96 replies to this topic

[Roachbugg]

In every match I've played in my atlai in the last few weeks, I seem to loose my side torsos in less than three seconds and then get cored shortly.

Since when is it the norm for an atlas to die faster than a highlander or an xl victor or a god damn battle master. I'm just getting completely plowed its almost to the point that I wanna hang up my atlai and just get two more highlanders. Im sick of this its no fun what is the point of being in the biggest baddest mech in the inner sphere if you cant do anything?

[Rebas Kradd]

The very fact that it's the biggest baddest mech in the game is why you die. People target you first. Plus you're slow and easier to hit, so you make a more inviting target. Plus if you're a DDC, killing you has the added benefit of disabling ECM.

I'm not sure WHY everyone targets you first, really...the Jagermechs and poptarting mechs are really the ones doing all the damage. Every time I'm in a game I prioritize about four other chassis (Highlander or Victor or Jagermech or Cataphract) before I start shooting an Atlas. But most people see the big, hulking Atlas silhouette and go "OMG SHOOT HIMZ!!!!"

Are you rushing into battle first? Because right now, the whole traditional "big mech = damage soak for your team" thing doesn't work too well. There's just too many mechs and too much pinpoint damage for anyone to be a tank. You just die, quickly.

If you're an Atlas, you'll need some extra mobility from a bigger engine and some tactical smarts to get by. You shouldn't be the first in the arena - nobody should be, really - and you'll want some longer-range firepower in order to wage war at multiple ranges. Pick up a STD 325 engine at the very least, I run a 340. Which variant are you running?

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 10 February 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[Roachbugg]

and like one minuet after i make this post i get an 869 damage game with three kills and 7 assists.

[Void Angel]

Roachbugg, on 10 February 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

In every match I've played in my atlai in the last few weeks, I seem to loose my side torsos in less than three seconds and then get cored shortly.

Since when is it the norm for an atlas to die faster than a highlander or an xl victor or a god damn battle master. I'm just getting completely plowed its almost to the point that I wanna hang up my atlai and just get two more highlanders. Im sick of this its no fun what is the point of being in the biggest baddest mech in the inner sphere if you cant do anything?

Short answer: because meta.

Long answer: The punch-damage metagame has had a punishing effect recently on brawlers in general, and on slow brawlers in particular. The changes aimed at curbing the high-alpha "PPC meta" (heat scale, Gauss Rifle changes, projectile speeds, jump shake) were marginally successful, but mostly just caused meta builds to be made with different ballistics - instead of everyone using a Highlander with 3 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle, now everyone is using a different Highlander with 2 PPCs and a brace of UAC/5s. The meta has been curbed, but jump snipers can still defeat and gain disproportionate benefits from cover, and when the going got tough, the weak went dakka. So now you still have a strong punch-damage poptart presence, but with the addition of lots of Gauss Snipers and small-bore autocannon 'mechs to back them up.

This punishes brawlers, particularly slow ones - because when players step out of cover at the wrong time, they can suddenly find themselves plastered by a long-range AC 'mech and engaged by three or four enemy poptarts for instant crippling action! This leads to a long, downward spiral where more and more people shy away from brawling builds, or even refuse to leave cover with brawlers, because they've been punished over and over again for trying to close the gap in the past. If you're into dark humor, watch an assault brawler's response to taking damage - nine times out of ten, he'll stop what he's doing and back desperately for the nearest rock. All of this causes the range to be left open for longer, which is why LRM boats were making a resurgence even before the trial assault was that XL Stalker deathtrap.

That doesn't mean you can't brawl - I still do it, and it's still fun when it works. But you have to get a good handle on what your team is doing, and be willing to hide like they do until the right moment. You have to position yourself, and have a good idea of what's going on where on the battlefield, and learn to work with a team that often won't talk to you except to whine at you for trying to talk to them. Sometimes you get a good team that's willing to push - and a good four-man whose team will push with them can shatter an enemy force who're still captured by the "hiding at them" mentality. But the onus of skill is all on you, because if you expose yourself at any but the perfect time, the poptarts and dakkamechs and lurmwarriors will target your center torso and simply hammer down. After all, you're the only thing they can see, because your teammates are all behind rocks.

And what the team learns from your pyre of immolation and shame is that brawling sucks - need more dakka. The spiral continues.

This is not to say that you should give up brawling and sell your soul for a Hidelander. Far from it; PGI is still doing balancing, and I'm pretty sure the meta will change, and change, and change again. Just be aware of what you're dealing with, and remember that while your teammates may be doing a stupid thing by abandoning you when you charge (at the right time,) they're doing it because the game has trained them to be that way.

[Harleqwin]

Well said Void Angel!

[That Dawg]

Void Angel, on 10 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Short answer: because meta.

Long answer: Brilliant stuff

+1 to that long post. There is wisdom in that caterwaul, LOL
All true. I'm saving my DDC, why..dunno...its been a while since I laid down 900 damage in it.
Seems a variety of builds are poor choices for soloing pugs, and in 4 man drops we will often take 2-3 and roll stomp as the cowards suddenly realize they are about to be in a game that ended before they came out of hiding
-Why bother taking a slow fortress when one of my spiders can do 600 damage in a good game, in a bad bad game, still take home 40K in cbills?
Imagine if we were paying for repairs? DDC would be an extinct legend.

[Reptilizer]

Void Angel, on 10 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Short answer: because meta.

Long answer: true story

Should get a sticky...
Goes for all brawler builds really.

[Khobai]

atlases are not the best assaults.

theyre slow. extremely easy to pinpoint. lacks weapon hardpoints for its tonnage. hardpoints are low on the mech.

The highlander and victor are outright better. thats not to say you cant do well in an atlas, you can, but it definitely has a higher skill cap than the other assaults.

Assaults need some rebalancing. Assaults should lose speed tweak and gain armor tweak instead. basically trading speed for damage reduction. Assaults dont need to be fast, but they do need to soak damage better.

Edited by Khobai, 13 February 2014 - 03:09 AM.

[Evil Ed]

Pugging in an Atlas is difficult. You'll probably not get the support you need, and when you tank the pugs don't respond by focusing down the enemies exposing themselfs when trying to hit you. Grouped up in a 4-man it's another deal. A pilot in Atlas who knows what to do supported by 3 firesupport is still something really deadly. Brawling is fun, that's how MWO should be.

Edited by Evil Ed, 13 February 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Rasc4l]

Roachbugg, on 10 February 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

In every match I've played in my atlai in the last few weeks, I seem to loose my side torsos in less than three seconds and then get cored shortly.

Since when is it the norm for an atlas to die faster than a highlander or an xl victor or a god damn battle master. I'm just getting completely plowed its almost to the point that I wanna hang up my atlai and just get two more highlanders. Im sick of this its no fun what is the point of being in the biggest baddest mech in the inner sphere if you cant do anything?

1/6 of all my XP has been gained with Atlas DC. It's my favorite. I only run brawler builds 2xML+AC20+3xSRM6+A+300STD. In addition to the fine meta discussion by Void Angel, which pretty much answers your question already, I'd offer these points:

1. The hardest thing with an Atlas is movement. When coming around the corner and seeing the HGN, Jäger and Battlemaster all turn towards you and start shooting, it is always too late. You might still be able to get away but probably with side torsos gone. This is the reason you are never in a rush. You will always carefully judge your movement and know at least 30 s beforehand where you will be then because your slow mech will anyway lag behind your intentions. Stand still before corners to let seismic sensor let you know if someone's around the corner. Especially with such brawler build, you will never cross open spaces alone. Alpine is an excellent map to learn to play brawler atlas, because it's difficult to do there and you are usually disadvantaged (i.e. the best position to learn).

2. This second point is the bug part i.e. it is extremely difficult to use my main weapon, which delivers 36 points of damage. Yes, I've occasionally dropped the red torsoed medium from mid-flight with SRMs but such occurences are extremely rare. I've adapted to the bad SRM hit detection by shooting only stationary mechs or mechs, which are turning and have a decrease in speed due to that. Especially with lights, the best way is to shoot one leg off with AC/lasers and then kill the mech with SRM volleys.

[Roachbugg]

Hmm switching from skirmish to playing assault really helped.

[990Dreams]

Could you post a Smurfy of your build?

[Buckminster]

As someone that just recently bought a Firebrand in the latest sale, I never realized exactly how brutal dakka builds could be. I set it up like a Rifleman - 2 AC/5s, 2 large lasers, 2 medium lasers - and it's wicked. I had a couple matches where I'd see that assault brawler try and move out, and it really surprised me how quickly I'd tear through and get a kill once I set my sights on him. The big slow guys actually seem to go down faster.

[Voivode]

Void Angel, on 10 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Short answer: because meta.

Long answer: The punch-damage metagame has had a punishing effect recently on brawlers in general, and on slow brawlers in particular. The changes aimed at curbing the high-alpha "PPC meta" (heat scale, Gauss Rifle changes, projectile speeds, jump shake) were marginally successful, but mostly just caused meta builds to be made with different ballistics - instead of everyone using a Highlander with 3 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle, now everyone is using a different Highlander with 2 PPCs and a brace of UAC/5s. The meta has been curbed, but jump snipers can still defeat and gain disproportionate benefits from cover, and when the going got tough, the weak went dakka. So now you still have a strong punch-damage poptart presence, but with the addition of lots of Gauss Snipers and small-bore autocannon 'mechs to back them up.

This punishes brawlers, particularly slow ones - because when players step out of cover at the wrong time, they can suddenly find themselves plastered by a long-range AC 'mech and engaged by three or four enemy poptarts for instant crippling action! This leads to a long, downward spiral where more and more people shy away from brawling builds, or even refuse to leave cover with brawlers, because they've been punished over and over again for trying to close the gap in the past. If you're into dark humor, watch an assault brawler's response to taking damage - nine times out of ten, he'll stop what he's doing and back desperately for the nearest rock. All of this causes the range to be left open for longer, which is why LRM boats were making a resurgence even before the trial assault was that XL Stalker deathtrap.

That doesn't mean you can't brawl - I still do it, and it's still fun when it works. But you have to get a good handle on what your team is doing, and be willing to hide like they do until the right moment. You have to position yourself, and have a good idea of what's going on where on the battlefield, and learn to work with a team that often won't talk to you except to whine at you for trying to talk to them. Sometimes you get a good team that's willing to push - and a good four-man whose team will push with them can shatter an enemy force who're still captured by the "hiding at them" mentality. But the onus of skill is all on you, because if you expose yourself at any but the perfect time, the poptarts and dakkamechs and lurmwarriors will target your center torso and simply hammer down. After all, you're the only thing they can see, because your teammates are all behind rocks.

And what the team learns from your pyre of immolation and shame is that brawling sucks - need more dakka. The spiral continues.

This is not to say that you should give up brawling and sell your soul for a Hidelander. Far from it; PGI is still doing balancing, and I'm pretty sure the meta will change, and change, and change again. Just be aware of what you're dealing with, and remember that while your teammates may be doing a stupid thing by abandoning you when you charge (at the right time,) they're doing it because the game has trained them to be that way.

This so much.

A small and organized brawler group can tear through 12 pop tarts like they're made of wet paper. A single brawler will be weapons calibration for pop tarts. You will need to learn to use terrain to get close. When crossing the open I'll recommend you use the same system they taught us in the Army.

"I'm up, he sees me, I'm down"

You get up and run and in the time it takes you to say the above sentence you must be at your next area of cover/concealment in the prone position or you have a high chance of being shot.

In MWO you can't really expect to do that precisely in an Atlas, but keep in mind the general idea. If you are leaving cover, have your next covered position picked out first and move there with all haste. Valleys and canyons can be used in many instances to come in "under their guns", which means they either don't see you or are unable to depress their weapons far enough to hit you.

Happy hunting!

[Koniving]

You cannot move on your own. You need to move as a group.

The only time this works... is if all the other guys were much bigger threats. My weapons were LRM-10, SRM-6, AC/5, AC/2, 4 ML. I wasn't considered a big enough threat so I wasn't focused. In return, I handed them their backsides with the help of my camera.


If you're packing AC/20 or twin UAC/5s and 3 SRM-6s... yeah you're dying first regardless.

Murphy's laws of mechanized combat, #...not sure which.

Quote

Try to look unimportant. They may be low on ammunition.

Note in the video match, it was me and the voiceless commando. The other voices are in a different match. Thus Atlas and Commando premade.

[Roachbugg]

DavidHurricane, on 13 February 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Could you post a Smurfy of your build?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1d20ece3e4e6a1 pretty much a standard ddc build i dropped down srm 6ds to 4 a while back to pack the larges on so i could do something to something more than 300m away It works fine i just kept getting plowed ive noticed a huge change in my survival now that i stopped playing skirmish tho guess there are just maxiimum meta tards there.

[990Dreams]

Roachbugg, on 13 February 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1d20ece3e4e6a1 pretty much a standard ddc build i dropped down srm 6ds to 4 a while back to pack the larges on so i could do something to something more than 300m away It works fine i just kept getting plowed ive noticed a huge change in my survival now that i stopped playing skirmish tho guess there are just maxiimum meta tards there.

Not bad, but an Atlas is often engaged at long ranges (if your enemy is smart).

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b6bd6d0c126a4c7

That is a semi-all range build. (you'd want some CASE)

[Voivode]

Here's a build I've been running on my DDC for a while, does a nice job brawling. Note the dual LBX in place of the AC20 (better heat and higher fire rate) and the lowered leg armor (still plenty, but frees up a little weight. If you'd like, trade a heat sink for an additional ton of SRM ammo.

[Dawnstealer]

Atlases, especially with all the jump-sniping 2PPC/2AC5 Victors out there, have become a little more tricky, but they can definitely brawl. Move with your team, and add supporting fire. Most importantly, kind of act like a shepherd: move in the thick of your team rather than out in front. If people are firing OVER your closer teammates to hit you, then you're doing your job.

Also have AMS if you don't already. Early in the fight, use as much cover as possible. Don't get too far ahead and NEVER get caught on your own.

[Buckminster]

Roachbugg, on 13 February 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

ive noticed a huge change in my survival now that i stopped playing skirmish tho guess there are just maxiimum meta tards there.

Actually, I think that part of it is that in Skirmish there is no alternate victory condition, so people are much more likely to group up and stick together, which will spell instant death for any brawler trying to get into the ranks.

Nothing says "target" like an Atlas DDC, and if you move towards a large group, they're ALL going to shoot you. It's survivable if it's a group of 3-4. If it's a group of 10-12, you're doomed.