and constant damage application to sinle locations is a bonus.

As for your final point, I don't mind constant arm lock as it slows down your arm speed (not an issue as your arms are locked and people using it are generally mounting their weaponry in their torsos anyway) to torso twist speed and it is generally a new player only use. The real problem is the Lock Arm To Torso toggle which is currently your left Shift button. The top jump snipers in the game abuse this when running mechs that have heavy weapons in both their arms and torsos (Dragon Slayer, Heavy Metal, etc). So, they circumvent the entire issue of seperate reticles with a button that was added for god knows why. I wonder if they remove it if the top players will just keep arm lock on at all times?

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

And recoil would solve the convergence issue right up.If you survive the heat of double tapping with the UAC20, keeping a Mech on target when firing 2 12 ton cannons should have the mech suffering whiplash and spinal decay post haste.

I've said this more than a few times too. Right now, you see two types of mechs with Energy and Ballistics. The PPC/AC combos and the much smaller AC/Laser combos (Shawks, BJ, etc). I've proposed that when you fire a non-gauss AC, you suffer the same cockpit shake that you would if you got hit by that AC. This would reduce the combination of AC/Laser firing as the pilot has to take a few seconds to reacquire the normal targetting and it would shut down the stupidity of AC2 spamming and would actually help AC2 boaters due to needing to wait more than 0.52s to balance their mechs out from the shake. Furthermore, and this is just an added bonus, it would open up another and much better reason to buy and use the Improved Gyro module because it would reduce your recoil impact and help you against getting penalized by outside cockpit shake.

Sadly, adding in recoil would hammer some builds in how they're currently used. I hate weapon spammers but people that mount ACs, and I've done this too so I'm taking responsability here, tend to spray and pray. It is one of the reasons that you see a lot of threads asking for more ammo. Instead of placing their shots, they're hammering the buttons and hoping for the best. Or, in the case of douche players akin to LRM5 spammers, they're trolling the game by locking people down with shake. Recoil would screw with players that pair different types of ACs. The stock Jaegermech S would required people to relearn how to play that build because the AC2's firing rate would recoil the mech meaning that the following AC5s wouldn't land in the same spot or would straight up miss. That being said, I still think that is a good thing because it, again, forces players to think about what they're doing and TTK is lessened because of it.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 10 February 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[Krujiente]

I'd be more for restricting the ability to alpha ALL these pinpoint weapons at the exact same time. If you have to make 3 or so follow up shots in quick-succession rather than splat once it'd reduce the reliance on these weapons for 100% effectiveness. While not ruining the ability of energy-only mechs to actually have a not shitty weapon. (how many people you see complaining about the no ballistic Highlander or any Awesome? 0. PPCs relied on solely for damage aren't in an amazing place because of the heat they generate.)

Edited by Krujiente, 10 February 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Monky]

Ideally weapons would have been adjusted to deal the appropriate level of damage, ammo consumption if any, and heat if any over 10 seconds. This would have reduced time to kill and provided reasonable heatsink levels for standard heatsinks instead of saddling new players with unworkable mechs until they managed to grind 1.5 mil cbills. From there, most of the balance tweaking would revolve around 'how much damage per shot/how frequently should it fire and remain within those constrictions' and high pinpoint alpha would be a non issue since damage would be split between multiple shots even on the largest weapons. There probably wouldn't even need to be double armor.

Edited by Monky, 10 February 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

NRP, on 10 February 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Some people just want PPCs completely eliminated from the game. Of course, they don't seem to have the intellectual honesty to actually admit it, but their agenda is pretty clear. It makes me understand somewhat the competitive community's frustration with "those that cry Nerf" on every single thing.

If there is a problem, it's with ballistics, not PPCs. To prove it to yourself, go run any Awesome, any Quickdraw, a HGN 733P, or any Stalker that isn't a Misery. See how your effectiveness plummets along with your enjoyment.

PPCs need to be buffed, not nerfed. There are already huge downsides to running an energy build. We don't need any more downsides.

I have used ppcs since before their first "rise to meta" and right now it is my most used and damaging primary weapon. I used the stalker 3F with 4 PPCs and 2 ssrm2s to high effectiveness. I support splash damage/pinpoint damage nerfs to all current meta pinpoint weapons (read: ballistics and PPCs), because I support longer engagement times and variety in competitive weapon loadouts. I want to see more brawling in mwo than sniper fights tbh. Also using the same weapons system since basically last spring is getting really old. My brawler builds get red armor SOMEWHERE every game before i get a decent shot in.

Kazma, on 10 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

JJs are definetly not the problem. PPC Poptarts would still do 30 pinpoint damage on long range even without them.

I just searched for another suggestion I've seen some time ago and found it:
http://mwomercs.com/...391-ppc-damage/
probably the best idea I've seen so far, but very unlikely to be ever implemented because that'd be too much work for PGI
This would make them something between Laser and AC weapons

There was also a much simpler suggestion to make make the damage and heat by half but increase reload.
http://mwomercs.com/...crazy-ppc-idea/

If you don't think JJs are a problem try playing the cataphract 4x/ily. Notice how quickly you get sniped out if you try to counter attack snipers. It epitomizes the issue that makes JJs and mechs like the jager and stalker so good. A phract must fully expose the mech up to the point it's knees are showing shoot, then reverse back to cover. IT is exposed enough time for two volleys of just about any long range weapons if using a hill as cover while only being able to shoot back half as much with it's arm-mounted ballistics. Counter to this a JJ mech is only visible a fraction of that time while also moving fairly rapidly in comparison so that precision targeting a specific component can be difficult. The stalker/jager only have to expose enough of the mech to get the target reticle to converge at the right spot in order ot take full advantage of their main firepower and are never very large targets.

[Black Arachne]

Roughneck45, on 10 February 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I wish the PPC was more similar to the AC10 in projectile speed. It's got infinite ammo, so why not?

Which is balanced by the needs of DHS which ballistics do not require.

Edited by Black Arachne, 10 February 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Well, you could halve the damage and heat of all weapons to put them back in line with Battletech damage and heat per turn. That's all though. PPCs and ERPPCs are superior energy weapons that have very high heat or a minimum range.

MWO has nerfed the heck out of Battletech's energy weapons already. Energy mechs do not compete in MWO right now. To win a duel you need ACs with their non-stop firing. And I keep telling you folks the Clans already won the AC dominance battle. The Clans are 2x better at everything except PPCs and Gauss which is how Inner Sphere mechs compete versus Clan tech. However, with all the current nerfs to PPCs and Gauss this will not be available to Inner Sphere pilots in their defense of the Inner Sphere. Oh well, you have my sympathies.

[TB Freelancer]

Roughneck45, on 10 February 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I wish the PPC was more similar to the AC10 in projectile speed. It's got infinite ammo, so why not?

With heat sinks and 3 tons of ammo accounted for, the AC10 has a 5 ton weight advantage, no minimum range, no ghost heat, no linked ghost heat penalties, fires nearly twice as fast, has a high crit chance, and ammo that doesn't explode making C.A.S.E. or ammo placement considerations pointless....

.....just how far into the ground do you guys want energy weapons pounded into the ground anyway?

Black Arachne, on 10 February 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Which is balanced by the needs of DHS which ballistics no not require.

Actually it isn't even remotely close to balanced in MWO, compare any ballistic weapon to its closest energy counterpart and the ballistic with 3+ tons of ammo and heat sinks usually weighs the same or less, along with all its other inherent advantages piled on top of that and there's simply no down side to ballistics, no matter which weapon we're talking about. You can boat ballistics all day long without issue.

Meanwhile most energy weapons have ghost heat, linked penalties, though even without ghost heat they generate heat so fast that these low DPS, low (compared to their ballistic counterparts) range, damage over time weapons are mostly a waste of tonnage when compared to ballistics.

When most stock energy builds stall out in under 10 seconds, builds that were iconic in TT, builds that were great in all previous Mechwarrior titles, something has gone horribly wrong.

Just for giggles.
The Boar's Head. 5s to overheat, 7s mastered.
Awesome 8Q. 10s to overheat, 14s mastered.
HBK-4P 8s to overheat, 10s mastered

Meanwhile I can build a CTF-4X quad AC5, hold the trigger for 1:14s out of the box. Master it and I can lay down lead for close to 3 minutes with better DPS, better range, no min range, ammo that doesn't explode, increased crit rates, no minimum range.

It doesn't matter that the best a PPC boat could possibly do is fire 2.5'ish staggered alphas because of ghost heat, wait 30 seconds or longer to cool down, the heat system effectively lowering their dps to well under half of the listed value, that they have a minimum range....

...PPCs are OP.

I blame the lack of education system.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 10 February 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think that wouldn't help because it also hurts "normal" use of PPCs. Those jump snipers might deal less damage now, and maybe become less competitive, but what about non-jump snipers that want to use PPCs? If the jump snipers dominated abojut these before, they still would now, and if the regularly used PPCs were as strong as non-jump sniping alternatives before, then they would now be weaker.
Though for the case of jump-sniping - you could lower the damage per shot but increase the rate of fire for PPCs. That would likely hurt jump snipers more, since they will likely be unable to use the new ROF, and thus take the full brunt of the damage per shot loss, while non-jump snipers simply fire a bit mor eoften for the same overall damage output. (That's all simplified, of course, even without JJs, front-loaded damage is an advantage, and having to shoot more often for the same damage in the same time also causes drawbacks....)

---
But in general the question is of course always sound: Why not just take one or two of the existing stats and tweak them?
PGI rather implements new mechanics, like crit-seeking or gauss charge-up mechanics. Maybe because that's more fun then just adjusting some numbers in a spreadsheet / XML?

[Lightfoot]

Taking out Jump-jet snipers is just a tactical adjustment. No need to nerf PPCs. There are several ways. LRM with an LRM spotter is pretty easy. A flanking line that bi-sects their hill or other hidy-hole. Brawl them if when possible.

I can only remember one match when jumpjet sniping won the match. When encountered my teammates always seemed to just brush them aside. JJet sniping is so one dimensional tactically, you just need to think on it a bit when you see it.