110 replies to this topic

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Oh, c'mon! PPC - OP? Again?
SRM was OP, than LRM was OP, after that PPC was OP.
Know what? Everything, that kills me is OP! Just nerf the red team.

[East Indy]

The less damage per shot, the more easily a moving/twisting target can distribute, the higher the TTK.

Weapon	Damage	Cooldown	Heat	Speed	Ammo
PPC	7.50	3	7.50	1,300	-
AC/2	2.00	0.57	1.00	2,000	75
AC/5	2.50	0.825	1.00	1,800	60
AC/10	5.00	1.25	1.50	950	30
AC/20	10.00	2.00	3.00	650	15
LB 10-X	10.00	2.00	1.60	1,100	18

PPC's damage per shot and cooldown are reduced by 25%. Heat scale modified to compensate.

The AC/10's and the AC/20's damage per shot and cooldown are reduced by 50%. Heat scale modified to compensate for the AC/20.

The AC/5's damage per shot is reduced by 50%, but both its resulting cooldown and the AC/2's cooldown are increased by 10%.

Finally, a buff: the LB 10-X's cooldown and heat are reduced by 20%.

Edit: Added speed and ammunition count.

Edited by East Indy, 09 February 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[EvilCow]

PPC themselves are not OP, it is the current slots system that let them out of control.

The best option would be to work on the causes (even my cat knows at this point, convergence, slots etc) but apparently the best we can hope for is some kind of workaround on a flawed system.

Edited by EvilCow, 09 February 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

East Indy, on 09 February 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

The less damage per shot, the more easily a moving/twisting target can distribute, the higher the TTK.

Weapon	Damage	Cooldown	Heat
PPC	7.50	3	7.50
AC/2	2.00	0.57	1.00
AC/5	2.50	0.825	1.00
AC/10	5.00	1.25	1.50
AC/20	10.00	2.00	3.00
LB 10-X	10.00	2.00	1.60

PPC's damage per shot and cooldown are reduced by 25%. Heat scale modified to compensate.

The AC/10's and the AC/20's damage per shot and cooldown are reduced by 50%. Heat scale modified to compensate for the AC/20.

The AC/5's damage per shot is reduced by 50%, but both its resulting cooldown and the AC/2's cooldown are increased by 10%.

Finally, a buff: the LB 10-X's cooldown and heat are reduced by 20%.

one of the worst ideas out there. Yes, let's make the game papercut warrior online, and remove any value to ambushes and such because it will take 10 minutes to kill a mech.

[Jman5]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 February 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

one of the worst ideas out there. Yes, let's make the game papercut warrior online, and remove any value to ambushes and such because it will take 10 minutes to kill a mech.

With his example A common competitive load out of 2 PPCs and 2 AC/5 add up to 20 damage. Calling a 20 pinpoint damage alpha papercut warrior online is ridiculous hyperbole. In a 50 ton medium, 20 damage is enough to bring my side torso armor to less than half health. Sometimes I feel like people are spending too much time in assaults and heavies and they forget how much of a suckfest it is for mediums right now.

Edited by Jman5, 09 February 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

one of the worst ideas out there. Yes, let's make the game papercut warrior online, and remove any value to ambushes and such because it will take 10 minutes to kill a mech.

Exactly. If you wanted to do anything to reduce AC effectiveness, you're really left with burst fire to provide a little but minimal spread or slowing rate of fire. Regardless, that doesn't do anything to solve the problem because it isn't necessarily the weapons but the number of weapons combined with the fact that all shots go exactly where you point. Combat needs to be slowed only slightly to make the game better and that isn't going to happen by reducing AC damage.

Quote

With his example A common competitive load out of 2 PPCs and 2 AC/5 add up to 20 damage. Calling a 20 pinpoint damage alpha papercut warrior online is ridiculous hyperbole. In a 50 ton medium, 20 damage is enough to bring my side torso armor to less than half health. Sometimes I feel like people are spending too much time in assaults and heavies and they forget how much of a suckfest it is for mediums right now.

Also correct. So sayeth the hardest core Hunchy driver in the 'verse!

Both concepts are correct. Like I said, combat needs to be slowed but reducing AC damage isn't the way to go. Putting PPCs to spread probably would help but not to the point of changing the game. Burst fire might help but, like the PPC, how much will it really help? We're in a situation where you can't really analyze a weapon properly until you get the primary game mechanics fixed. Have to paint the horizon first before you add in the happy clouds.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 09 February 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 09 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

With his example A common competitive load out of 2 PPCs and 2 AC/5 add up to 20 damage. Calling a 20 pinpoint damage alpha papercut warrior online is ridiculous hyperbole. In a 50 ton medium, 20 damage is enough to bring my side torso armor to less than half health. Sometimes I feel like people are spending too much time in assaults and heavies and they forget how much of a suckfest it is for mediums right now.

since I drive Mediums almost exclusively, that would negate that argument bro. Nerfing weapon damage again, is NOT the answer, because it is NOT the problem. Perfect convergence is. Actually one of the more interesting ideas I saw espoused somewhere, was about targeting locks, which are part of the fluff. Basically, if you hold your lock, you get your perfect convergence. But if you snap fire, then you do not, and in fact deal with a moderate CoF, as the weapons are not lined up.

You can call it hyperbole, and it may be, but when you keep hearing a poor solution touted time and again, a little exaggeration may well creep into replies. Regardless, it actually PUNISHES the Lighter guys just as much if not more. In my YLW, there is risk reward to trying to sneak in and pop someone with that ac 20 and medium pulses, for 32 damage. Lop that in half, and now its risk, risk, because I have zero chance of handicapping the other guy now.

The point of my arguments, and Peipers, and many others, is to stop slapping bandaids onto an arterial wound, and focus on the actual problem, which is causing almost all of our weapon balance issues.

[Jman5]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 February 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

since I drive Mediums almost exclusively, that would negate that argument bro. Nerfing weapon damage again, is NOT the answer, because it is NOT the problem. Perfect convergence is. Actually one of the more interesting ideas I saw espoused somewhere, was about targeting locks, which are part of the fluff. Basically, if you hold your lock, you get your perfect convergence. But if you snap fire, then you do not, and in fact deal with a moderate CoF, as the weapons are not lined up.

You can call it hyperbole, and it may be, but when you keep hearing a poor solution touted time and again, a little exaggeration may well creep into replies. Regardless, it actually PUNISHES the Lighter guys just as much if not more. In my YLW, there is risk reward to trying to sneak in and pop someone with that ac 20 and medium pulses, for 32 damage. Lop that in half, and now its risk, risk, because I have zero chance of handicapping the other guy now.

The point of my arguments, and Peipers, and many others, is to stop slapping bandaids onto an arterial wound, and focus on the actual problem, which is causing almost all of our weapon balance issues.

I just don't agree with people who say that damage is not a problem. Or that you can't fix balance by tweaking damage numbers. This isn't to say that you can't balance jump sniping a number of different ways. I think you can and I think convergence is an option, just like splash damage is an option, and lock-on convergence is an option.

I'll give a little exaggeration of my own to highlight my point about why damage numbers are important.

Imagine we took every pinpoint weapon and left everything as is: Cooldowns, heat, range, tonnage, and instant convergence. However we made every single pinpoint damage do 1 damage a shot. Dual PPC + AC/20? 3 damage an alpha.

Would that 3 damage pinpoint alpha be OP still just because you could apply it all to 1 spot? Of course not. It would be trash and no one would ever touch these weapons again.

So if you can accept the fact that the amount of damage applied to single components factors in to the power of these builds than I think it's reasonable to say that altering those damage numbers would improve balance.

And to go back to a point made earlier, I do think a single PPC is too strong anyway. 10 damage, no beam duration means very low risk of return fire, 7 tons, low CD, 1-hit crit all items except the ac/20. I think a nerf stick to the pure damage is in order even for builds that don't jump snipe with them.

Edited by Jman5, 09 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[East Indy]

Jman5, on 09 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Calling a 20 pinpoint damage alpha papercut warrior online is ridiculous hyperbole.

I figured Bishop was going to say that, so I appreciate your response.

Bishop, DPS is unchanged. If a player can't land 20 points in the same place over the same period, 1) his target is twisting, in which case TTK is successfully longer, or 2) he can't consistently aim, and game mechanics were his crutch.

Look, my Founder's 'Mech is a stock-plus HBK-4G. I love it. At first glance it'd seem like I'd lose effectiveness through increased facing time, but misses would be less punishing, and unless I decided to walk into an opposing lance, it wouldn't matter much because an AC/PPC-armed opponent couldn't destroy my hunch as quickly as before.

And to your other point, distributed damage is good for lighter 'Mechs. Would you rather take 10 points on your Yen-Lo's right arm and 10 on your center torso, or all of it to the AC?

[FactorlanP]

East Indy, on 09 February 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

I figured Bishop was going to say that, so I appreciate your response.

Bishop, DPS is unchanged. If a player can't land 20 points in the same place over the same period, 1) his target is twisting, in which case TTK is successfully longer, or 2) he can't consistently aim, and game mechanics were his crutch.

Look, my Founder's 'Mech is a stock-plus HBK-4G. I love it. At first glance it'd seem like I'd lose effectiveness through increased facing time, but misses would be less punishing, and unless I decided to walk into an opposing lance, it wouldn't matter much because an AC/PPC-armed opponent couldn't destroy my hunch as quickly as before.

And to your other point, distributed damage is good for lighter 'Mechs. Would you rather take 10 points on your Yen-Lo's right arm and 10 on your center torso, or all of it to the AC?

You'd have to double ammo per ton. I'm not opposed to this concept. Might also have to adjust beam weapons also, simply to keep them from suddenly becoming way better.

Edited by FactorlanP, 09 February 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[East Indy]

Let me add that we can't let this one video game define what an autocannon can and can't be.

I mean, they can behave like tank guns, sure. But in lore, they're rapid-fire. And on tabletop, they hit random locations. There's no guarantee that a Hunchback or Yen-Lo gets 20 points right where they want it.

FactorlanP, on 09 February 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

You'd have to double ammo per ton.

Oh, definitely. Left that out.

Edited by East Indy, 09 February 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[Khobai]

20 damage max pinpoint would slow down Ttk by a few seconds at most. Worst case it makes games last 10 minutes which is still short compared to other games

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 09 February 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

20 damage max pinpoint would slow down Ttk by a few seconds at most. Worst case it makes games last 10 minutes which is still short compared to other games

Not to mention people would simply meta to produce the most rapid series of 20 point pinpoint strikes possible instead.

The problem is being able to put all your damage down in one spot, so fast that there's no ability to distribute any of the damage for the defending target. Lasers let you spread damage if you're moving/twisting. Missiles scatter their damage normally (and when THEY deal damage focused, people scream "Lurmageddon!".). Gauss rifles take committing to a charge cycle with a limited window to fire before the capacitor discharges harmlessly and puts you back in a "reload" cycle.

ACs and PPCs lack any of this right now. They don't need to do less damage, they need to deliver that damage in a way that allows the opponent to not have it salvo through his armor in two easy-to-deliver poptart strikes.

[Jman5]

Khobai, on 09 February 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

20 damage max pinpoint would slow down Ttk by a few seconds at most. Worst case it makes games last 10 minutes which is still short compared to other games

If players were standing still trading shots you would be right. However in my experience people are a lot less precise than they think. It's why I do so much better with my AC/20 than 2 AC/5s which have a higher DPS.

Going from 4 hits to core out a mech to 5 can often mean the fight goes much longer. How many times have you been red cored, but managed to put a lot more shots in before someone finally managed to land that last hit on your CT? On paper reducing the damage slightly might not seem that significant, but in practice it can have a big impact.

Edited by Jman5, 09 February 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[NRP]

Way too much PPC hate.

I hate AC/2s. Why can't we make them do 0.1 damage instead? Same with the AC/20. Make it do 2 damage.

That would be awesome.





/sarcasm

[East Indy]

wanderer, on 09 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Not to mention people would simply meta to produce the most rapid series of 20 point pinpoint strikes possible instead.

Well, weapon weights and sizes would remain the same. Only the AC/5 would deserve a speed increase, and that would tend to pull it apart from PPC bolts when leading at longer ranges.

Combine something like this with the jump-jet nerf and assault mobility nerfs, and you greatly influence results of peek-and-shoot tactics. As Jman says, just one extra trade of fire can make a difference over the course of a match.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 09 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I just don't agree with people who say that damage is not a problem. Or that you can't fix balance by tweaking damage numbers. This isn't to say that you can't balance jump sniping a number of different ways. I think you can and I think convergence is an option, just like splash damage is an option, and lock-on convergence is an option.

I'll give a little exaggeration of my own to highlight my point about why damage numbers are important.

Imagine we took every pinpoint weapon and left everything as is: Cooldowns, heat, range, tonnage, and instant convergence. However we made every single pinpoint damage do 1 damage a shot. Dual PPC + AC/20? 3 damage an alpha.

Would that 3 damage pinpoint alpha be OP still just because you could apply it all to 1 spot? Of course not. It would be trash and no one would ever touch these weapons again.

So if you can accept the fact that the amount of damage applied to single components factors in to the power of these builds than I think it's reasonable to say that altering those damage numbers would improve balance.

And to go back to a point made earlier, I do think a single PPC is too strong anyway. 10 damage, no beam duration means very low risk of return fire, 7 tons, low CD, 1-hit crit all items except the ac/20. I think a nerf stick to the pure damage is in order even for builds that don't jump snipe with them.

that is looking at it's damage in a bubble though. It does do 10 pts pinpoint damage.

it also:
Has a 4 second cooldown
Weighs 7 tons
Generates 10 heat
requires a massive number of heat sinks to achieve heat neutrality, or requires frequent periods of little or no activity.
Has a minimum range of 90 meters under which it does no damage, and no doesn't even disrupt ECM.
Has a laughable projectile speed, meaning it's range, which is only 2/3 that of an ac5 (because it does not get tripled range) is pretty useless.

The issue, is that it is paired, and then added to other pinpoint weapons, which magically converge and hit the same spot, every time. So now, it's not about 10 damage, which is pretty MEH, with double armor, but now we see 20, 25, 30 or 40 damage all at one spot. and because they converge instantly and have no beam duration, it is easily abused by poptarting, which allows for frequent cooling periods.

Now in that, we identify 3 issues, and none are the actual damage from the PPC. (And mind you, I am not saying that the weapon systems should be immune to damage tweaks, but cutting damage in half is a hell of a lot more than a tweak, and in fact essentially negates an entire weapon mechanic, which has the trade off, for pinpoint damage, in theory, of massive weigh and ammo (Autocannons) or massive heat, which requires lots of added heat sinks)

They are:
1) Convergence which is what allows these weapons to hit, at a glance all in the same location.
2)Broken JJs which allow people to get 75% of a mechs Jump functionality from a single jet, thus negating the balancing factor of JJs, the weight invested being that much less firepower.
3) A Mechlab/Hardpoint system that allows ridiculous min/max builds

(and one could say the weapon fire rate in MWO is too fast anyhow, which exacerbates most issues, from alpha damage to heat to the need for doubled armor in the first place)

So tweaking the numbers, is not without some merit and probably needed, but the underlying problems are yet again ignored for any "easy" fix that actually punishes ballistics by taking away their trade off for their extreme mass and ammo needs. And we end up back like in CB where the only answer is the Medium Laser, because ton for damage, nothing tops it.

Please, stop fixating on the symptoms, and actually look at the disease.

wanderer, on 09 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Not to mention people would simply meta to produce the most rapid series of 20 point pinpoint strikes possible instead.

The problem is being able to put all your damage down in one spot, so fast that there's no ability to distribute any of the damage for the defending target. Lasers let you spread damage if you're moving/twisting. Missiles scatter their damage normally (and when THEY deal damage focused, people scream "Lurmageddon!".). Gauss rifles take committing to a charge cycle with a limited window to fire before the capacitor discharges harmlessly and puts you back in a "reload" cycle.

ACs and PPCs lack any of this right now. They don't need to do less damage, they need to deliver that damage in a way that allows the opponent to not have it salvo through his armor in two easy-to-deliver poptart strikes.

and the real culprit remains, convergence.

[Kin3ticX]

if you make weapons do splash damage then you shoot yourself in the foot when it comes to torso twisting to protect cherry red spots.

[Jman5]

NRP, on 09 February 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Way too much PPC hate.

I hate AC/2s. Why can't we make them do 0.1 damage instead? Same with the AC/20. Make it do 2 damage.

That would be awesome.

/sarcasm

Maybe you should make a thread about ac/2s and we can discuss it there.

[Rebas Kradd]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 February 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

since I drive Mediums almost exclusively, that would negate that argument bro. Nerfing weapon damage again, is NOT the answer, because it is NOT the problem. Perfect convergence is. Actually one of the more interesting ideas I saw espoused somewhere, was about targeting locks, which are part of the fluff. Basically, if you hold your lock, you get your perfect convergence. But if you snap fire, then you do not, and in fact deal with a moderate CoF, as the weapons are not lined up.

You can call it hyperbole, and it may be, but when you keep hearing a poor solution touted time and again, a little exaggeration may well creep into replies. Regardless, it actually PUNISHES the Lighter guys just as much if not more. In my YLW, there is risk reward to trying to sneak in and pop someone with that ac 20 and medium pulses, for 32 damage. Lop that in half, and now its risk, risk, because I have zero chance of handicapping the other guy now.

The point of my arguments, and Peipers, and many others, is to stop slapping bandaids onto an arterial wound, and focus on the actual problem, which is causing almost all of our weapon balance issues.

They're not going to remove or radically alter convergence this late in the game. It would start the entire balance process over. Good luck trying to get them to do that.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 09 February 2014 - 03:36 PM.