65 replies to this topic

[Modo44]

It is a gamble if you lower the armor values somewhat, to around your side torso value. I think Victor is talking about the special "my legs have less armor than my head" builds. Ever one-shot a Jager by blowing up its leg? Yeah, those things happen.

[PhoenixFire55]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Bad Idea #1: Lowering leg armor by more than a few points.
Bad Idea #2: Putting ammo in the legs, as it is used last and will transfer explosion into the side torso directly.
Bad Idea #3: Mixing Bad Idea #1 and #2.

As much as I like your post and completely agreeing with #1 and #3, I'm forced to disagree with #2.

If you do have an XL engine there isn't a location to put your ammo in that makes you safe. Legs in this case are best, because they have (potentially) more armor than arms and aren't as frequently blown off in a fight, while arms transfer explosion directly into sides same way. All torsoes are an obvious no as ammo explosion there kills you instantly, legs and arms however do soak some damage if it goes off. Head is (statistically) an excellent choice, but only provides with 1 slot.

For most mech builds a question of crit slots is also a factor. You can't for example put DHS / ECM / AMS into legs but you can put ammo there.

This is different for lights at times. Jenner for example, has tiny side torsoes, thus making them viable as ammo storage much like head on all mechs. Also, people do tend to shoot lights in legs to slow them down, and lights are hardly ever lacking crit slots even with both ES and FF.

Also, this obviousely does not apply to mechs with standart engines, you can (more or less) safely store your ammo anywhere but in CT.

[TercieI]

PhoenixFire55, on 11 February 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Also, this obviousely does not apply to mechs with standart engines, you can (more or less) safely store your ammo anywhere but in CT.

CT is actually a great place for (at least) a ton of ammo in many cases. Especially if you have AMS ammo or a laser in the head, since it will be used first. I generally hope I'll be able to shoot a ton of ammo off before my CT is open.

This makes an important point, IMO: ammo placement is a complicated issue that varies by mech and loadout, considering a number of factors including hit boxes, mech build and consumption order & rates. There is no single easy answer to it.

(Though I agree with Victor, down-armored legs are a really bad idea for ammo storage, especially as your ELO goes up. I used to do this all the time and don't any more, though I know I have builds to revisit before dropping in them)

[Denolven]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Bad Idea #1: Lowering leg armor by more than a few points.
Bad Idea #2: Putting ammo in the legs, as it is used last and will transfer explosion into the side torso directly.
Bad Idea #3: Mixing Bad Idea #1 and #2.

You know what I think is a bad idea? Generalizing. In most cases, putting ammo in the legs is perfectly fine, and I actually have arguments

If it doesn't cause my death, it's perfectly fine. I'll stop putting armor in my legs when leg explosions start to become my death cause. As far as I can remember, I ever only died once to that, plus that one time when I deliberately lowered the leg armor step by step to see how low I can go (17 is too low ). So about twice in 2k battles. I've seen ties more often than I was dying due to leg ammo.
If it's not a problem, there's no point in fixing it.

regarding your arguments:

Spoiler

To emphasize why it is recommended to newbies:
Newbies don't die to leg ammo, they die to CT explosion, always. I remember my newbie days very well. I ran around with like 30% arm and leg armor, because everyone was coring me anyway. Because I didn't know how to spread damage and when to stick my head out of cover and when not. Again, no point in protecting the legs when you get CTed 99% of the time.

Also your arguments are lacking a bit:

• Everything other than the head is linked directly to a side torso. So that's no argument against legs. The only way to not be linked to ST is being the ST. And considering how often that part is shot, I don't recommend putting amoo there if it can be avoided.
  
• Ammo in the legs is used last? Why is that a disadvantage? And what if I tell you it's also the ammo that is used first in many builds?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should always put ammo into their legs. All I say is that leg ammo is NOT the death cause in 95% of all cases (probably even more), especially not when the pilot is a newbie. When calculating risk, you need to consider how often the situation actually applies, and I found leg ammo explosions to be extremely low occurance. Torsos however explode alot, simply because everyone shoots them. So no matter how much ammo I have, I always fill up starting with the lowest risk components, which are head and legs currently.

The same goes for armor. Yes I do damage distribution techniques, but the general rule always applies: to maximize life span, buff the parts that are attacked, not the parts that might be attacked.
Another one of my guidelines: every dead ton is a bad ton (equipment that is never used, like leg armor when nobody is shooting legs).

Edited by Denolven, 11 February 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[MnDragon]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

EDIT for new newbies reading this: In fact I highly endorse stuffing Gauss rounds into your leg, that's entirely safe. It's the only ammo type that is.

Since Gauss ammo is inert you can basically stuff it anywhere there is room, however, I do NOT endorse stuffing it in the leg...unless that is where your Gauss Rifle is located. Use that inert tonnage to crit pad your Gauss. Put the ammo in the exact same component your GR is to increase the chance that the rifle doesn't get hit. A GR is way more likely to crit than any ammo and will still rip a huge hole in your mech if it explodes.

[Zerberus]

Koniving, on 10 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

If you saw two; hard shoulder. What if you see three?

The shoulder with the gauss in it

[ImperialKnight]

Where else CAN you put ammo before legs??

CT? LOL.....
Side torso? So many reasons not to, even when you're not running XL. DHS being on of them. Being the most common area shot off or exposed first is another.
Arms? Arms are shot off more easily than legs. and are usually less armored
Cockpit? Sure. One ton goes really far....

The only bad idea is taking out too much armor from the legs.

Locations for ammo in terms from the best to worst go from legs->cockpit->arms->side torso->CT

OP posted a problem with no viable alternative

[Koniving]

Terciel1976, on 11 February 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

CT is actually a great place for (at least) a ton of ammo in many cases. Especially if you have AMS ammo or a laser in the head, since it will be used first. I generally hope I'll be able to shoot a ton of ammo off before my CT is open.

Agreed. Especially if it's a weapon with a relatively low or fast ammo expenditure. For example, AC/20, AC/10, LB-10x ammo is in short supply and so it really is gone before you're in danger in most cases. LRM ammo spends really fast. SRM and/or streak ammo...not so fast to disappear.

Personally if I can't fit it all among the DHS, I put one in a CT and blend some with the arms and/or legs (Flamer Stalker). Everything except the ones in the legs are heavily padded and the legs themselves are fully armored. No one shoots for the flamer stalker's legs because it's more important to disable my weapon systems. And if by chance they do go for a leg, I can handle 2 ammo explosions without a problem.

(Sure you may have seen this one already but this was the most recently uploaded run with it. Enjoy. Btw; you can hear how wary I am of MGs and LB-10x in it.)

Edited by Koniving, 11 February 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[The Great Unwashed]

There have been many discussions on how much rear armor you should carry and many players do not carry more than 10 points. So, a fine ML/MG barrage in your back from a light (spider/ember) = very good chance of critting ammo: storing ammo in the legs can be a calculated risk. Reducing armor and storing ammo in your legs .. hope for the best. I rarely get legged so I do not worry so much about it.

The Gauss riffle benefits from having its ammo in the same location as the weapon as a crit bufter, as many people already pointed out. By the same logic I sometimes prefer storing other types of ammo in the arms when the legs are full. The arm ammo is expended first and if my arm is already off at the beginning of the game then I'm not really going to contribute to my team anyway (depending on the mech, naturally).

For some mechs (lights) can you easily store the ammo in the cockpit as long as you keep the armor to (near) max. You could actually count your deaths by ammo explosion from the CT and cockpit hits and see how they stack up. Your CT ammo can be critted from the full fwd and aft 90-degree arc of your mech (or more); the cockpit is small and difficult to hit. Not a good idea for Battlemasters though.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 11 February 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[Daggett]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

The sad part is you probably don't realize how many times you've been killed by people destroying your leg ammo, since it'll show you a side torso death.

Hmm, but in that case your leg should be shown missing on that death-doll because it's gone after an ammo-explosion. So you should be able to clearly see if you have been legged prior to your torso's destruction.

[aniviron]

Daggett, on 11 February 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Hmm, but in that case your leg should be shown missing on that death-doll because it's gone after an ammo-explosion. So you should be able to clearly see if you have been legged prior to your torso's destruction.

Also, it does actually list AMMO EXPLOSION of the damage list in all caps when the ammo goes off, so generally I have a pretty good idea when I have died thanks to the ammo going off.

[WonderSparks]

I learned fast (coming from MW4 and SNES MW before that) that one should always pack their legs full of armor, and I never put ammo down there myself. If I ever need to sacrifice any armor to keep tonnage within a .5 ton multiple, I take it from the arms (preferably one with no weapons on it) while trying to keep as much armor as possible.

[DONTOR]

I thought The leg explosion damage from legs went to the CT not the side torsos? Maybe I was wrong, either way a bigger mistake I see more often is ammo not in the head. That ammo is used first and is fairly safe.

[Victor Morson]

Denolven, on 11 February 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

You know what I think is a bad idea? Generalizing. In most cases, putting ammo in the legs is perfectly fine, and I actually have arguments

I think 99% of the people here claiming that they never die to their legs are probably dying to their legs, seeing "XL Engine destruction" and having no idea what actually happened.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 11 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think 99% of the people here claiming that they never die to their legs are probably dying to their legs, seeing "XL Engine destruction" and having no idea what actually happened.

I've actually seen this happen to a friend of mine recently, my friend lost his leg in a Shad; I think it was a light hunter build that could only scare off lights) and I think he must've had AMS ammo in his leg or something, but his leg got cored instantly when he tried to pop up and snipe someone and then he blew up... Must be that ammo on a weak leg. He told me that it said XL Engine destruction, but only one shot to his leg with PPCs; I told him to adjust the build as he got a big fat zero in the match for damage.

[LauLiao]

Victor Morson, on 11 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think 99% of the people here claiming that they never die to their legs are probably dying to their legs, seeing "XL Engine destruction" and having no idea what actually happened.

Nope, because the little paper doll would still show a leg missing if that were the case, but it doesn't.

[Scurry]

Victor Morson, on 11 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think 99% of the people here claiming that they never die to their legs are probably dying to their legs, seeing "XL Engine destruction" and having no idea what actually happened.

Honestly, different brackets probably have different behaviours. You play with the more capable - so they hit legs. Many of us often don't. People go for side torsi in my matches, and the only thing hitting my legs is LRMs. Isn't there a possibility that people really might have a different experience from you? My leg armor is unbreached almost every time I have died, so it is definitely not as you say.

[aniviron]

Victor Morson, on 11 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think 99% of the people here claiming that they never die to their legs are probably dying to their legs, seeing "XL Engine destruction" and having no idea what actually happened.

It lists when you take damage from ammo explosions in the list of things that damage you. I don't run many ammo-heavy mechs, but I very distinctly remember a forum kerfuffle from months back when players were upset that it listed AMMO EXPLOSION in all caps on the damage list when their gauss rifle blew up; the devs later changed it so that ammo explosions are listed separately from gauss explosions. So again, if it doesn't say your ammo blew up, that's not what killed you.

[luxebo]

Scurry, on 11 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Honestly, different brackets probably have different behaviours. You play with the more capable - so they hit legs. Many of us often don't. People go for side torsi in my matches, and the only thing hitting my legs is LRMs. Isn't there a possibility that people really might have a different experience from you? My leg armor is unbreached almost every time I have died, so it is definitely not as you say.

It does depends on the mech and the skill level of the people you are playing against. For example, certain tanky mechs often get legged, like Stalker and Victor, fast mediums like Shadow Hawk or Centurion, and most lights plus the Cicada often get hit quickly in the legs. Not many would go for the legs in an Atlas or something similar to that (though I've been legged a fair amount of times actually in the Atlas trial, much to my surprise.)

aniviron, on 11 February 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

It lists when you take damage from ammo explosions in the list of things that damage you. I don't run many ammo-heavy mechs, but I very distinctly remember a forum kerfuffle from months back when players were upset that it listed AMMO EXPLOSION in all caps on the damage list when their gauss rifle blew up; the devs later changed it so that ammo explosions are listed separately from gauss explosions. So again, if it doesn't say your ammo blew up, that's not what killed you.

It indirectly caused you to die. Doesn't mean that's the only factor that killed you, or even the main one at all, but it allowed you to be killed in another fashion. I did notice this in a rare few situations, maybe I just get unlucky/higher leveled players against me. One thing is that if you get legged and then your torso goes right after, which is what I believe Victor is trying to say, and that it's the ammo and the weak armor in the legs.

[Scurry]

luxebo, on 11 February 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

It does depends on the mech and the skill level of the people you are playing against. For example, certain tanky mechs often get legged, like Stalker and Victor, fast mediums like Shadow Hawk or Centurion, and most lights plus the Cicada often get hit quickly in the legs. Not many would go for the legs in an Atlas or something similar to that (though I've been legged a fair amount of times actually in the Atlas trial, much to my surprise.)

Exactly what I meant. My Cataphracts generally do not take much leg damage - and they've been what I've been playing lately. My Jenners put ammo in the side torsi, since they practically never get hit, as opposed to the legs. My Shadow Hawks leave ammo in the arms and CT. Of course, I always use the head slot first unless it's got something else there.

I guess the key point is that there is no hard-and-fast rule about where to put your ammo - you have to think first.

But of course, combining ammo and significant armor stripping is a no-no.